07-10-2003, 01:57 AM
Great analysis thread, Crys, thanks for starting it. I will toss in a few Assassin comments, but won't be able to mess with beta until the Weekend, if at all.
Crowd Control: Stop the mad rush!! Get 'em offa me!!
That to me is Crowd Control's primary purpose. Having slowed them down, you do have to solve the next problem: OK, now that I have stopped them, what do I do with them?
My vote? I think the Assassin gets the best of both worlds, particularly with traps and Death Sentry, and now with Blade Shield and possibly Blade Fury taking on weapon effects without causing desynch. (The Necro bone barriers have a lot of benefits, monster channeling, that can control the fight quite nicely though. )
1. Assassin has a spammable "keep them busy" Shadow Master or Warrior who is no slouch at combat.
2. Mind Blast heeds no resistance, no immunity. MS, however, does not take as much precision to aim.
Its range vis a vis MS/Knockback + Cold confines its advantages to a smaller AoE. MS can control a large area, and so be a great Party asset, MB can only influence small areas: unlessyou spam it all over the place. (My trapper has been known to do that when facing to many due to me being careless) In tight areas, Act III Temples, MS advantage is not so noticeable, and MS is a No Shield skill that can cost resists versus Blood Lords, etc.
MB allows use of a shield.
MB also works against, unless they changed 1.10, all bosses champs and uniques except for :
Andarial, Duriel, Mehpisto, Diablo, Baal, insofar as "slow him down." They are not a crowd control problem, other than Andariel and Mephisto if you choose to take them on with their minions still running amok. ("Retribution," anyone? )
I have used MB against Ancients in Hell Diff, and was glad I had it. :)
Mind Blast's conversion feature for non-champ, non-boss, non unique monsters is a synergistic asset. Atract beats it one on one in some regards on a point for point investment, though. (Excepting OK's (pun intended)) MB yields the occasional side benefit of monsters slowing themselves down as they beat each other up for a little while. (Attract does this better with one point than MB does with one to ten) MB: two bits of crowd control in one skill, no equipment needed. :) With De Seis leading a pack of Doom Knights, he just got owned by his own minions, in 1.10. :o Necromancer "Attract" will do something similar there, particularly if a bone barrier is put up before casting to separate friend from foe.
MB allows you to decide and act. The stun of 6-10 guarantees that.
The critical piece is to stay inside their OODA loop, so your decision cycle is the shorter than the monsters'. Stair traps, if your BoS and Attack speed is up, can be containted with a few fast Mind Blasts. You then scram or fight without watching red ball simply dry up.
3. Psychic Hammer. Spamming Psychic Hammer quickly can slow down a crowd but it takes a bit better aim and has a short duration. The critical piece is to stay inside their OODA loop, so your decision cycle is the shorter than the monsters'. Stair traps and Psychic Hammer? I have not had a lot of luck, but gosu mouse twitchers, with fast claws and fast gloves and BoS up, might be pretty handy at it. Major Micro, but some folks like that. :) Such as MA assassins!
4. Cloak of Shadows: No boss influence, similar to Taunt in that regard.
Per your comments, it is a very good "I am going to bypass you guys" skill, but your rear and flanks are now vulnerable, so its use in some geography is a set up to get swarmed from all sides.
AR assistance is nice for the follow on attack to mop up, particularly if you have a rogue merc. For a solo play skill, it is superb, I used it all the way through hell with my Rogue Assassin variant, but its short duration can lull you into being swarmed if you are a bit careless. (And I have the scars to prove that!)
Downside: In coop games, some party members dont like going blind. Depends on who you play with.
5. Shadow Master: like Valk, Golem, Grizzly. Keep the monsters busy. Pound for Pound, IMO, Shadow Master is the premier summonable in the game, due to combined versatility, lethality of attack, overall capability, and resists. She can occupy a crowd, but like any summonable has the disadvantage of being a catalyst to Moon Lords, etc, which is why Mind Blast is necessary to save your shirt now and again. :)
6. Claw Skills/Finishers:
Dragon Flight: Poor wench's teleport.
Claws of ice/Phoenix Strike cold release: what's not to like, though tough to aim, compared to, for example, Ice Arrow of Glacial Spike, or Arctic Blast, and you need to mix it up with the Crowd to get it started.
If you are mixing it up, who is in control here, eh? You are, if you use MB or Cloak to set the conditions of the engagement and protect your flank with Miss Shadow.
Claw attacks in general: controls one critter at a time, puts you into the crowd without supplement form other skills. Affixes, though, do work. I'd say "Monster Flee" is the premium CC affix here, particularly if you pump Venom so that some runners don't come back. :) Slows Target gets votes as well, possibly more votes, depends on preference.
7. Burst of Speed: Run Away, not as good as teleport or Leap Attack, or Leap for that matter.
This works universally, unless there is nowhere to run to. (Act III and II temple/tomb stair traps anyone?) Is a nice partial counter to Holy Freeze bosses with large radius, see Hell Diff.
It speeds up other CC skills to be cast, such as Psychic Hammer and MB.
8. Blade Shield is more expensive, and if you use a L 5 weapon, No Shield!!! That hurts resists and blocking, which are other issues for avoiding stun and hence the crowd's closure with you.
9. Fade: NO CC, just elemental stun/death prevention.
10. Blade Fury: I hear rumor that it works with Knockback if that affix is on the selected weapon?
Is that confirmed?
If so, Blade Fury can be sprayed the way I spray Arctic Blast with my elemental Druid, and can approach Strafe's knock back potential, if not MS's, depending on equipment. NO To HIt check, which is nice I think.
Does it also stack with venom? Add cold and either Dim Vision/Blinds target or, HMF, and a scattergun Blade Fury, and things could get very interesting, though I suspect not as fast as MS with a well equipped Bow Amazon.
I guess we need to look at that.
MOre after the weekend.
Crowd Control: Stop the mad rush!! Get 'em offa me!!
That to me is Crowd Control's primary purpose. Having slowed them down, you do have to solve the next problem: OK, now that I have stopped them, what do I do with them?
My vote? I think the Assassin gets the best of both worlds, particularly with traps and Death Sentry, and now with Blade Shield and possibly Blade Fury taking on weapon effects without causing desynch. (The Necro bone barriers have a lot of benefits, monster channeling, that can control the fight quite nicely though. )
1. Assassin has a spammable "keep them busy" Shadow Master or Warrior who is no slouch at combat.
2. Mind Blast heeds no resistance, no immunity. MS, however, does not take as much precision to aim.
Its range vis a vis MS/Knockback + Cold confines its advantages to a smaller AoE. MS can control a large area, and so be a great Party asset, MB can only influence small areas: unlessyou spam it all over the place. (My trapper has been known to do that when facing to many due to me being careless) In tight areas, Act III Temples, MS advantage is not so noticeable, and MS is a No Shield skill that can cost resists versus Blood Lords, etc.
MB allows use of a shield.
MB also works against, unless they changed 1.10, all bosses champs and uniques except for :
Andarial, Duriel, Mehpisto, Diablo, Baal, insofar as "slow him down." They are not a crowd control problem, other than Andariel and Mephisto if you choose to take them on with their minions still running amok. ("Retribution," anyone? )
I have used MB against Ancients in Hell Diff, and was glad I had it. :)
Mind Blast's conversion feature for non-champ, non-boss, non unique monsters is a synergistic asset. Atract beats it one on one in some regards on a point for point investment, though. (Excepting OK's (pun intended)) MB yields the occasional side benefit of monsters slowing themselves down as they beat each other up for a little while. (Attract does this better with one point than MB does with one to ten) MB: two bits of crowd control in one skill, no equipment needed. :) With De Seis leading a pack of Doom Knights, he just got owned by his own minions, in 1.10. :o Necromancer "Attract" will do something similar there, particularly if a bone barrier is put up before casting to separate friend from foe.
MB allows you to decide and act. The stun of 6-10 guarantees that.
The critical piece is to stay inside their OODA loop, so your decision cycle is the shorter than the monsters'. Stair traps, if your BoS and Attack speed is up, can be containted with a few fast Mind Blasts. You then scram or fight without watching red ball simply dry up.
3. Psychic Hammer. Spamming Psychic Hammer quickly can slow down a crowd but it takes a bit better aim and has a short duration. The critical piece is to stay inside their OODA loop, so your decision cycle is the shorter than the monsters'. Stair traps and Psychic Hammer? I have not had a lot of luck, but gosu mouse twitchers, with fast claws and fast gloves and BoS up, might be pretty handy at it. Major Micro, but some folks like that. :) Such as MA assassins!
4. Cloak of Shadows: No boss influence, similar to Taunt in that regard.
Per your comments, it is a very good "I am going to bypass you guys" skill, but your rear and flanks are now vulnerable, so its use in some geography is a set up to get swarmed from all sides.
AR assistance is nice for the follow on attack to mop up, particularly if you have a rogue merc. For a solo play skill, it is superb, I used it all the way through hell with my Rogue Assassin variant, but its short duration can lull you into being swarmed if you are a bit careless. (And I have the scars to prove that!)
Downside: In coop games, some party members dont like going blind. Depends on who you play with.
5. Shadow Master: like Valk, Golem, Grizzly. Keep the monsters busy. Pound for Pound, IMO, Shadow Master is the premier summonable in the game, due to combined versatility, lethality of attack, overall capability, and resists. She can occupy a crowd, but like any summonable has the disadvantage of being a catalyst to Moon Lords, etc, which is why Mind Blast is necessary to save your shirt now and again. :)
6. Claw Skills/Finishers:
Dragon Flight: Poor wench's teleport.
Claws of ice/Phoenix Strike cold release: what's not to like, though tough to aim, compared to, for example, Ice Arrow of Glacial Spike, or Arctic Blast, and you need to mix it up with the Crowd to get it started.
If you are mixing it up, who is in control here, eh? You are, if you use MB or Cloak to set the conditions of the engagement and protect your flank with Miss Shadow.
Claw attacks in general: controls one critter at a time, puts you into the crowd without supplement form other skills. Affixes, though, do work. I'd say "Monster Flee" is the premium CC affix here, particularly if you pump Venom so that some runners don't come back. :) Slows Target gets votes as well, possibly more votes, depends on preference.
7. Burst of Speed: Run Away, not as good as teleport or Leap Attack, or Leap for that matter.
This works universally, unless there is nowhere to run to. (Act III and II temple/tomb stair traps anyone?) Is a nice partial counter to Holy Freeze bosses with large radius, see Hell Diff.
It speeds up other CC skills to be cast, such as Psychic Hammer and MB.
8. Blade Shield is more expensive, and if you use a L 5 weapon, No Shield!!! That hurts resists and blocking, which are other issues for avoiding stun and hence the crowd's closure with you.
9. Fade: NO CC, just elemental stun/death prevention.
10. Blade Fury: I hear rumor that it works with Knockback if that affix is on the selected weapon?
Is that confirmed?
If so, Blade Fury can be sprayed the way I spray Arctic Blast with my elemental Druid, and can approach Strafe's knock back potential, if not MS's, depending on equipment. NO To HIt check, which is nice I think.
Does it also stack with venom? Add cold and either Dim Vision/Blinds target or, HMF, and a scattergun Blade Fury, and things could get very interesting, though I suspect not as fast as MS with a well equipped Bow Amazon.
I guess we need to look at that.
MOre after the weekend.
Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the Men 'O War!
In War, the outcome is never final. --Carl von Clausewitz--
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
John 11:35 - consider why.
In Memory of Pete
In War, the outcome is never final. --Carl von Clausewitz--
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
John 11:35 - consider why.
In Memory of Pete