Talk about obnoxious...

[Jester]

No I am not, Jester, nor are most Americans.  I am American.  Born here of American parents.  I am not an immigrant.  Do you understand that concept?  I have a country, a nation, and its name has no hyphen.

Your self-identification, in this context, is irrelevant to me. I am Canadian, not British-Canadian, or Slovak-Canadian or Balinese-Mongolian-Canadian, but I'm still decended from immigrants. Unless you came over the Bering Strait (and even then, possibly) you or your ancestors came to an already-inhabited land. You are immigrants or the decendants of immigrants, and that is a fact.

The "indigenous" weren't ever American until they chose to assimilate, were conquered, or variously blended into the oddball mix that makes America what it is.  Some chose to opt out, not to assimilate, and live on the reservation and remain "indigenous." [...] This land, my nation, wasn't America until the European migration and mixing made it so, and until a considerable amount of blood was shed to form it, and to bound it: to set its borders.

Being conquerors as well does not change matters. Note: I didn't call it America, at that stage, although it was, having been named such by Amerigo Vespucci long before the USA ever existed. I just said you (or your ancestors) came to this geographical location, and conquered it from those who were already there. Ironically, the people you conquered this particular area from (the border) were Mexicans, who are both Indigenous and European, in parts.

I am not saying, of course, that we should kick out all peoples who came after the first migration. Instead, I think that people have an obligation to be tolerant, remembering that there are almost no completely "legitimate" land claims in this world, yours and mine especially. Let people move where they want, with minimal restrictions, granting voluntarily the rights our ancestors took by force. If liberty is truly the best system in the world, then it should work well enough.

For a guy who likes to quote international law as much as you do, I find your disrespect of my nation's laws slightly hypocritical.

Funny, that weird distinction between international laws and national ones, and how I agree (for instance) with the UN Security Council's legitimacy, and not (for instance) the Saudi royal family's arbitrary decrees. How on earth can I justify an opinion as insane as *that*?

I am disrespectful of your laws because I disagree with them. I am not disrespectful of your process. Do what you like with your borders, and do what you like with your laws. I'm just asking why you don't do something easy, humane and consistent with (a rather generous reading of) your historical ideals. If you want to do something brutal, isolationist and (IMHO) crazy, in the model of Soviet East Germany, feel free. It's your country.

You might be surprised at how harsh, down here in South Texas, some of the second and third generation Americans of Mexican descent are on illegal immigration.  They have no more taste for it than I do.  They did it right, their families did it right, the hard and lawful way, and are resentful of the freeloaders.

Because they're irritated, you should seal your borders and shoot to kill? Good for them for coming legally, but that doesn't give them the right to dictate policy, nor does it obligate you to their opinions. Also: freeloaders? These are people doing some of the crappiest, lowest paid sweated work in the USA. Calling them freeloaders shows your contempt for them beyond what is warranted. They're lawbreakers, but not lazy ones. (By and large, of ourse. Every group is mixed.)

The "do you understand"s and the "way to perpetuate the big lie"s I'll ignore for now. As I've said before, if you want to argue like that I'd rather bow out than continue.

-Jester