06-07-2006, 10:48 PM
Addressing all posts. Too lazy to do quotes. I have respec'd to Build 1, with the 2 unspent points in improved aspect of the hawk.
Well my problem is I don't know what I want to do with Marn, hence the post asking opinions. :) The guild does both 5 mans and raids and I do both as well, and I still PvP at times too (though I haven't done and PvP since I got back from my break, but before that I usually did 3-5 matches a week). I like having high utility as well, but with most characters that depends not only on spec and gear of your character but the spec and gear of those around you for what utility is needed. Both specs I posted actually have stronger traps than my old spec so a double trap or FD trap in the middle of combat to catch an add will actually work better. Both specs have deterrance as well so that if I get aggro, I can be pretty much unhittable (with melee attacks) for 10 seconds. So I think both specs will still have ways to replace a strong pet for some of those 5 mans and I'll be helping kill stuff faster. But yeah the question as posed to the Terenas guild was do you think my utility to groups would be higher as more DPS now that we are geared better. Both vor_lord and PapaSmurf seemed to answer that with a yes.
And while the pet may still be able to off tank if we start with the pet on the target I won't be able to peel things off rogues and mages, etc with intimidation. Intimidation is a very strong aggro generator, stronger than a lot of people realize.
To the question of Trueshot aura in raids. Morde pays attention to it and generally spreads them around so they help everyone. He had been putting me in a group with another hunter who had it and putting the other hunters in with warriors, melee shaman and rogues (since it gives 100 AP to both melee and ranged it helps the tanks too). I think we'll all have it now though, at least I know Drec, Bini, and Galah are all TSA spec. But it will still help the group DPS in 5 mans, just like the wolf's furious howl helps all the melee people. It also helps the now gimpy pet hold aggro a bit better as it ups the DPS.
As to which spec for my current gear. My normal set that I've been raiding in is at 375 agi. If I farmed the mats to get the two Bone Slicing Hatchets enchanted with +15 agi, I could have 406 agi just from a weapon swap. I could have more AP or agi than I do, but currently I don't want to sacrifice any of the mana I have. I'm at 3600 unbuffed mana and I really don't want to go below that, I have to drink too much as it is. :) So I'm sticking with the Zulian Stone Axe for a bit and keeping the +22 int (330 mana) it gives me. I am still looking at getting the rest of the mats together for the enchants though just for a higher damage higher stam weapon set. Zulian with +25 agi (like I have) is 1.48% crit, 96 RAP, 330 mana. 2x BSH with +15 agi is 1.08% crit, 112 RAP, 105 HP (for me since I'm Tauren). And yeah, right now 18 RAP is more damage than .4% crit. So I've got the gear to support either spec. I'd like a bit more crit, I'd really like a painweaver band now, especially with the surefooted talent and my current bow. I'm +6% to hit now in base gear (2 tarnished elven and the Fahrad's Reloading Repeater quest reward) and +3% from surefoot. I like that though. I can just slap on Voone's Vice Grips and get to 8% for the MC bosses now.
I did take improved Hawk and it can only proc off auto-shoot and I've only got 5 points, but that means it should proc about once every 50 shots or with my bow about once every two and a half minutes. It should proc in boss fights and in since there are times I don't jam on the aimed, multi DPS cycle to conserve a bit of mana, I do just sit and auto-shoot at times so it will be a DPS adder. And I've got 2 in improved mark because I had to put 2 points some where to dig down far enough.
As mentioned the respec did happen and I did some solo killing and some killing with Treesh. I can pull aggro off Meowry with just auto-shots and crit strings. Solo on non elite mobs doesn't matter (and it didn't matter before) I still, just like before open them with aimed shot multi shot and usually they are dead. Solo on elites (blue dragons in Winterspring) isn't much harder to kill them but I have more down time and I have to play around with FD more. The pet isn't strong enough for me to kill them via the sick pet, gimp (scorpid) sting, beastial wrath and auto-shoot to regen mana like it used to be. Me + Pet DPS is about 5 DPS more over the long haul than it had been. But again I'm drinking more frequently and I can't conserve mana the way I used to or the pet will die. I pretty much have to burst the damage sucking down mana or rez the pet (which is soooo much more expensive without the improved revive talent) after the fight.
With Mogo around killing the non elite ogres to get her +9 str to bracers enchant (which did drop) the higher DPS was evident. Those things are stupidly easy to kill though but we smoked them and upping her DPS with TSA and the spec upping mine you could tell.
We then went to farm some ogre beads from the elite ogres outside DM (we picked up about 5 in the 30 minutes or so we spent) Mogo and Marn played a bit more like really old school Mogo and Marn back when they were L20 and duo'ing Waling Caverns. Pet would have aggro for a bit, I would have aggro for a bit, Mogo would have aggro for a bit. The 3 and 4 dog packs were fun. I'd drop my now stronger explosive trap, she would start casting chain I would fire of multi-shot and they would run over the trap. Mutli shot is now an average damage of about 700 (crits aroun 1100, non crits can be as low as 500). Her chain is about the same (crits around 900 but never really lower than 600) and the initial trap hit is around 300 burning for 44 a tick after that. I would have aggro on anything that was still alive, pop deterrance and monkey (49% dodge and 30% parry for 10 seconds with that combo) and just laugh as we finished off whatever was left. This combo was still possible before but not as strong, not as likely to crit, and I couldn't pop deterrance. I could have had the pet intimidate one and hold it but eh. In th e4 dog packs the pet was sent to the one that only got the trap so it held that one most of the time anyway.
So I lost some utility and it's very strange not being able to make the pet big and red or stun mobs. I've always played the hunter with the pet as an integral part of the team, not a mobile DoT and it doesn't work that way nearly as well. Moewry and Qantaqa and Yurtle (who is now pointless) don't really feel like equals to me anymore. But there are things I can do better. Freezing trap lasts 6 seconds longer now. My other traps do more damage, my AoE is stronger (though still weak). I'm sturdier if something gets on me. Wing clip has a chance to immobilize. I can provide everyone with 100 more attack power. Scatter shot's 4 seconds of time was enough time to stop an add, finish off the current target and get the pet on the add before it hit me or Treesh. Treesh likes the way the duo's feel because while me and the pet are actually doing more damage than we did before the way the fights play out make her feel like she is a bigger part of them.
I'll have to get the spec into a 5 man and into a raid (I'll get the raid on Friday) and into PvP where things will have changed. I'm not sure if I'll be stronger or weaker in PvP now. Beastmasters had some good tricks in PvP but I've got some new tricks with this build.
So it's different (and that is good, different specs should play differently) but I still have more tests to take with it. :) But again, since gear is really what is going to determine power at this level of the game and since there are marks and survival talents that have multiplicative effects with gear but there aren't any beast talents that do, gear starts to dictate that beast spec simply isn't as good. Even the things I could do in 5 mans, I just don't need to do as much anymore. The double trap or the precise trapping of the mob we want to trap are the biggest value most of the time it feels and my traps just got better by 6 seconds. But I'll keep going and see.
Well my problem is I don't know what I want to do with Marn, hence the post asking opinions. :) The guild does both 5 mans and raids and I do both as well, and I still PvP at times too (though I haven't done and PvP since I got back from my break, but before that I usually did 3-5 matches a week). I like having high utility as well, but with most characters that depends not only on spec and gear of your character but the spec and gear of those around you for what utility is needed. Both specs I posted actually have stronger traps than my old spec so a double trap or FD trap in the middle of combat to catch an add will actually work better. Both specs have deterrance as well so that if I get aggro, I can be pretty much unhittable (with melee attacks) for 10 seconds. So I think both specs will still have ways to replace a strong pet for some of those 5 mans and I'll be helping kill stuff faster. But yeah the question as posed to the Terenas guild was do you think my utility to groups would be higher as more DPS now that we are geared better. Both vor_lord and PapaSmurf seemed to answer that with a yes.
And while the pet may still be able to off tank if we start with the pet on the target I won't be able to peel things off rogues and mages, etc with intimidation. Intimidation is a very strong aggro generator, stronger than a lot of people realize.
To the question of Trueshot aura in raids. Morde pays attention to it and generally spreads them around so they help everyone. He had been putting me in a group with another hunter who had it and putting the other hunters in with warriors, melee shaman and rogues (since it gives 100 AP to both melee and ranged it helps the tanks too). I think we'll all have it now though, at least I know Drec, Bini, and Galah are all TSA spec. But it will still help the group DPS in 5 mans, just like the wolf's furious howl helps all the melee people. It also helps the now gimpy pet hold aggro a bit better as it ups the DPS.
As to which spec for my current gear. My normal set that I've been raiding in is at 375 agi. If I farmed the mats to get the two Bone Slicing Hatchets enchanted with +15 agi, I could have 406 agi just from a weapon swap. I could have more AP or agi than I do, but currently I don't want to sacrifice any of the mana I have. I'm at 3600 unbuffed mana and I really don't want to go below that, I have to drink too much as it is. :) So I'm sticking with the Zulian Stone Axe for a bit and keeping the +22 int (330 mana) it gives me. I am still looking at getting the rest of the mats together for the enchants though just for a higher damage higher stam weapon set. Zulian with +25 agi (like I have) is 1.48% crit, 96 RAP, 330 mana. 2x BSH with +15 agi is 1.08% crit, 112 RAP, 105 HP (for me since I'm Tauren). And yeah, right now 18 RAP is more damage than .4% crit. So I've got the gear to support either spec. I'd like a bit more crit, I'd really like a painweaver band now, especially with the surefooted talent and my current bow. I'm +6% to hit now in base gear (2 tarnished elven and the Fahrad's Reloading Repeater quest reward) and +3% from surefoot. I like that though. I can just slap on Voone's Vice Grips and get to 8% for the MC bosses now.
I did take improved Hawk and it can only proc off auto-shoot and I've only got 5 points, but that means it should proc about once every 50 shots or with my bow about once every two and a half minutes. It should proc in boss fights and in since there are times I don't jam on the aimed, multi DPS cycle to conserve a bit of mana, I do just sit and auto-shoot at times so it will be a DPS adder. And I've got 2 in improved mark because I had to put 2 points some where to dig down far enough.
As mentioned the respec did happen and I did some solo killing and some killing with Treesh. I can pull aggro off Meowry with just auto-shots and crit strings. Solo on non elite mobs doesn't matter (and it didn't matter before) I still, just like before open them with aimed shot multi shot and usually they are dead. Solo on elites (blue dragons in Winterspring) isn't much harder to kill them but I have more down time and I have to play around with FD more. The pet isn't strong enough for me to kill them via the sick pet, gimp (scorpid) sting, beastial wrath and auto-shoot to regen mana like it used to be. Me + Pet DPS is about 5 DPS more over the long haul than it had been. But again I'm drinking more frequently and I can't conserve mana the way I used to or the pet will die. I pretty much have to burst the damage sucking down mana or rez the pet (which is soooo much more expensive without the improved revive talent) after the fight.
With Mogo around killing the non elite ogres to get her +9 str to bracers enchant (which did drop) the higher DPS was evident. Those things are stupidly easy to kill though but we smoked them and upping her DPS with TSA and the spec upping mine you could tell.
We then went to farm some ogre beads from the elite ogres outside DM (we picked up about 5 in the 30 minutes or so we spent) Mogo and Marn played a bit more like really old school Mogo and Marn back when they were L20 and duo'ing Waling Caverns. Pet would have aggro for a bit, I would have aggro for a bit, Mogo would have aggro for a bit. The 3 and 4 dog packs were fun. I'd drop my now stronger explosive trap, she would start casting chain I would fire of multi-shot and they would run over the trap. Mutli shot is now an average damage of about 700 (crits aroun 1100, non crits can be as low as 500). Her chain is about the same (crits around 900 but never really lower than 600) and the initial trap hit is around 300 burning for 44 a tick after that. I would have aggro on anything that was still alive, pop deterrance and monkey (49% dodge and 30% parry for 10 seconds with that combo) and just laugh as we finished off whatever was left. This combo was still possible before but not as strong, not as likely to crit, and I couldn't pop deterrance. I could have had the pet intimidate one and hold it but eh. In th e4 dog packs the pet was sent to the one that only got the trap so it held that one most of the time anyway.
So I lost some utility and it's very strange not being able to make the pet big and red or stun mobs. I've always played the hunter with the pet as an integral part of the team, not a mobile DoT and it doesn't work that way nearly as well. Moewry and Qantaqa and Yurtle (who is now pointless) don't really feel like equals to me anymore. But there are things I can do better. Freezing trap lasts 6 seconds longer now. My other traps do more damage, my AoE is stronger (though still weak). I'm sturdier if something gets on me. Wing clip has a chance to immobilize. I can provide everyone with 100 more attack power. Scatter shot's 4 seconds of time was enough time to stop an add, finish off the current target and get the pet on the add before it hit me or Treesh. Treesh likes the way the duo's feel because while me and the pet are actually doing more damage than we did before the way the fights play out make her feel like she is a bigger part of them.
I'll have to get the spec into a 5 man and into a raid (I'll get the raid on Friday) and into PvP where things will have changed. I'm not sure if I'll be stronger or weaker in PvP now. Beastmasters had some good tricks in PvP but I've got some new tricks with this build.
So it's different (and that is good, different specs should play differently) but I still have more tests to take with it. :) But again, since gear is really what is going to determine power at this level of the game and since there are marks and survival talents that have multiplicative effects with gear but there aren't any beast talents that do, gear starts to dictate that beast spec simply isn't as good. Even the things I could do in 5 mans, I just don't need to do as much anymore. The double trap or the precise trapping of the mob we want to trap are the biggest value most of the time it feels and my traps just got better by 6 seconds. But I'll keep going and see.
---
It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.
It's all just zeroes and ones and duct tape in the end.