11-30-2006, 01:13 AM
Quote:FB has a good point which I haven't seen addressed. Most of your examples use caster builds. Where's the melee part?
For the most part, "overpowered" skills lie in the caster arsenal. Aside from ridiculous damage weapons, there isn't much that hacking at something can do that generates the kind of unfairness I was talking about. Crushing Blow comes close, but it's still a damage-based function.
Melee characters can achieve near-indestructibility, but what really throws balance out the window, is that casters, with their obscene damage that effects areas full of foes, can do it BETTER.
Quote:>Conviction, at the very least needs to be on your list. It is completely unfair. Essentially, it eliminates the need for a secondary element (on elemental characters, including, but not limited to, Sorceresses, Amazons, and Druids) AND attack rating.
Apologies. I only play single player when the internet is down.
I did not list it for the Paladin because the skill is actually balanced on a paladin. Basically the most efficient thing he can do (sans unbalanced gear and party members) is power up his Vengeance, much like Might would power up Zeal. For the Paladin, it increases damage. For the Sorceress, the Amazon, the Druid, it allows synergies in a particular "line" of skills to be maximized while not worrying about any sort of plan B, because, in short, Conviction is all-encompassing (or near enough it doesn't matter, particularly with teleport).
Fragbait makes a good point here. The skill is only broken when it can be used by other players.
Quote:You know, there are still players who chose to play a Barb build other than a War Crier.
Just as there are still players who choose to play a Paladin without Blessed Hammer, yet I have not yet seen someone contend that it isn't overpowered.
Quote:What I'm wondering is why your line of reasoning seems to be based on mostly if not all, caster builds. That's fine if you're talking about casters in general. D2 \LoD is certainly weighted in favor of AoE casters most of the time, but that's not the total picture of the whole game.
Correct, but I'm not talking about the whole game. I'm talking about the unbalanced upper end. Whirlwind is all fine and dandy (though it wasn't in previous patches) but it pales in comparison to Blessed Hammer, which has no enemies per second hit cap, is unresistable by the majority of monsters in the game, does not disable all of your actions to use, and has literally no downside to using, or any kind of hindrance (a la Iron Maiden vs. Whirlwind). Obviously this is a polarized example, but compare Whirlwind (generally deemed one of the more powerful melee skills) to just about any high, or even mid-end caster skill. I'm (unjustly?) lumping amazon splash attacks as caster skills (Charged Strike if you want to nit over melee's meaning).
Quote:You mentioned that 'if you've never used war cry, you don't expect understanding there'. Well I think it's fair to ask if you've ever played any melee builds, because without it I don't expect you to understand either.
Fair enough--what kind of melee builds are overpowered?
But I stand by my War Cry. It looks pretty innocuous until you start using it. It may be (probably is) a function of the equipment, particularly Insight, but the skill is just busted. You barely have to sit at your computer to use it. Full on Warcry MIGHT fall behind Blessed Hammer. It's a bit slow in the killing department, granted, but it more than makes up for it. The only moderately frightening enemies for a full-on high level Singer are Tomb Vipers and multiple elemental enchanted melee bosses. And it's possible to run through a Viper cloud and survive, simply because no attribute points need be allocated anywhere but Vitality (dexterity if you want to block, I suppose). ~5000 life, ridiculous armor, maximized resistances, enemies who can't move or attack, can't hit if they do (Taunt), can't damage if they hit (Taunt again), and probably something I'm forgetting make for an overpowered character in my opinion.
Here, I guess, is a decent benchmark for judging whether something is overpowered or not...
"If they put this on an enemy, could I still win without completely re-speccing my character for it (or changing tactics completely--barbarian switchies from Axes to Throwing Knives)?"
Conviction + elemental ranged attack? Nope (Uber Mephisto, various Lightning Enchanted Conviction bosses before absorb/broken resistance caps were available)
Blessed Hammer? Gonna say no. But that'd be a fun one to try. Maybe in SP you could dodge.
Teleport? I'd be tempted to say no here, but it's been done. The problem is the AI just teleports randomly at random times. Caster enemies would be vicious if they actively used it to escape damage.
War Cry? Taunt?
Holy Shield? (Melee has ~5% chance to hit? Try playing in Hell with a melee character when you're maybe 15-20 levels under the enemies)
Charged Strike?
Lightning Fury + Pierce (probably not as bad on SP...)
Smite?
I'm done here.
A couple of other points that I don't want to find quotes for and in no particular order...
--Superior tactics were not present in Diablo I
Untrue. "Peekaboo" killling succubi is perhaps the first that springs to mind. High level Chain-Lightning positioning. Stone Curse blocking. There's all manner of things you do and probably don't think about any more. Can Diablo II really compare? Maybe rounding up enemies for a better angle on your Meteor or Lightning Fury. Why not just fire another one? With mana leech/meditation, they're basically free.
--60% of the power builds out there are Conviction/Blessed Hammer builds.
I play(ed) on USEast Ladder. This is probably approximately true (or was when my hard drive crapped out).
--Teleport alone will never make or break a build.
Not quite. But it's pretty close. It will at the very least vastly improve the killing speed, as a person is able to round up and flee from FAR more enemies before unleashing all kinds of death on them. Teleport also unbalances any kind of item farming (a la Mephisto runs), particularly on multiplayer with randomly seeded maps.
--Holy Shield
Does not grant "you aren't hit", but it's close enough not to matter. You should be getting hit maybe 5% of the time at level 90+ (20% to be hit - 20% * 75% block).
Forgive me if I make presumptions. The situation is probably far better in single player. If you're on the realm with other people, you've got multiple war cries on you, most of the Paladin offensive aurae, maybe half the defensive aurae, and gawd knows what else. If you're playing alone, odds are you're item-hunting or farming some experience utilizing Conviction on a non-Paladin in a full game (substitute Blessed Hammer for non-Paladin conviction as needed). Or you're playing a variant.
Finding suitable equipment is much easier on the realms, and not just due to item saturation. Need a high defense plate? Great. Trade that nice Sorceress Orb you found earlier (And as the ladder season progresses, "High defense plate" and "nice Sorceress Orb" become more like "Ethereal Elite Unique Plate" and "Death's Fathom"...) but can't use on this character. Even with ATMA (or something similar), you can't really simulate this. Each item you find and don't need is potentially an item you can trade for something useful (as long as it isn't complete garbage).
(Sorry for the wait.)
--me, hoping I didn't miss too much