Socialized Health Care in the USA
Quote:Wonderful, a whole thread devoted to a textbook 'strawman' case :w00t:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A universal healthcare debate:
Person A: We should have universal healthcare.
Person B: No, because only communists believe in universal healthcare and communist countries are typically poor, which we don't want to become.
(B has falsely identified A as a communist and then refuted communism).

...Oh wait, this is about socialism and not communism <_<
Socialized health care. OK, how many of you were in the US for a thing called "wage and price controls" in the Nixon Ford era? Those were contributing factors to a thing called stagflation, though not the sole causes.

IIRC, something like 7% of the American economy is health care stuff. (Or is it 12%? Not sure.)

Putting the gov't in charge makes for a wage and price controls regime that makes Nixon and Ford's attempts at a command economy seem a day in the park. The dollar is about to become good for rolling a joint, and little else.

What makes it worse is that the employment and foundation of the US economy isn't on as sound a footing as it was in the early 1970's.


Health care run by the gov't, due to the transition that will have to happen and how messy transitions are in general, will be simply another nail in the coffin. And here I gave up coffin nails. (Since late October)

Maybe Obama, by still smoking, is on to something.

Occhi
Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the Men 'O War!
In War, the outcome is never final. --Carl von Clausewitz--
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
John 11:35 - consider why.
In Memory of Pete
Reply


Messages In This Thread
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-23-2009, 04:39 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-23-2009, 05:08 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-23-2009, 05:59 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-23-2009, 06:34 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 06-23-2009, 09:42 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Ashock - 06-23-2009, 10:14 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-24-2009, 05:07 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-24-2009, 05:44 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-24-2009, 10:07 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Crusader - 06-24-2009, 12:14 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-24-2009, 04:13 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by ShadowHM - 06-24-2009, 08:25 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by DeeBye - 06-24-2009, 09:43 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-24-2009, 11:46 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by DeeBye - 06-25-2009, 12:18 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-25-2009, 04:43 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Skandranon - 06-25-2009, 01:38 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Ashock - 06-25-2009, 03:35 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-25-2009, 03:51 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-25-2009, 03:57 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Ashock - 06-25-2009, 05:08 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Concillian - 06-25-2009, 07:44 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-25-2009, 08:43 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-25-2009, 08:46 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Lissa - 06-25-2009, 08:53 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-25-2009, 08:53 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-25-2009, 08:55 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by LochnarITB - 06-25-2009, 09:06 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-25-2009, 09:07 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-25-2009, 09:08 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-25-2009, 09:11 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-25-2009, 09:13 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-25-2009, 09:19 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-25-2009, 09:20 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-25-2009, 09:22 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-25-2009, 09:33 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-25-2009, 10:16 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Zenda - 06-26-2009, 01:50 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 06-26-2009, 01:57 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-26-2009, 03:07 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-26-2009, 03:53 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-26-2009, 04:03 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-26-2009, 04:07 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 06-26-2009, 08:58 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-26-2009, 11:05 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-27-2009, 12:29 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-27-2009, 07:36 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-27-2009, 01:19 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-27-2009, 11:24 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-28-2009, 12:03 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-28-2009, 02:41 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 06-28-2009, 03:28 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-28-2009, 03:55 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Concillian - 06-28-2009, 04:51 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-28-2009, 01:26 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-28-2009, 01:48 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-28-2009, 05:28 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-28-2009, 06:12 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 06-28-2009, 06:29 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-28-2009, 06:45 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 06-29-2009, 12:52 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 06-29-2009, 01:12 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 06-29-2009, 04:01 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-01-2009, 03:19 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-01-2009, 08:15 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-01-2009, 09:36 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by ShadowHM - 07-01-2009, 11:01 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-02-2009, 01:18 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-02-2009, 02:04 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-02-2009, 04:04 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-02-2009, 02:44 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-02-2009, 04:18 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-02-2009, 04:35 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-02-2009, 06:51 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-02-2009, 08:01 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-02-2009, 08:58 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-02-2009, 09:09 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-02-2009, 09:42 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-02-2009, 10:07 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-02-2009, 10:23 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-02-2009, 10:28 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-02-2009, 10:41 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-02-2009, 11:26 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-02-2009, 11:40 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-03-2009, 12:02 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-03-2009, 12:09 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-03-2009, 12:29 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-03-2009, 12:51 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-03-2009, 02:06 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Alram - 07-03-2009, 05:18 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by eppie - 07-03-2009, 07:46 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-03-2009, 04:20 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-03-2009, 05:10 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-03-2009, 05:29 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-03-2009, 05:49 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Zenda - 07-03-2009, 07:30 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Zenda - 07-04-2009, 01:26 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-04-2009, 02:04 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Occhidiangela - 07-04-2009, 04:05 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by eppie - 07-04-2009, 08:41 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Zenda - 07-04-2009, 12:56 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-04-2009, 05:04 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-04-2009, 06:13 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by eppie - 07-04-2009, 07:21 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-04-2009, 10:19 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-04-2009, 10:28 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-06-2009, 02:16 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by eppie - 07-06-2009, 08:47 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Zenda - 07-06-2009, 11:35 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Zenda - 07-06-2009, 02:00 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by eppie - 07-06-2009, 02:50 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-06-2009, 03:14 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-06-2009, 03:23 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-06-2009, 03:53 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-06-2009, 04:33 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-06-2009, 05:37 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-06-2009, 05:41 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-06-2009, 06:29 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-06-2009, 06:48 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Zenda - 07-06-2009, 07:15 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Zenda - 07-06-2009, 08:06 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-06-2009, 08:14 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-06-2009, 08:26 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-06-2009, 08:42 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-06-2009, 11:02 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-06-2009, 11:35 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-06-2009, 11:59 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by eppie - 07-07-2009, 08:15 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Zenda - 07-07-2009, 03:36 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-07-2009, 08:49 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-07-2009, 09:04 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-07-2009, 09:24 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-07-2009, 10:16 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-08-2009, 02:07 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-08-2009, 02:12 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-08-2009, 02:38 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by eppie - 07-08-2009, 01:08 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-08-2009, 03:37 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 07-08-2009, 05:01 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-08-2009, 06:24 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-23-2009, 05:17 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Alram - 07-26-2009, 03:08 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by DeeBye - 07-27-2009, 03:38 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-27-2009, 04:46 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 07-27-2009, 05:19 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by DeeBye - 07-27-2009, 02:56 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Zenda - 07-27-2009, 09:43 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 07-27-2009, 10:11 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-16-2009, 04:50 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-17-2009, 01:52 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-17-2009, 10:54 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-17-2009, 11:16 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-18-2009, 03:47 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-18-2009, 09:36 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-19-2009, 01:01 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-19-2009, 09:51 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-19-2009, 11:57 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-19-2009, 01:18 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-19-2009, 06:03 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Skandranon - 08-19-2009, 07:37 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Kevin - 08-19-2009, 07:55 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Delc - 08-19-2009, 08:47 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Kevin - 08-19-2009, 08:54 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-20-2009, 02:48 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-20-2009, 03:42 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-20-2009, 03:50 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-20-2009, 11:59 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-20-2009, 01:33 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Delc - 08-20-2009, 03:26 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-20-2009, 04:58 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-20-2009, 05:01 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Kevin - 08-20-2009, 05:30 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-20-2009, 06:05 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-20-2009, 07:18 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-20-2009, 10:50 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Skandranon - 08-20-2009, 10:51 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-20-2009, 11:06 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-20-2009, 11:07 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-20-2009, 11:24 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-20-2009, 11:37 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-20-2009, 11:40 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-21-2009, 12:15 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-21-2009, 12:50 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Thecla - 08-21-2009, 12:57 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Skandranon - 08-21-2009, 02:13 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-21-2009, 02:23 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-21-2009, 05:27 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-21-2009, 05:37 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-21-2009, 05:41 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Thecla - 08-21-2009, 07:23 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-21-2009, 12:18 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-21-2009, 12:19 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-21-2009, 12:23 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-21-2009, 12:29 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-21-2009, 09:04 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-21-2009, 09:17 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-21-2009, 11:02 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-21-2009, 11:06 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-21-2009, 11:46 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by DeeBye - 08-22-2009, 01:33 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-22-2009, 01:43 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by DeeBye - 08-22-2009, 04:00 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-22-2009, 09:21 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Skandranon - 08-22-2009, 09:37 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-22-2009, 09:42 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-22-2009, 11:27 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-22-2009, 02:31 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-22-2009, 05:33 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Skandranon - 08-23-2009, 12:48 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-23-2009, 03:04 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by DeeBye - 08-23-2009, 04:30 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-23-2009, 02:00 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-23-2009, 02:15 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by DeeBye - 08-24-2009, 05:34 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-24-2009, 06:03 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-25-2009, 12:15 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Delc - 08-25-2009, 04:04 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-25-2009, 05:02 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by DeeBye - 08-25-2009, 05:37 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-25-2009, 05:07 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-25-2009, 08:01 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-25-2009, 10:37 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Taem - 08-25-2009, 10:59 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-25-2009, 11:16 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-25-2009, 11:23 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-25-2009, 11:26 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-25-2009, 11:31 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-25-2009, 11:47 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-26-2009, 02:22 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Taem - 08-26-2009, 02:35 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-26-2009, 02:50 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-26-2009, 09:16 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-26-2009, 09:17 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-26-2009, 09:39 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-26-2009, 12:12 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-26-2009, 12:15 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by eppie - 08-26-2009, 01:50 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-26-2009, 05:10 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-26-2009, 08:17 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-26-2009, 08:30 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-27-2009, 03:19 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by DeeBye - 08-27-2009, 05:43 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by NuurAbSaal - 08-27-2009, 07:26 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-27-2009, 07:31 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-27-2009, 06:15 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by eppie - 08-27-2009, 06:31 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-27-2009, 06:52 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by eppie - 08-27-2009, 07:09 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-27-2009, 11:43 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-28-2009, 12:15 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Thecla - 08-28-2009, 12:42 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-28-2009, 01:19 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-28-2009, 03:40 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-28-2009, 04:41 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by eppie - 08-28-2009, 08:48 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-28-2009, 12:13 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-28-2009, 12:23 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-28-2009, 02:05 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by eppie - 08-28-2009, 04:52 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-28-2009, 10:53 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-28-2009, 11:22 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-29-2009, 12:35 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-29-2009, 03:58 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by eppie - 08-29-2009, 07:32 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-29-2009, 11:13 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by eppie - 08-29-2009, 11:43 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-29-2009, 03:59 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-29-2009, 04:17 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-29-2009, 04:42 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Thecla - 08-29-2009, 07:57 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by --Pete - 08-29-2009, 08:19 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Jester - 08-29-2009, 09:31 PM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Taem - 08-30-2009, 02:31 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by kandrathe - 08-30-2009, 02:35 AM
Socialized Health Care in the USA - by Vandiablo - 08-30-2009, 07:27 AM

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