GEM vs Guilded Raider

[kandrathe]

It is getting hard to keep up with all the signups on three boards now.

Guilded Raiders has the advantage that it spams its communications through Guilded, however I feel Guild Event Manager is more feature rich at this point. Please try it out and let's discuss it here.

I established the GEM channel as AVevents and the password is the same as the lurkerlounge.com TS server.

Edit: changed the channel name due to some issues that Quark was having.

Edit2: due to channel auto signon issues, passwords mess things up. No password.

[Pesmerga]

It is getting hard to keep up with all the signups on three boards now.

Guilded Raider has the advantage that it spams its communications through Guilded, however I feel GEM is more feature rich at this point. 

I established the GEM channel as AvariceEvents and the password is the same as the lurkerlounge.com TS server.
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I havent heard of either, so don't know much. Pros and cons of each, please?

[kandrathe]

I havent heard of either, so don't know much.  Pros and cons of each, please?
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I added the hyperlinks to the Curse site so no one has to go slogging off through the net looking for them.

[Pesmerga]

I added the hyperlinks to the Curse site so no one has to go slogging off through the net looking for them.
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Could you possibly post some screenies of the Guilded one, so I can check out the interface?

Thanks! :P

[Kevin]

It is getting hard to keep up with all the signups on three boards now.

Guilded Raiders has the advantage that it spams its communications through Guilded, however I feel Guild Event Manager is more feature rich at this point.  Please try it out and let's discuss it here.

I established the GEM channel as AvariceEvents and the password is the same as the lurkerlounge.com TS server.
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As a note all sign-up threads will be hosted on the CA boards. Anything on the Lurker or Basin boards will just be a link to those or something where someone is looking to do things with just Basiners or Lurkers.

[Quark]

Kan and I are doing some testing. GEM 2.0 (currently in beta) seems the best bet. GuildedRaiders is a hack at best.

[Pesmerga]

Kan and I are doing some testing.  GEM 2.0 (currently in beta) seems the best bet.  GuildedRaiders is a hack at best.
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I had some snappy comeback about you being a hack, but then I remembered how much of a better coder you are than I....

[kandrathe]

As a note all sign-up threads will be hosted on the CA boards.  Anything on the Lurker or Basin boards will just be a link to those or something where someone is looking to do things with just Basiners or Lurkers.
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Granted most of the combined standard stuff is in that one place. My problem has been that with my past signups maybe 7 days prior, and with things scheduled 7 or more days in advance, I can hardly remember which events I've signed up for. I'm constantly having to sift through maybe 10-20 signup posts, and see if I'm in it already. :-)

One advantage of GEM is that you can specify a min/max number of a class if you like, and it will automatically keep a wait list, in order of signup, and at raid time you press one button to invite all those signed up.

All I'm asking is that people take a look.

[Darian]

Granted most of the combined standard stuff is in that one place.  My problem has been that with my past signups maybe 7 days prior, and with things scheduled 7 or more days in advance, I can hardly remember which events I've signed up for.  I'm constantly having to sift through maybe 10-20 signup posts, and see if I'm in it already.
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I recognized that as a problem without anyone even mentioning it, oddly enough. That's why I made the Event Archive forum, to move expired events out of the way. Should help with some of that.

My main problem with the add-on is concern over message spam causing lag. We'll see how it goes.

[LochnarITB]

I'm constantly having to sift through maybe 10-20 signup posts, and see if I'm in it already.  :-)
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Good to know I'm not the only one that does this.

I haven't tried GEM, but I like what I see in the screen shots. I, too, am concerned about added lag from channel traffic it might generate. There is also a feature I would like to see added to it (if it isn't already there). I would like to see an auto-signup. Give it parameters for time and preference order for events and then sign me up if those are met.

[Ruvanal]

I established the GEM channel as AVevents and the password is the same as the lurkerlounge.com TS server.

Edit: changed the channel name due to some issues that Quark was having.
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There has been a problem in the game with mods that try to set and use the password for channels. Frankly it usually does not work. If the channel is not in constant use 24/7 then the password aspect does not stick and you will end up with a channel that does not have a password assigned to it. I had already run into that when I tried to join the channel/password that you had set up prior to this post. Even though you said you had a password on that channel, the only way I could join was to remove the password and then I could join the channel.

Darian:

My main problem with the add-on is concern over message spam causing lag. We'll see how it goes.

I can't check to see what level of chat spam the mod is generating until there are at least 10 players on line at the same time using this mod. It would also likely take at least 6 events in the list to be there to see how much chat traffic the events are generating.

I do know that the GuildedPlayerTracker mod that some are using is generating more chat spam on the avarice channel than I care for. There have been a couple of times that I needed to shut off the guilded mod to cut out some spam. Before I could manually exit that channel with a newly logged in character, I could see just how much spam was running in that channel. The GuildedPlayerTracker is generating at about 2 messages per player that has that mod active on their system. That appears to be a lot more than is being used by the portions of the guilded put together. From what I can tell the silent messages being sent by the other modules are only generating a couple of tells when key events happen (players enter/leave game, change zone, etc.). The GuildedPlayerTracker appears to be generating its tells when the character moves to change their position on any of the maps. To me that is likely a lot more channel traffic than what is likely to used to send the data for some scheduled events or when someone adds their name to one of the sign ups.

[kandrathe]

Darian:

I can't check to see what level of chat spam the mod is generating until there are at least 10 players on line at the same time using this mod.  It would also likely take at least 6 events in the list to be there to see how much chat traffic the events are generating. 

From Ruv's test it appears to generate one message per raid, and one per person signed up at signon time.

[Ruvanal]

From Ruv's test it appears to generate one message per raid, and one per person signed up at signon time.
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We still need a larger pool of players on with it to get a good indication of how much it might spam when someone enters the game. How well spaced out are those messages? Do they repeat themselves from seperate players so as not to have a lot duplicate messages coming from every player all trying to do an update? If there is enough time delay in sending the messages and a good filtering of data already sent by someone else, then there will likely be negligible reduction of performance to all in the channel. But if those two things are not well set up then there may lag spikes generated when someone logs in and the channel gets spammed by all the users trying to send the same info to the new arrival. That is what killed the usefulness of the trade aspect of Guilded in version 0.11.

[Kevin]

We still need a larger pool of players on with it to get a good indication of how much it might spam when someone enters the game.  How well spaced out are those messages?  Do they repeat themselves from seperate players so as not to have a lot duplicate messages coming from every player all trying to do an update?  If there is enough time delay in sending the messages and a good filtering of data already sent by someone else, then there will likely be negligible reduction of performance to all in the channel.  But if those two things are not well set up then there may lag spikes generated when someone logs in and the channel gets spammed by all the users trying to send the same info to the new arrival.  That is what killed the usefulness of the trade aspect of Guilded in version 0.11.
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I've just gotten GEM. I'll help you test it out later today I guess.

[Darian]

Quark ran into some very obnoxious problems with this mod the other night (which I'll let him explain).

I think the sad fact of the matter is that mods like this which depend on transmitting updating data to people are just not workable from the client side. It would be nice if Blizzard could set up infrastructure for guild linking and raid management so that the server is sending this information (and storing the raid data). It wouldn't be that hard -- here at work, this is what we DO, and I know what's involved -- but it would require both knowledge of how to do it properly and hardware, which they probably would rather not invest in.

[kandrathe]

Quark ran into some very obnoxious problems with this mod the other night (which I'll let him explain).

I think the sad fact of the matter is that mods like this which depend on transmitting updating data to people are just not workable from the client side.  It would be nice if Blizzard could set up infrastructure for guild linking and raid management so that the server is sending this information (and storing the raid data).  It wouldn't be that hard -- here at work, this is what we DO, and I know what's involved -- but it would require both knowledge of how to do it properly and hardware, which they probably would rather not invest in.
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The only problems I know about involve whether or not the channel is passworded. Due to the channel autojoin not remembering passwords. If someone opens the channel first and has a password, anyone trying to connect without the password is messed up. And, vice versus. So, for simplicity I suggest we run without a password until someone malevolent decides to muck around.

[Ruvanal]

Quark ran into some very obnoxious problems with this mod the other night (which I'll let him explain).

I think the sad fact of the matter is that mods like this which depend on transmitting updating data to people are just not workable from the client side.  It would be nice if Blizzard could set up infrastructure for guild linking and raid management so that the server is sending this information (and storing the raid data).  It wouldn't be that hard -- here at work, this is what we DO, and I know what's involved -- but it would require both knowledge of how to do it properly and hardware, which they probably would rather not invest in.
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I am not sure what problems that Quark was attributing to GEM on that Onyxia run. I on the other hand have been noticing some severe problems with a couple of the Guilded addons: GuildedPlayerTracker and GuildedDKP.

With the GuildedPlayerTracker addon, everyone that has it installed is spamming the channel with at least 2 tells per second to update their postion to everyone; that can be a lot of spam if several are on line at the same time with this. This has been severe enough on my client to process that I can get a anywhere from a couple of extra FPS to a +50% increase in FPS by switching to an unused channel or just turning off Guilded altogether.

For the GuildedDKP, I had just tried it out that day. Looking to see how to get it to show information, I hit the button to find a master list and ended up getting a massive spam of tells from Quark with the information that he had. The amount of spam, does not look like it had very much compression associated with it, nor was it clear if there were any time delays being used to avoid spam issues. This was done while in the lair prior to the first warded being pulled. I did not notice if this was one of the times that had Quark getting dropped or not. I would not like to think what his client would need to be doing if more than 1 person at time was trying to get an update. Later at the end of the run I noticed that module went spastic with error messages when one player left. The amount of spam from that alone suggest that it is sending a large amount of tells over the channel on a regular basis and does not have good error checking to avoid tying up the client if things do not look 'right' to the module.

As of now, both of these I will not be having installed anymore. While the DKP information would have been nice to look at, it was not needed in my opion except to the raid leaders at loot distribution time. It is also worth noting that at this time Sij (writer of Guilded) has offically abandoned any further work on the Guilded project and recomended the other go and use the GuildAds mod instead. He also gave permission to the author of that mod to take whatever functionality out of Guilded that they felt like to make the GuildAds function better. Not sure I like in the long run to depending too much on a group of mods that is not going to have some serious support backing it up, particularly when I know that 2 of the mod add ons to it are capable causing as much excess chat spam as I have seen those 2 generate.

edit: P.S.
Just found this note on the Curse Gaming site concerning the GuildedDKP.

10/28/2005 - 12:29:54 PM
Keltor
Frag the Master I use GuildedDKP with GetDKP (i'm the DKP master) and all non master can push a "frag master" button who kick me out of game.
does any1 have the same problem?
its not funny if players can kick me OOG while i looting epics ;)

This sounds a lot like the spam I saw using that module and what appeared to happening to Quark from my perspective.

[Kevin]

The GuildedDKP isn't even all that needed with Psybie doing some nice work for us on his own mods and it takes me all of about 3 seconds to get to windowed mode and sort the webpage as need be if it comes to that.

I do agree that we should ask peopel to drop playertracker.

I agree that it would be nice to have something else with good support. The last time I looked at GuildAds I was not happy about something but don't recall what, but it is good to know that Sij has abandoned it and that maybe GuildAds will work for us.

I really want internal game stuff for this, like Darian side. Guilds are too integral to a game like this to not have any internal game mechanisms for them. Something that I was worried about back in the beta days when I was reading about the game (didn't get in beta till one week before the open beta).

[Quark]

I believe my problems are chat spam forcing disconnects. It's not GEM. It's not GuildedDKP. It's not anything else.

It's all of them combined. I like GuildedDKP's interface better than GetDKP's, so I may self-mod GuildedDKP so that it doesn't transmit data to others. GuildedDKP giving info to others is a nice thing, but I'm using it to have easy, no, very easy access to the points list.

Psybie's mods are cool, but at this time have no integrated way to update the stats. It tries to get an initial statlist going, then update as it goes, but that causes a ton of issues - especially related to BoEs in MC. Points getting assigned to the wrong people is something I'd have to manually fix. And I don't want to have to update two seperate lists.

Playertracker definately should not be used, though anyone not using it won't see the bad side effects :)

[Ruvanal]

Playertracker definately should not be used, though anyone not using it won't see the bad side effects :)
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Actually everyone gets spammed by those using it, not just the one that have it installed. The tell messages that it sends are just not turned into anything useful (or seen) unless you do have the mod installed, at which point you would also be adding to the spam.

I believe my problems are chat spam forcing disconnects. It's not GEM. It's not GuildedDKP. It's not anything else.

It's all of them combined.  ...

Considering at the time of the Onyxia raid there was only 3 of use with GEM up and going, I doubt that it had any real contribution to the chat traffic. From having montitored what it was generating at that time from the events that Kandrathe and I listed (3 total events), I was only seeing 7 tells coming through when someone entered that channel and then it stayed quite there after. Comparing that to the tells I would see from tells that I would see in the same time frame from 3 users of the Playertracker, that would have been about 1/10 the trackers spam over the same time.