Religious Resignation

[eppie]

This ground was trampled hundreds of times in the last thread, so I won't go over it again. Needless to say, I don't think that Wright, if "transmogrified" into "White on Black" sounds anything like David Duke. Swapped "Black on White," Duke would be more extreme than Louis Farrakhan. I challenged you to find anything of Wright's that fits into that kind of category, and I can't say what you came up with was particularily convincing.
This was also hashed over in the other thread. I don't think this argument makes any sense at all. How is he a heretic, and who are you to say so when the church he is "heretical" from, the UCC, seems to still think he's just dandy.
I like how you put your "heretical" argument in Obama's mouth. Very nice way to slip that in.

First, I don't think people who attend a church, any church, can be considered carbon copies of their pastors in all things. If you agree with 85% of what your pastor says, couldn't care less about 10%, and find 5% to be kooky, I don't think that's a particularily unusual situation.

Obama is clearly much more moderate than the firey, strident Wright, and he's from a different generation and cultural background. I think he was deeply attracted to the anti-poverty work, the anti-Apartheid and other anti-racism message, and the anti-violence message. Trinity United is inclusive and supportive of rights for gays and lesbians, for women, for people of all ethnicities. (How very David Duke of them.) Obama obviously found that attractive. It's a kind of Christianity that offers a lot of hope, even if it is served up with a side dish of a few conspiracy theories. This is true of, and worse in, a lot of churches.
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The theology, I have no idea, but I obviously disagree with you that this is some kind of heresy, so I don't think that would be any particular issue for Obama. Seems pretty normal to me.

I suspect he probably heard some things in church, every few months, that raised an eyebrow. However, like most people in a church that's more radical than they are (in any sense) he likely just shrugged it off as a difference of opinion. I don't disown friends who believe the occasional kooky thing, Obama probably doesn't either.

Now, if you take all the nuttiest things Wright has said, broadcast them a zillion times, that's going to make him look bad. The last straw for Obama was when Wright, obviously a proud and opinionated man who enjoys the limelight, insisted on defending every one of his least-correct beliefs on television, notably the AIDS conspiracy, and the extremely bizarre belief that Black people are better at music because they think with the other side of their brain. (This, by the by, is one of the few examples of actual racism I can find from Wright, in the sense of a belief in fundamental differences between "races".) When it was all put together, and Wright was not apologetic for these beliefs, but rather was arrogant and belligerent about it, that was the end.

Did he decide to leave the church to protect the church from the media crapstorm? Out of disillusionment with Wright over his public stupidities? To make his own life easier on the campaign trail? I would suspect it was a little of all three, though I suspect the third made the first two seem a lot more pressing. I think he was gracious enough to give Wright some space to correct or shut up about his crazier beliefs, and instead he called a press conference and shouted them at the top of his lungs. I think Obama only gave him that space out of respect and long friendship, and I don't see him as having dealt with this opportunistically.

-Jester

One of the best posts on the lounge, period.


Pete, Occhi, Kandrathe I have the idea you are just looking for something to justify your dislike for Obama.

I don't support Obama, he is much to religious for me (and where religion starts, common sense leaves....but you know my opinion on this matter) but claiming that he is in one way connected and therefor is himself in a certain way a racist is just ridiculous. Your discussion strategy of nitpicking certain remarks another person (jester in this case) made and thereby diverting from the real subject is not helping nice discussions here at all (this last part is not aimed at Kandrathe because he generally shows being able to understand what the opponent in a discussion is saying).


Another point more on the topic of this thread (at least of the 10 last posts) the racism question of certain people/groups. There is a big difference between a racism of say Hitler, that is in power and uses it to commit genocide, and the racism of a member of a lower class community that tries to give 'his people' some pride. Both ways are not good but there is a difference. E.g. the black panthers, obviously a racist group that committed crimes and had leaders that were in it for the power...but they still played an important role in emancipation of blacks. Comparing this; the KKK, that just went around and kill blacks and doing this without being held responsible because of support in politics and the police force is a different thing.
I am not sure that the all of the panthers would have done the same (KKK) thing if they were belonging to the 'ruling class'. For sure a part of them would.....like I always say 'you have bastards in every social class/race and religious group', but trying to connect Obama with these things is just not right., it doesn't make sense.