Talk about obnoxious...

[jahcs]

Here are a few questions for you to chew on.

How can it be a war crime if there is no declared war?

I appologize for not defining my war crimes comment. The comment was not to be taken as directly applying to this situation. It was more an examination of history and drawing the point that you don't need this much escalation to stop folks looking for work. Even in Free Fire Zones in Declared Wars Military Commanders that fire on civilians and are caught are put on trial.

How can an invader not be considered a combatant?

Many of the folks crossing the border could be argued as being economic refugees that didn't file the correct paperwork.

A wall is indeed, to agree with you, no better than the forces and methods you  have manning it. 

My argument remains, given the current technology in surveillance, and in mobility, that a wall is a 19th century approach to the border security problem.  Given less than infinite resources, the allocation of funds to an active defense, rather than as a static defense, no wall is necessary.  Observation of the border and avenues of ingress is, and a QRF is how to do it using current doctrine and equipment.

I don't think we are debating that with you. I am debating the need for a physical barrier that must be crossed to initiate the ROE. Whether that's a river, a fence, a wall, a trench, or a bunch of signposts, there needs to be something there.

As to "civilians," you are a lawful border and under protected status as a legal crosser if you do so at approved border crossing sights in accordance with the law.  There are many along our border.

No debate there either.

If you are an unlawful, you are an invader, and have classified yourself as a target by your actions.  If the Mexican government has the ability to spread the word about "border crossing avenues" they have the wherewithal to spread the word "don't try this at other than authorized border crossing points, or you'll get shot." 

If the Mexican Government is doing so much to promote the border crossings it could be argued that the crossers comprise a disorganized militia and therefore Mexico has declared war on the U.S. by sending an invading army across the border. Stiff sanctions need to be placed on Mexico for aiding these illegal crossings anyway.

If the RoE is tight, then you may be right, and artillery might be unusable, just as artillery and 2000-5000 pound bombs are frequently unusable in heavily built up urban areas in Iraq, or other MOUT environments. 

The mistake is to fail to use advantageous synergy.  If your border patrol approaches a group of "immigrants" who turn out to be heavily armed drug runners, a call for fire is just the thing to tip the assymetry in the favor of the border patrol.  They are armed, they are infiltrating, they are invading.

That is a legitimate military target.

If, if, if... Instead of using some border patrol officers with pistols we put a Striker Brigade on the Border... If we put up remote control sentry guns... If we put up antipersonnel minefields in a layered defense... If we have C130 gunships orbiting the border towns... If we build a border patrol force with the tools and training neccesary to meet the incoming threat then we have a winning scenario. Where we draw the line on what is needed is the sticking point.

You still have to VID the target, and follow doctrinal fire control measures. I am not advocating making the border a free fire zone.  The deterrent effect of a few fire fights, or a few shotings would be, I think, significant if yo get the word out.

But I do advocate raising the ante.  I do advocate treating the border as sovereign, and as a line we no longer accept being moved.  And as worth defending.

Try this simple idea on for size, as a KISS RoE. 

A:  "Stop, or I shoot." (In English, and Spanish)

B:  Fails to stop.

A:  Shoots.

This is not rocket science.

Occhi
[right][snapback]106772[/snapback][/right]

Thanks for clarifying your engagement strategy. Frequently you have talked of shooting the border crossers. I assumed you meant not in a "shoot first and ask questions later" mentality but we all know what happens when things get left unsaid and we start assuming...