Before I actually reply to your post Pete, let me clarify, in much simpler terms, my pooint in my above post.
I am not against the death penalty. In fact, for all its faults, I am more or less for it (I don't have a concrete position, but if pressed for an answer, I'd say I'm for it, and certainly not against it). What I am against is needless suffering.
Now, I'm trying to be civil here, as in being a civil person in general. I, like anyone, have the same feeling of "Let 'em hang and rot" when it comes to crimes warranting the death penalty, such as rape, murder, etc. But that doesn't mean those feelings should be put to use. As a good friend once said to me, you can't change how you feel, only what you do about / with it. Just because I may feel that such criminals should get whatever is coming to them (in terms of punishment) doesn't mean that I think it should be carried out, per se. I certainly will state on occasion that I think rapists should be castrated, by a horse (like in olden times, torn limb from limb, by horses), without any drugs. But that doesn't mean if someone tried to make that a form of punishment for rape I'd necessarily support it, if only because of moral complications (I try to be a good human being, and "eye for an eye" doesn't sit as well with my moral side as it does with my vengeful side, which I try to quell).
Now that that's out of the way, let's get to your post.
I agree. But as our society and country have evolved, so too have your ways. Back then, slavery was well-practiced and accepted, but I think we can all agree that such acts are inhumane. I feel the same way about killing someone in a more brutal fashion than is necessary.
Agree whole-heartedly, at least about the "payment" bit. I do NOT agree, under any circumstances, that criminals should be treated like kings. I feel only the basic necessities for living (including medical, however) should be provided. A basic bed, 3 square meals (no better than the Armed Forces or high school students get, or we're treating them too good :P), and lavoratory use (bathroom, shower, etc.), along with basic medical services. Beyond that, they should have nothing. Period. Anything more, and they're being treated too kindly, and wasting our tax dollars.
Once again, I agree whole-heartedly. See what I said above. Anything beyond the basic neccessities is overdoing it.
So very true. But I felt the need to speak my mind on just this one part of this topic, since normally I avoid any discussion of these red-hot topics altogether (save for occasional reading). As I said, I'm more or less for the death penalty, provided it's not used too extremely (i.e. grand theft auto, although a felony, shouldn't be cause for death; murder and rape, however, should, IMHO). As for actual incarceration, you can read my thoughts on that above. Criminals today have it too good. WAY too good. It needs to stop (although whether it will is an entirely different matter, as we both know). They should not get any more than absolutely necessary to keep them alive. They should NOT have a "normal" life by our standards. They should have a sub-normal life, only providing enough to keep them alive and (more or less) healthy. Beyond that, it becomes luxury, and a waste on our tax dollars and our entire legal system.
You and I think more alike than you may realize Pete. We both tend to have very down-to-earth attitudes about things, very cut-and-dry. So far as I can tell, we agree on everything you've said in your post, which is about what I expected. The only point I was trying to make in my original post is one seen by Chesspiece: if they're going to die, let them die "in peace". Dying, and the time served beforehand, should be punishment enough. No need to force them to suffer needlessly, least of all to fulfill our rashful desire to "make them pay". Death, IMHO, is a fitting enough penalty all on its own, especially when it's preceeded by much time with nothing to do but contemplate your sins (think "time out" of our younger days, a punishment that always seemed to work well before it became "too cruel" :P). Beyond that, and we begin to sink down to no better than them.
Despite my nature, I try my hardest not to be a vengeful person. Revenge may be a dish best served cold, but I prefer not to serve it at all. There are better ways to solve things, in my opinion, and they don't have to be all candy and cupcakes.
Edit:
Just to prove I'm not a softy towards criminals, I'll throw in another punishment I find completely fitting: isolation. A week in a 3' x 3' cell with no windows of any kind is a damn fine punishment, if you ask me. And if they go crazy from it? Oh well. Lock 'em in a straight-jacket and throw them in a padded room. I'm not candy-ass, but I'm not butcher either. I fall inbetween, although definitely leaning more toward the latter than the former. Isolation is, in my opinion, probably one of the best punishments I've even seen devised. I really can't think of much worse than being locked in a tiny pitch black cage, at least that doesn't cross my moral boundaries. Frankly, I think all death-row inmates should be put in permanent isolation until their final day.
I am not against the death penalty. In fact, for all its faults, I am more or less for it (I don't have a concrete position, but if pressed for an answer, I'd say I'm for it, and certainly not against it). What I am against is needless suffering.
Now, I'm trying to be civil here, as in being a civil person in general. I, like anyone, have the same feeling of "Let 'em hang and rot" when it comes to crimes warranting the death penalty, such as rape, murder, etc. But that doesn't mean those feelings should be put to use. As a good friend once said to me, you can't change how you feel, only what you do about / with it. Just because I may feel that such criminals should get whatever is coming to them (in terms of punishment) doesn't mean that I think it should be carried out, per se. I certainly will state on occasion that I think rapists should be castrated, by a horse (like in olden times, torn limb from limb, by horses), without any drugs. But that doesn't mean if someone tried to make that a form of punishment for rape I'd necessarily support it, if only because of moral complications (I try to be a good human being, and "eye for an eye" doesn't sit as well with my moral side as it does with my vengeful side, which I try to quell).
Now that that's out of the way, let's get to your post.
Pete,Apr 13 2006, 07:46 PM Wrote:Hi,
Yes, and it is another example of the problem with the extreme terseness of parts of the US Constitution and Amendments. There are two issues that must be considered. One is the mores of the times that statement was written. At that time, hanging was not a drop that broke the neck, it was slow strangulation. And it was an accepted, as was ridicule at the pillory. The 'cruel' punishments were things like drawing, pressing, quartering, etc. Basically means to torture someone to death. The framers of the Constitution would not have batted an eyelash at something as humane as lethal injection, except possibly to observe that it was more mercy than the recipient deserved.
I agree. But as our society and country have evolved, so too have your ways. Back then, slavery was well-practiced and accepted, but I think we can all agree that such acts are inhumane. I feel the same way about killing someone in a more brutal fashion than is necessary.
Quote:The second point, of course, is that the whole ". . . nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." is a load of nonsense. Punishment is cruel or it is not punishment. It is not in it's being cruel that it needs to be judged but in how much of that cruelty is necessary. When inmates have a better life than they had on the street, with more free time, better health services, even better meals, then is this actually punishment for them? Wouldn't making little rocks from big ones, or working on a chain gang be more appropriate? If they are paying a debt to society, shouldn't there actually be some payment? Even if it is only symbolic?
Agree whole-heartedly, at least about the "payment" bit. I do NOT agree, under any circumstances, that criminals should be treated like kings. I feel only the basic necessities for living (including medical, however) should be provided. A basic bed, 3 square meals (no better than the Armed Forces or high school students get, or we're treating them too good :P), and lavoratory use (bathroom, shower, etc.), along with basic medical services. Beyond that, they should have nothing. Period. Anything more, and they're being treated too kindly, and wasting our tax dollars.
Quote:And as to 'unusual', too many people now seem to use the normal life of a non incarcerated member of society as the model for usual. Once again, if an inmate is living at the standard of his 'usual' out of prison life, and sometimes better, is there any punishment really going on? Seems to me that there isn't. If going to prison is little more than an inconvenience, if there's no mental or physical pain involved, then it becomes meaningless. And judging from what is happening in the USA, our attitude to 'cruel and unusual punishments' has destroyed the concept of correction in our correction facilities and has left only a means to briefly protect society from predators.
Once again, I agree whole-heartedly. See what I said above. Anything beyond the basic neccessities is overdoing it.
Quote:As for the whole death penalty debate, Jimmy is glue.
--Pete
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So very true. But I felt the need to speak my mind on just this one part of this topic, since normally I avoid any discussion of these red-hot topics altogether (save for occasional reading). As I said, I'm more or less for the death penalty, provided it's not used too extremely (i.e. grand theft auto, although a felony, shouldn't be cause for death; murder and rape, however, should, IMHO). As for actual incarceration, you can read my thoughts on that above. Criminals today have it too good. WAY too good. It needs to stop (although whether it will is an entirely different matter, as we both know). They should not get any more than absolutely necessary to keep them alive. They should NOT have a "normal" life by our standards. They should have a sub-normal life, only providing enough to keep them alive and (more or less) healthy. Beyond that, it becomes luxury, and a waste on our tax dollars and our entire legal system.
You and I think more alike than you may realize Pete. We both tend to have very down-to-earth attitudes about things, very cut-and-dry. So far as I can tell, we agree on everything you've said in your post, which is about what I expected. The only point I was trying to make in my original post is one seen by Chesspiece: if they're going to die, let them die "in peace". Dying, and the time served beforehand, should be punishment enough. No need to force them to suffer needlessly, least of all to fulfill our rashful desire to "make them pay". Death, IMHO, is a fitting enough penalty all on its own, especially when it's preceeded by much time with nothing to do but contemplate your sins (think "time out" of our younger days, a punishment that always seemed to work well before it became "too cruel" :P). Beyond that, and we begin to sink down to no better than them.
Despite my nature, I try my hardest not to be a vengeful person. Revenge may be a dish best served cold, but I prefer not to serve it at all. There are better ways to solve things, in my opinion, and they don't have to be all candy and cupcakes.
Edit:
Just to prove I'm not a softy towards criminals, I'll throw in another punishment I find completely fitting: isolation. A week in a 3' x 3' cell with no windows of any kind is a damn fine punishment, if you ask me. And if they go crazy from it? Oh well. Lock 'em in a straight-jacket and throw them in a padded room. I'm not candy-ass, but I'm not butcher either. I fall inbetween, although definitely leaning more toward the latter than the former. Isolation is, in my opinion, probably one of the best punishments I've even seen devised. I really can't think of much worse than being locked in a tiny pitch black cage, at least that doesn't cross my moral boundaries. Frankly, I think all death-row inmates should be put in permanent isolation until their final day.
Roland *The Gunslinger*