07-17-2003, 12:38 PM
I guess I shouldn't have dismissed your other points out of hand, so I will address them specifically:
Item farming is not removed, only farming bosses, and I am glad this is gone. In my testing of the beta Regular monsters drop better making magic find even more powerful because there is more stuff you can kill to get good items, so magic find removal hasn't happened.
Experience gains are not descreased overall until much later. Early experience gains are higher, the new high level experience penalties really don't start to make a difference until around L80 (most of what I have seen says getting to 80 is faster), so while that change is sorta there, it isn't a huge deal, though I agree it keeps 99's off the ladder for a little bit longer. Of course it still isn't hard to get to 90, and in classic 80+ was hard because Diablo himself was the only thing you could get real exp from, that isn't the case anymore. You also can't finish the game (kill hell diablo, well Baal now) at L40 easily like you could in classic. So playing through the game makes you naturally much much higher than anything in classic (70-80 in 1.09 I haven't gotten all the way through in 1.10 beta just yet to see).
Actually crafted are potenially the most powerful item types now, not rares. Runewords have a lot to say about that as well. Gambling will be back some, but no where near where it was in the early days, because there are execptional and elite uniques that are hugely powerful and easier to plan around. The new candy is not outweighed. Rares were a necessity because there was no other option, there are a ton of other options now.
The difficulty has been increased, but that doesn't immediately point to the return of the annoying atmosphere that you are talking about. Most of the difficulty increases simply make the game even more item dependent (this is exactly what the larger resists penalties do). Of course classic was much easier than current D2. If it wasn't then I don't know how L28 chars were able to beat Hell Diablo without a lot of problems. The only thing that was harder about classic play was getting to high levels, they have brought that back a bit, but with so many more high level monsters it is still a lot easier to get to high levels than in classic. As you yourself said the more significant changes that I already talked about vastly outweigh those.
I can't believe you tried to explain the elementary importance of competition either. I well understand it, but D2 is a designed a competition of the player vs the computer. Not the player vs computer vs other players. I can be that, and it can be just player vs player and player with player vs CPU, and player with player vs player with player, etc. That is part of the beauty of the game, it can be a lot of things. As I said, this patch looks to be trying to make lots of styles more enjoyable, through other more important changes. It is not trying to go back to 1.01 - 1.03 days (1.00 was never playable on the realms).
Why is the ladder significant? Because it is changes a lot of things. It is soooo much more than just who can get a char to the top first. It is, as you say a clean start. That means I can trade again. That means I can play PvP again if I want to. I can't do those now because most of the people out there are using duped or hacked items. For me and lots of others it has nothing to do with being on the ladder rankings and everything to do with being on a clean realm. It has very little or nothing to do with the environment of the early days either. There are more reasons why people are excited for the ladder that have nothing to do with competition of the sort you are talking about (because as I said there are lots of forms of competition and you are talking about a specific type). Pointing to people wanting the ladder, with a little qualifier, as a prime reason for Blizzard wanting to wholy return the game to one type of play style and atmosphere is silly because there are so many other variables in it. Some of them I pointed out. So, no it isn't a coincidence, when the ladder effects such a huge number of things, and benefits so many play styles what other change would you expect?
So I will say it again, this patch is not aiming D2 backwards, it is aiming it somewhere new. It is helping out a lot of styles of play, yours included. It is not that narrow focused. Many of the other changes you didn't talk about change the game a lot more, and they change it a lot more than your proposal.
Quote:The increased difficulty, the severely decreased experience gains and monster levels, the elimination of boss farming for items, rares being back on top as the most potentially powerful item type, gambling being relevant once more - All these are changes meant to bring D2 back to it's core. I guess Blizzard finally realized that things were better before, as anyone who has been with D2 since day one realized a week after LoD was released.
Item farming is not removed, only farming bosses, and I am glad this is gone. In my testing of the beta Regular monsters drop better making magic find even more powerful because there is more stuff you can kill to get good items, so magic find removal hasn't happened.
Experience gains are not descreased overall until much later. Early experience gains are higher, the new high level experience penalties really don't start to make a difference until around L80 (most of what I have seen says getting to 80 is faster), so while that change is sorta there, it isn't a huge deal, though I agree it keeps 99's off the ladder for a little bit longer. Of course it still isn't hard to get to 90, and in classic 80+ was hard because Diablo himself was the only thing you could get real exp from, that isn't the case anymore. You also can't finish the game (kill hell diablo, well Baal now) at L40 easily like you could in classic. So playing through the game makes you naturally much much higher than anything in classic (70-80 in 1.09 I haven't gotten all the way through in 1.10 beta just yet to see).
Actually crafted are potenially the most powerful item types now, not rares. Runewords have a lot to say about that as well. Gambling will be back some, but no where near where it was in the early days, because there are execptional and elite uniques that are hugely powerful and easier to plan around. The new candy is not outweighed. Rares were a necessity because there was no other option, there are a ton of other options now.
The difficulty has been increased, but that doesn't immediately point to the return of the annoying atmosphere that you are talking about. Most of the difficulty increases simply make the game even more item dependent (this is exactly what the larger resists penalties do). Of course classic was much easier than current D2. If it wasn't then I don't know how L28 chars were able to beat Hell Diablo without a lot of problems. The only thing that was harder about classic play was getting to high levels, they have brought that back a bit, but with so many more high level monsters it is still a lot easier to get to high levels than in classic. As you yourself said the more significant changes that I already talked about vastly outweigh those.
I can't believe you tried to explain the elementary importance of competition either. I well understand it, but D2 is a designed a competition of the player vs the computer. Not the player vs computer vs other players. I can be that, and it can be just player vs player and player with player vs CPU, and player with player vs player with player, etc. That is part of the beauty of the game, it can be a lot of things. As I said, this patch looks to be trying to make lots of styles more enjoyable, through other more important changes. It is not trying to go back to 1.01 - 1.03 days (1.00 was never playable on the realms).
Why is the ladder significant? Because it is changes a lot of things. It is soooo much more than just who can get a char to the top first. It is, as you say a clean start. That means I can trade again. That means I can play PvP again if I want to. I can't do those now because most of the people out there are using duped or hacked items. For me and lots of others it has nothing to do with being on the ladder rankings and everything to do with being on a clean realm. It has very little or nothing to do with the environment of the early days either. There are more reasons why people are excited for the ladder that have nothing to do with competition of the sort you are talking about (because as I said there are lots of forms of competition and you are talking about a specific type). Pointing to people wanting the ladder, with a little qualifier, as a prime reason for Blizzard wanting to wholy return the game to one type of play style and atmosphere is silly because there are so many other variables in it. Some of them I pointed out. So, no it isn't a coincidence, when the ladder effects such a huge number of things, and benefits so many play styles what other change would you expect?
So I will say it again, this patch is not aiming D2 backwards, it is aiming it somewhere new. It is helping out a lot of styles of play, yours included. It is not that narrow focused. Many of the other changes you didn't talk about change the game a lot more, and they change it a lot more than your proposal.
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It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.
It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.