09-18-2012, 01:21 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-18-2012, 05:07 AM by FireIceTalon.)
You must remember, even many scientists are men and women of faith. Science and religion of course, are incompatible, but I think most scientists know this and they keep their religion out of the profession anyways - since it is known that all religions rely entirely on faith while science can be tested and proven empirically. Nor would I say that a person is necessarily lacking in intelligence if they believe in a deity - this is simply untrue and overly deterministic, and again, many prominent scientists are religious.
Marx called religion "the opium of the masses", and while I generally agree, it should still be taken into the context for which he was speaking - which was in class societies. Religion itself is not only a tool used by the ruling class to pacify and divide the working class - it is a product of and necessitation for alienation in class society. When the proletariat experiences alienation, religion is sort of a crutch to bring them a 'false' happiness, that masks them from the genuine happiness that would be obtained in Communist society - they in turn see the afterlife as their hope if they just subscribe to the principles of religion, not realizing their chains. In Communist society, religion loses its power, because there is no State apparatus to use it as a control device, nor is there any alienation in Communist society for religion to be a so-called crutch. I think suppressing religious beliefs though, just because Marx hated religion, kinda defeats the principles and values of being a Communist - which is to free humanity - primarily the working class, from exploitation and to have not only tolerance, but a genuine respect, for all cultures, races, religious beliefs, sexual orientations, etc.
Now, some aspects of some religions would not be tolerated in Communism, those which allow or provide justification for the subjugation or discrimination of others - such as the oppressive nature in Radical Islam toward women - this no doubt would not be allowed or tolerated, but it wouldn't exist to begin with because the old order of class society would be loooong gone. Peoples behavior, nature, outlook on life, and so forth would be radically different than it is now. In Socialist society, it is a different story since this stage still has elements of the old order present, but the transition from Capitalism to DOTP to Socialism to full-blown Communism is a very very long one. And during that long process, the views on religion, and quite possibly the religions themselves, would have changed drastically over many generations. To put it as you did, religion as a 'cult' would probably even cease to exist even before pure Communism is reached, but personal religious beliefs would still probably be around, and I don't really see a problem with it. Now, something like Nationalism, would be a different story altogether. Nationalism, by its very nature, is reactionary, borderline racist, and would not be compatible with Communism. Religion and Nationalism are both social constructs to be sure, but the first one was not developed as a tool by the ruling class to suppress lower classes - it developed simply because there was no science or prior knowledge of history to explain things. Nationalism, however, DID develop as a tool to propagate cultural hegemony, war, xenophobia, racism, and as a divisive tool to split the working class into opposing factions, even though their class interests are one and the same regardless of nationality.
Religion and Marxism are not compatible, but that isn't to say that Communism and religion are not - remember Communism (like Capitalism) is a social and economic material condition of society, it is observably tangible - Marxism is a science for analyzing and critiquing dynamic economic/social relationships in class societies that actually involves using the scientific method in the same way scientists do in Historical Anthropology or even the hard sciences. Some of us believe that Communism and religion are completely incompatible, some do not - I am in the latter camp. In my opinion, oppressing personal religious beliefs only feeds the stereotype that all Communists are blood thirsty dictators that want to control everyone. I'm not a religious expert, but to my knowledge there is no religion that is explicitly and intrinsically anti-Communist. People should be free to hold their religious beliefs in the privacy of their own home, regardless of what type of society they live in. It is when people try to force that religion onto others when it becomes problematic. But again, that in itself is result of and necessitation of cultural hegemony in class society. In a classless, stateless, borderless society, this doesn't seem possible much less probable. Who the hell knows, these are only my thoughts on the role religion would undertake in Communism - the truth is the material conditions leading up to it, depending on the changes in culture and social relationships that organically transcend and form between Socialism and pure Communism, will be the determining factor for where religion will be, which of course cannot be predicted. It was the same with the transformation of society from Feudalism to Capitalism, no one could predict the role religion (or even how Capitalism itself would be constructed) would have in this society at the outset of the French Revolution, its role was determined entirely by existing social conditions that existed as a result of the Revolution.
At the end of the day though, the solution is to abolish class systems and the suppressive State that necessitate and protect them , not to abolish religion(s).
Marx called religion "the opium of the masses", and while I generally agree, it should still be taken into the context for which he was speaking - which was in class societies. Religion itself is not only a tool used by the ruling class to pacify and divide the working class - it is a product of and necessitation for alienation in class society. When the proletariat experiences alienation, religion is sort of a crutch to bring them a 'false' happiness, that masks them from the genuine happiness that would be obtained in Communist society - they in turn see the afterlife as their hope if they just subscribe to the principles of religion, not realizing their chains. In Communist society, religion loses its power, because there is no State apparatus to use it as a control device, nor is there any alienation in Communist society for religion to be a so-called crutch. I think suppressing religious beliefs though, just because Marx hated religion, kinda defeats the principles and values of being a Communist - which is to free humanity - primarily the working class, from exploitation and to have not only tolerance, but a genuine respect, for all cultures, races, religious beliefs, sexual orientations, etc.
Now, some aspects of some religions would not be tolerated in Communism, those which allow or provide justification for the subjugation or discrimination of others - such as the oppressive nature in Radical Islam toward women - this no doubt would not be allowed or tolerated, but it wouldn't exist to begin with because the old order of class society would be loooong gone. Peoples behavior, nature, outlook on life, and so forth would be radically different than it is now. In Socialist society, it is a different story since this stage still has elements of the old order present, but the transition from Capitalism to DOTP to Socialism to full-blown Communism is a very very long one. And during that long process, the views on religion, and quite possibly the religions themselves, would have changed drastically over many generations. To put it as you did, religion as a 'cult' would probably even cease to exist even before pure Communism is reached, but personal religious beliefs would still probably be around, and I don't really see a problem with it. Now, something like Nationalism, would be a different story altogether. Nationalism, by its very nature, is reactionary, borderline racist, and would not be compatible with Communism. Religion and Nationalism are both social constructs to be sure, but the first one was not developed as a tool by the ruling class to suppress lower classes - it developed simply because there was no science or prior knowledge of history to explain things. Nationalism, however, DID develop as a tool to propagate cultural hegemony, war, xenophobia, racism, and as a divisive tool to split the working class into opposing factions, even though their class interests are one and the same regardless of nationality.
Religion and Marxism are not compatible, but that isn't to say that Communism and religion are not - remember Communism (like Capitalism) is a social and economic material condition of society, it is observably tangible - Marxism is a science for analyzing and critiquing dynamic economic/social relationships in class societies that actually involves using the scientific method in the same way scientists do in Historical Anthropology or even the hard sciences. Some of us believe that Communism and religion are completely incompatible, some do not - I am in the latter camp. In my opinion, oppressing personal religious beliefs only feeds the stereotype that all Communists are blood thirsty dictators that want to control everyone. I'm not a religious expert, but to my knowledge there is no religion that is explicitly and intrinsically anti-Communist. People should be free to hold their religious beliefs in the privacy of their own home, regardless of what type of society they live in. It is when people try to force that religion onto others when it becomes problematic. But again, that in itself is result of and necessitation of cultural hegemony in class society. In a classless, stateless, borderless society, this doesn't seem possible much less probable. Who the hell knows, these are only my thoughts on the role religion would undertake in Communism - the truth is the material conditions leading up to it, depending on the changes in culture and social relationships that organically transcend and form between Socialism and pure Communism, will be the determining factor for where religion will be, which of course cannot be predicted. It was the same with the transformation of society from Feudalism to Capitalism, no one could predict the role religion (or even how Capitalism itself would be constructed) would have in this society at the outset of the French Revolution, its role was determined entirely by existing social conditions that existed as a result of the Revolution.
At the end of the day though, the solution is to abolish class systems and the suppressive State that necessitate and protect them , not to abolish religion(s).
https://www.youtube.com/user/FireIceTalon
"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (on capitalist laws and institutions)
"Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class, made into law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economic conditions of the existence of your class." - Marx (on capitalist laws and institutions)