Synergies.

[WarBlade]

I have not tested myself, so I trully cannot say, but it has been said numerous times, and by numerous people, that skills are no longer viable on their own, for the most part.

In some cases that's true, but you're incorrect in assuming I came up with such a statement. In fact a Sorceress of mine converted straight to 1.10 was doing fine in Act 5 Hell with a Maxed Hyra and Mastery with only one point in each of the synergy skills, and even she paled in comparison to an Amazon using Goldstrike to deliver Freezing Arrow while having only one point in the synergies. So no, some skills beg for support, some skills don't and many skills have power relative external influences impacting on all parts of the scale.

I don't rightly see what having said or not said what I have done or intend to do in regards to balancing the skills has much of anything to do with my questions on synergies.

Internal skill balancing had no relevance to anything in my posts that I can think of at all. And then you came out with " You rant on about imbalancing the game by messing with synergies, yet you do so by assuming that the base skills themselves are still imbalanced." Anything I said about synergies was purely comparative and general, in keeping with your original question. You brought up that separate issue of balancing the skills yourself.

The two are wholly seperate.

Gaaaaah! Of course they're separate! So why did you bring it up in the first place??? :lol:

yet at the same time linked. However, I wasn't looking for people to balance synergies for me, any more than I was looking for them to balance the skills in general. I was looking for ideas on how synergies should interact with other skills, and with one another. Don't confuse two seperate (though linked) issues.

Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow. Ow.
Hey keyboard facial imprints come back out again right? :unsure:

As to your "generator only" ideas, I would be interested in hearing more about your ideas on that. Specifically, what skills, and how should they be altered?

The 'stickable' the Paladin Auras. The synergy benefits and only the synergy benefits should be Paladin only, while the aura behaves 'unsynergized' when planted on partied units. Otherwise the synergies get multiplied by the number of partied units they are stuck to. The imbalance doesn't happen within the character itself, it happens in conjunction with external influences - Imagine what 40 points invested towards Fanaticism might be like and go stand next to two multishot Amazons, then stick 40 towards Holy Shock and go stand next to two multishot Amazons . . . You see a difference now right?

Blizzard's workaround was to leave synergy upgrades off the multiplicative Auras and for that matter they also left supportive Warcries in duration modifying territory only, there are no Curse multipliers, etc. Practically everything that provides upgrades to another partied character got left off the list, and with good reason.

And, for that matter, what is so wrong with the Paladin granting the benefit of his auras to other players? How is that any different than, say, the Necromancer with his Curses? Why is it such a bad thing? I just don't understand this vehemient opposition to the Paladin's auras, and more specifically his synergy bonuses, being granted to others, especially since 99% of all synergies are based on the BASE skill levels, and thus do not gain benefit from +skill items.

+ Skill items are another irrelevant side step from the debate. <_<

Amazons and Barbarians aren't getting anything they weren't getting before, from Paladin auras, so why the fierce opposition?

They won't? Well not if you can exclude them, sure, but if you can't and you want to do any of the following . . .

Might - Blessed Aim, Concentration, Fanaticism
Blessed Aim - Might, Concentration, Fanaticism
Concentration - Might, Blessed Aim, Fanatacism
Fanaticism - Might, Blessed Aim, Concentration

. . . then I expect they will. In spades.

And once again you spout off without giving a single, credible example as to what you are talking about. Just what, precisely, do you mean?

I present to you the Holy Shock/Fanaticism comparison I gave above.

I can see your point about plugging synergies together based on aesthetic value, but truly, that is how most of the skill layouts were made in the first place! To ignore that is to ignore the entire base setup of the skills, which is utterly foolish.

And to bypass the fact that there are some trees and parts of trees that have no consistant theme on certain characters is equally flawed. I've never ignored the fact that some skill trees maintain consistant themes, I'm simply pointing out that you can't necessarily apply the same "stick to aesthetics" rule across the board and hope it will work.

Alright. Let's get back to something that was touched upon, by yourself and myself, earlier on. How do we utilize synergies to make current less-than-desirable / -viable skills more attractive and viable? Do we pick certain sets of skills to be synergistic with one another, thereby granting the user a primary and secondary skill on one little package, while ALSO running into that other wall we did not want (namely, forcing players down pre-planned skill pathways)?

I'd start by looking at the undesirable skills individually and hammering out a plan to fit each class based on what you see. Come up with some rules like the "this kind of skill can't enhance damage" rules you see throughout 1.10. Then go back to tackling the skills individually again. I'd do it in a frame work something like this:

Step 1
Make some rules to govern ongoing skill balancing while keeping Synergies controlled and balanced.

1.a. Establish what Synergies are supposed to achieve.
1.b. Define the purpose of each skill tree and establish how each will use synergies. In some cases custom rule sets will need to be generated for specific skills within trees.

Step 2
Sort out where the Synergies will be and what they will do, before adding in values.

2.a. Apply rough values in keeping with previous rules.
2.b. Attenuate levels to balance.
2.c. Investigate the 'wishful thinking' element for possible further spice.

It's a tough path to tread, but it doesn't HAVE to be so black & white as you are painting it. Maybe it's because you've never done modding before, or maybe you're just too stuck in your own way of thinking and viewing to see "outside the box", so to speak, but I just don't see that synergies have to be this all-or-nothing thing, where they're either an absolute necessity or a game-breaking imbalance. There HAS to be a middle road. My problem with you is you either can't or won't see that.

Oh, I've done modding before, just not with D2. Truth be known, I consider my tinkering with rules in the old paper and dice RPGs to be a far more valuable background for D2 related thoughts.

As for supposing what "I can't or won't see"? <_< I doubt you are trying to piss me off, but that was just outright insulting ok? <_<