10-24-2011, 09:22 AM
Spillovers from the other thread, which has wandered waaay off topic...
Oh, right. Mining/logging, education and health care are up. One tiny sector, and two service sectors largely on the public dime. Every other sector is down, some by a little, some by a lot. Overall, employment is *way* down.
I'm saying they spent the money on keeping unemployed people on unemployment insurance, so they don't get kicked out of their homes, or starve to death. You're saying this is "blowing" the money on "something that got us nothing." I'm all for civil conversation, but I'm not misrepresenting you - I'm repeating what you've said, tone and meaning intact. If you think that money was a waste, you're free to believe that, but don't be surprised when other people find this not only incorrect, but more than a little cruel.
Well, they did actually pour quite a lot of money into infrastructure. Nowhere near enough, but then, there are those who oppose all such spending, including on "shovel-ready" projects. Apparently the only stimulus Republicans will agree to is tax cuts, full stop...
Because you don't understand what you're buying? Because a large financial institution is supposed to be more diligent with other peoples' billions than just taking off-the-shelf ratings at face value? Because the ratings agencies are famous in the industry for getting the analysts who can't hack it at Goldman or Merrill? Because hedge funds and insurance companies are, by definition, in the business of managing risk?
Simply pointing to a few debacles is just cherry picking, since that's the fate of most businesses, private or otherwise. If government could guarantee that speculative, innovative companies would be successful, we'd have no need for capitalism at all. They can't, and neither can anyone else.
Treading water is the right thing to do when you're drowning. Look at the construction sector. Look at the unemployment rate. Look at capacity utilization in steel, concrete, and so on. Tell me they wouldn't be able to make good with some bridges to build, some roads to repair. And yes, build energy infrastructure. Build nuclear power plants. Upgrade the energy grid. No time like the present to spend on the future.
-Jester
(10-24-2011, 12:22 AM)kandrathe Wrote: Not all sectors are suffering. Construction and manufacturing are worst off.
Oh, right. Mining/logging, education and health care are up. One tiny sector, and two service sectors largely on the public dime. Every other sector is down, some by a little, some by a lot. Overall, employment is *way* down.
Quote:Because civil conversation is forwarded by pulling out figures of speech and deliberately misrepresenting what was said. I said the government blew the money on something that got us nothing in return. If I said someone was as stubborn as a mule, I'm not calling them an ass.
I'm saying they spent the money on keeping unemployed people on unemployment insurance, so they don't get kicked out of their homes, or starve to death. You're saying this is "blowing" the money on "something that got us nothing." I'm all for civil conversation, but I'm not misrepresenting you - I'm repeating what you've said, tone and meaning intact. If you think that money was a waste, you're free to believe that, but don't be surprised when other people find this not only incorrect, but more than a little cruel.
Quote:They didn't invest in construction or really promoting domestic manufacturing, but instead paid out billions for people to do nothing.
Well, they did actually pour quite a lot of money into infrastructure. Nowhere near enough, but then, there are those who oppose all such spending, including on "shovel-ready" projects. Apparently the only stimulus Republicans will agree to is tax cuts, full stop...
Quote:To be fair though, when Moody or S&P rate a derivative's risk as AAA, why would you necessarily question it?
Because you don't understand what you're buying? Because a large financial institution is supposed to be more diligent with other peoples' billions than just taking off-the-shelf ratings at face value? Because the ratings agencies are famous in the industry for getting the analysts who can't hack it at Goldman or Merrill? Because hedge funds and insurance companies are, by definition, in the business of managing risk?
Quote:Actually, I've always maintained that if government actually knew what they were doing, it would be beneficial to allow them to be the spender of last resort. But, what you get instead are debacles like Solyndra, OptiSolar, or potential ones like Tonopah Solar Energy, or Mesquite Solar, etc.
Simply pointing to a few debacles is just cherry picking, since that's the fate of most businesses, private or otherwise. If government could guarantee that speculative, innovative companies would be successful, we'd have no need for capitalism at all. They can't, and neither can anyone else.
Quote:There are tremendous downside risks for bridges and/or tunnels collapsing, but for building an economy they are treading water. Do it if you have to, but they don't move us closer to our goals. Although, much better to do even this than to pay people to do nothing.
Treading water is the right thing to do when you're drowning. Look at the construction sector. Look at the unemployment rate. Look at capacity utilization in steel, concrete, and so on. Tell me they wouldn't be able to make good with some bridges to build, some roads to repair. And yes, build energy infrastructure. Build nuclear power plants. Upgrade the energy grid. No time like the present to spend on the future.
-Jester