Druid Changes - 1.8

[Watto44]

Very exciting stuff. The only problem is that I really don't know where to go with my points. :D I recently respecced to 9/21/21 and am having a blast with that in AB (not really missing innervate that much, but having the cheap pvp pots has been pretty handy for 5 manning stuff without it). Unfortunately, if I want to go for a similar build, I miss out on all the juicy stuff higher in all three trees.

Fortunately, there is juicy stuff higher in all three trees!!!

<=== Is going back to furiously farming so he can afford as many respecs on the test realm as possible.

Edit: Forgot to add my greatest concern, which is the range of cat abilities. It's not a drama in PvE, but in pvp I find I have to get ridiculously close to someone to get a claw or shred off (even to the point where i'm actually in front of them to backstab them :unsure: ). It isn't an issue for regular cat form attacks either, just the ones that cost energy, which seem to have less "range" than a regular attack. :blink: I really hope they're at least looking into it.

[Awolfscry]

The new feral and balance talents will help the druid class tremendously. You will see more Feral and Balance druids then you did before. However, you will probabaly see less healers. I for one will admit that i'm going to try out the new Balance tree. I'm currently 8/11/31 so I get the best of all 3 trees but now I got some fun stuff to look forward too. The Moonkin form will give you a lot of DPS and have the armor of a Bear. Plus you'll be able to hit enemies from farther away in Moonkin form with Nature's Reach and do more damage to them with Moonfury. Not to mention you'd be sacrificing less mana with Moonglow. Speaking of Moonglow, it also lowers the mana cost of Healing Touch, Regrowth, and Rejuvenation so, you'd still be getting Resto benefits if you switched to Balance.

Now you also be seeing many Feral/Restoration druids. With the new Heart of the Wild, you will recieve a 20% intellect bonus so you'll have a bigger mana tree. This could bring about a lot of 0/26/25 builds so you get Heart of the Wild and Natures swiftness. With the bigger mana pool innervate wont be as important. I'm going to do a lot of playing around with the talents after the patch before I decide where i'm going to stay.

- W

[Zarathustra]

The new feral and balance talents will help the druid class tremendously. You will see more Feral and Balance druids then you did before. However, you will probabaly see less healers.[right][snapback]90145[/snapback][/right]

Druids CAN heal, therefore they should be prepared to do so if needed. I've been a Balance Druid since day one. That doesn't mean I don't heal. I'm sure we'll see a group of Druids who refuse to leave Moonkin form when partied. Those will be the same Druids unable to find a party later on.

[Awolfscry]

Druids CAN heal, therefore they should be prepared to do so if needed.&nbsp; I've been a Balance Druid since day one.&nbsp; That doesn't mean I don't heal.&nbsp; I'm sure we'll see a group of Druids who refuse to leave Moonkin form when partied.&nbsp; Those will be the same Druids unable to find a party later on.
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Your 100% correct, I just mean less healers as in less Restoration specced.

Suppose I should have been more specific.

[Artega]

Druids CAN heal, therefore they should be prepared to do so if needed.&nbsp; I've been a Balance Druid since day one.&nbsp; That doesn't mean I don't heal.&nbsp; I'm sure we'll see a group of Druids who refuse to leave Moonkin form when partied.&nbsp; Those will be the same Druids unable to find a party later on.
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So Moonkin form is similar to Shadowform, in that you can cast only Balance spells while in it? If this is so, I really think that they need to rethink the 360% Armor bonus while in the form, especially in light of the 3% bonus to spell crit chance that you also get while in the form. Assuming that Balance Druids exchange high-Armor leather and Armor-boosting items (e.g. rings, trinkets, staves) for low-Armor leather and some Cloth, the 360% Armor boost will still bring them up to the level of a two-handed mail wearer, and possibly even a mail+shield wearer, depending on how much Armor they sacrifice in exchange for a larger Mana pool. While I think that a small Armor boost is called for (since Druids don't have the kiting spells and abilities that Mages have, and don't have the ginormous HP reserves Warlocks have), I think the same 360% that Dire Bear form gets is ludicrous.

[Brista]

Mmm, reality check

Looked at broadly, the options for druids are basically unchanged

PvP

Option 1 Balance Moonfire spammer. Starfire is nice on a rooted target but will usually break the root so effectively you cast two spells to land one nuke. Most Balance Druids kill things by either being part of a large pack of players where if you root someone he's dead 2 seconds later, trampled under the zerg or by using a mana potion because generally speaking a full mana pool is barely enough to kill a similar level character who can't self-heal. This build tends to come down to chasing badly wounded players with moonfire spam then drinking

Option 2 Healer for a group of real pvpers


PvE solo and 5 man

The class's full range of options is available with no bad choices. Feral, Resto and even the thirsty Balance perform well

PvE end game raid

Option 1 Resto healer

Option 2 Half-strength nuker who boosts other nukers' crits by 3%

Option 3 Half-strength rogue who boosts other melee crits by 3%. I deliberately don't say Hunters because all of the Hunters will be more than 30 yards from the melee, now that their longer range talent got moved down the tree

Since Options 2 & 3 clearly aren't worth it Druids will still have to be Resto for MC/BWL. I mean cmon, in your 5 man team would you like a dual wield dps warrior with good weapons or a Kitty druid and a 3% crit buff to tank and rogue?


So lots of fun new shiny toys but to claim that this new talent tree creates game balance issues just isn't accurate imo

[Brista]

Another interesting build I've spotted is combining these two:

Nature's Grace - rank 1/1

Minimum Level: 30
Requires 20 points in Balance Mastery
All spell criticals grace you with a blessing of nature, reducing the casting time of your next spell by 0.5 sec.


Improved Regrowth - rank 5/5

Minimum Level: 35
Requires 25 points in Restoration Mastery
Increases the critical effect chance of your Regrowth spell by 50%.


I think this would be a very good pvp healer build. I've found Healing Touch very hard to use in pvp. 3.5 seconds generally means my target is out of range or dead. I realise it can be reduced to 3.0 seconds with 1.8 talents but that still feels a bit too long

With this combo you could run around putting Regrowths on people that take 1.5 seconds to cast when you have the blessing of nature or 2 seconds otherwise. Level 60 Regrowth is a pretty nice heal: 1k now (1.5K on crit) with a 1k heal over time (plus up to +10% with talents). By comparison the top flash heal is about 900 untalented, 10% more talented, for a 1.5 sec cast

It costs you Innervate so the trade-off is mana regen for casting time which I think I can accept

This is the build I just came up with, a very thirsty build which is good for casting Regrowth, Rejuvenate, Insect Swarm, Roots and Moonfire:

Minimum Required Level: 60
Required Talent Points: 51

Balance Talents - 21 points

Nature's Grasp - rank 1/1
Improved Nature's Grasp - rank 4/4
Improved Entangling Roots - rank 3/3
Improved Moonfire - rank 5/5
Nature's Reach - rank 2/2
Vengeance - rank 5/5
Nature's Grace - rank 1/1

Restoration Talents - 30 points

Improved Mark of the Wild - rank 5/5
Improved Healing Touch - rank 5/5
Nature's Focus - rank 5/5
Reflection - rank 3/3
Insect Swarm - rank 1/1
Improved Rejuvenation - rank 1/3
Nature's Swiftness - rank 1/1
Gift of Nature - rank 4/5
Improved Regrowth - rank 5/5

[Bun-Bun]

Option 3 Half-strength rogue who boosts other melee crits by 3%. I deliberately don't say Hunters because all of the Hunters will be more than 30 yards from the melee, now that their longer range talent got moved down the tree
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Except that Leader of the Pack has a 45 yard range. I can see a use for a LotP druid grouped with rogues and hunters, especially since the "half-strength rogue" can drop to healing mode if things go awry.

[Zarathustra]

Looked at broadly, the options for druids are basically unchanged...

..Since Options 2 & 3 clearly aren't worth it Druids will still have to be Resto for MC/BWL.[right][snapback]90275[/snapback][/right]

That's not really looking at things broadly... but semantics are best argued in another thread.

I get a good chuckle anytime someone states that X class MUST be Y build in order to enter Z dungeon. And since the Druid is my pet class in WoW, this comment - at the Lounge, of all places - stuck out in my mind.

I'm playing a Balance Druid and have been quite successful in the Molten Core. We've gotten as far as Domo on a farming basis now, and he should be going down within a week or two once we get everyone on the same page for dealing with the adds. Granted, I've not been further than Razorgore in BWL, so maybe there's some mystical property to that instance that means I'll be useless there. If so, I have neither seen nor heard of it.

Our typical Group 1 setup in the Molten Core is the main tank, main priest, a Paladin, Warlock, and myself, a Balance Druid. I play all across the board. The high crit% I have with spells means Nature's Grace kicks in often for a faster heal, and I've been doing it well enough that my gear compensates for some of the relatively weaker healing I'm seeing. I use Hurricane to slow enemy attacks on anything that doesn't have an AoE. It comes in very handy for Core Hound packs, Garr, Sulfuron, and Golemagg. Aside from that I spend my time decursing and, if we lose a warrior, going Dire Bear and filling in as an offtank.

So what am I missing? Innervate and Nature's Swiftness. *shrugs* I have to cope with that.

Come v1.8, I'll be shifting in and out of Moonkin form as needed during the battles. While in Moonkin form, the crit% will aid the warlock when he's nuking, the Paladin (holy spec = free spells on crits), and the Priest for a greater chance of Inspiration on casting. I'd call the critical heals a liability if not for the experience of all involved. Healers don't generally pull aggro for us.

Just wanted to give that example, showing firsthand that you don't NEED to be Restoration in order to go into the Molten Core. The comment rubbed me the wrong way, on a forum that has celebrated variants and thinking outside of the narrowminded box so many feel constrained to. I don't like hearing anyone say you NEED to be a cookie-cutter build.

[TheWesson]

And now Druids move ahead of mages for single-target magic damage.&nbsp; Oh God, when will it stop?
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What makes you think a Balance druid could outnuke a mage?

You can get pretty high DPS with moonfire spam, with a tremendous waste of mana. Other than that, won't Balance druids be the same moderate-DPS class they've always been, moonkin-form or not? I don't see much change for Balance DPS in 1.8. So I think the "mage in plate" take on this is offbase. Less DPS, less crowd control compared to mages.

Druid soloing same-level elite:
1.7: Moonfire, faery fire, bear form, tank tank tank, caster form, heal, moonfire, bear form ...
1.8: Moonkin form, faery fire, moonfire, melee but moonfire every time OOC procs, shift out to heal, back to moonkin form ... Can't just spam moonfire because you'd go out of mana.

The big upside for Moonkin form would seem to be farming masses of lower-level melee critters, with imp thorns, moonfire on each, and the occasional barkskin+hurricane. Mages or priests have to use CC techniques on 3+ same-level mobs; not so the Moonkin. Of course the Moonkin will still be vulnerable to caster mobs (or players) and offers small benefit over caster form in that state.

As for PVP vs rogue or warrior or shaman - well, Moonkin form would help you survive a surprise attack but to actually win a 1-on-1 you'd still need distance and a window of time to heal self. Toe-to-toe melee+casting in Moonkin form ... hmm, I think not so much.

edit: All the same, I'm looking forward to finding out just what Moonkin can do!

[Artega]

I don't see much change for Balance DPS in 1.8.&nbsp; So I think the "mage in plate" take on this is offbase. [right][snapback]90329[/snapback][/right]

Just how paladins are considered priests in plate. They aren't as good at healing as Priests are, but their durability and other abilities make up for the difference.

Likewise, Moonkin Druids won't have the same CC abilities and overall DPS as Mages, but they'll have a crapton more Armor, as well as the ability to quickly shift out to caster form for a quick Regrowth+Rejuvenation.

I honestly think 360% is too much for Moonkin. I do think that they need an Armor buff (because without it they'd be like gimped Mages), but something along the lines of 100%-200%, not 360%.

[Skandranon]

I don't see much change for Balance DPS in 1.8. [right][snapback]90329[/snapback][/right]

I do.

1.7 Improved Starfire - 3% chance to stun for 3 seconds per point.
1.8 Improved Starfire - -0.1s casting time and 3% chance to stun for 3 seconds per point. Maxed out, it reduces Starfire's cast from 3.5s to 3.0s.

Starfire just got a 14% boost in DPS.

Frostbolt: 429-463 damage, with talents, 2.5s cast time. DPS = 178.4
Starfire: 445-525 damage, with talents, 3.0s cast time. DPS = 161.6

Pure frostbolt is still stronger, except that druids have an instant-cast DoT and mages don't.

Moonfire: 205 dps for one second (at cast), 32 dps DoT for the next 12 seconds.

This is without factoring in the fact that frost spells only get up to +6% in damage from talents and starfire/moonfire get +10%, along with the fact that moonfire gets huge damage and crit chance increases from talents and frostbolt doesn't. Nor does this count Nature's Grace and the fact that every critical results in a flurry-like effect of temporarily increased DPS.

Even factoring all those out, druids sustain ~190 dps on targets burning from moonfire and getting starfired, and have short 200 dps bursts when they refresh their moonfire. Mages hold a line at 178.4. +damage gear, assuming equal amounts, tilts slightly in Starfire's favour as well - it gets 100% of the bonus and Frostbolt gets 81.4%.

Mages are still more efficient. But I'm not quite sure that as a DPS class, the mage should be "fifth best and third most efficient single-target damage in the game".

[Kevin]

I do.

1.7 Improved Starfire - 3% chance to stun for 3 seconds per point.
1.8 Improved Starfire - -0.1s casting time and 3% chance to stun for 3 seconds per point.&nbsp; Maxed out, it reduces Starfire's cast from 3.5s to 3.0s.

Starfire just got a 14% boost in DPS.

Frostbolt: 429-463 damage, with talents, 2.5s cast time.&nbsp; DPS = 178.4
Starfire: 445-525 damage, with talents, 3.0s cast time.&nbsp; DPS = 161.6

Pure frostbolt is still stronger, except that druids have an instant-cast DoT and mages don't.

Moonfire: 205 dps for one second (at cast), 32 dps DoT for the next 12 seconds.

This is without factoring in the fact that frost spells only get up to +6% in damage from talents and starfire/moonfire get +10%, along with the fact that moonfire gets huge damage and crit chance increases from talents and frostbolt doesn't.&nbsp; Nor does this count Nature's Grace and the fact that every critical results in a flurry-like effect of temporarily increased DPS.&nbsp;

Even factoring all those out, druids sustain ~190 dps on targets burning from moonfire and getting starfired, and have short 200 dps bursts when they refresh their moonfire.&nbsp; Mages hold a line at 178.4.&nbsp; +damage gear, assuming equal amounts, tilts slightly in Starfire's favour as well - it gets 100% of the bonus and Frostbolt gets 81.4%.&nbsp;

Mages are still more efficient.&nbsp; But I'm not quite sure that as a DPS class, the mage should be&nbsp; "fifth best and third most efficient single-target damage in the game".
[right][snapback]90362[/snapback][/right]

It's actually worse than that because wrath got a 10% damage boost as well and while starfire got a bigger damage boost than wrath did, wrath is still going to out DPS it unless my math is way off.

Fully talented wrath would be 236 - 264 * 1.1 = 260 - 290 damage at 164 mana per cast 1.5 second cast. So 183 DPS. So 1.52 damage per mana. Sure you lose the stun chance but you are doing more damage with it than starfire when it is fully talented and a 1.5 second cast can generally avoid stutter when you get hit.

Starfires damage would be higher than what you had with talents as well. It would be:
490 - 578 damage with full talents behind it. So 178 DPS. 287 mana per cast of it. So what, 1.86 damage per mana.

Neither are great on mana efficiency but the druid DPS will be higher than what you had stated I think. And if you look at using a wrath crit to cast a 2.5 second moonfire you can do even more.

Oh and insect swarm is only 11 points into restoration. And while rank one is only 5.5 DPS more it has ranks as well. So I would imagine that you can sneak one of those in there to up the DPS some too as well as dropping a melee class's to hit by 2% while you sit in your 5000 or so armor (I think that is what Taranna has in bear from in her caster gear right now)

So yes these talent changes should pretty easily allow a balance druid to do more single target DPS than a mage. And with hurricane being a buyable and targetable spell druids will have hunteresque AoE with some more damage reduction functions.

[Brista]

That's not really looking at things broadly... but semantics are best argued in another thread.

I get a good chuckle anytime someone states that X class MUST be Y build in order to enter Z dungeon.  And since the Druid is my pet class in WoW, this comment - at the Lounge, of all places - stuck out in my mind.

I'm playing a Balance Druid and have been quite successful in the Molten Core.  We've gotten as far as Domo on a farming basis now, and he should be going down within a week or two once we get everyone on the same page for dealing with the adds.  Granted, I've not been further than Razorgore in BWL, so maybe there's some mystical property to that instance that means I'll be useless there.  If so, I have neither seen nor heard of it.

Our typical Group 1 setup in the Molten Core is the main tank, main priest, a Paladin, Warlock, and myself, a Balance Druid.  I play all across the board.  The high crit% I have with spells means Nature's Grace kicks in often for a faster heal, and I've been doing it well enough that my gear compensates for some of the relatively weaker healing I'm seeing.  I use Hurricane to slow enemy attacks on anything that doesn't have an AoE.  It comes in very handy for Core Hound packs, Garr, Sulfuron, and Golemagg.  Aside from that I spend my time decursing and, if we lose a warrior, going Dire Bear and filling in as an offtank.

So what am I missing?  Innervate and Nature's Swiftness.  *shrugs*  I have to cope with that.

Come v1.8, I'll be shifting in and out of Moonkin form as needed during the battles.  While in Moonkin form, the crit% will aid the warlock when he's nuking, the Paladin (holy spec = free spells on crits), and the Priest for a greater chance of Inspiration on casting.  I'd call the critical heals a liability if not for the experience of all involved.  Healers don't generally pull aggro for us.

Just wanted to give that example, showing firsthand that you don't NEED to be Restoration in order to go into the Molten Core.  The comment rubbed me the wrong way, on a forum that has celebrated variants and thinking outside of the narrowminded box so many feel constrained to.  I don't like hearing anyone say you NEED to be a cookie-cutter build.
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OK, I apologise, I'm guilty of something I've criticised other people for of spouting back a phrase commonly used by the WoW public without properly considering it

And it's not appropriate, you can be an under-powered variant or even a level 1 alt and still do well in endgame raids if the other people can pick up the slack

But the question is, is a non-Resto Druid an underpowered variant in end game raids?

I would argue that, as I explained previously, it is indeed that and that while you may not need Resto to function in MC you might need Resto to secure a place on a raid if you're raiding with people who are seeking to optimise, people who aren't tolerant of interesting but sub-optimal builds (ie 99% of the end game raiding population)

In 1.8 if you're mainly nuking then are you pulling the weight that a mage or a warlock would? Even with the +3% buff to others I suspect that overall more damage would be done by the group if they had a specialist

If you're nuking and healing as appropriate then can I question your raid organisation? Why aren't the specialist healers doing the healing?

If you're mainly healing with the occasional nuke tossed around then you're surely sub-optimal without Resto

I'm not denigrating your build but I am questioning it. I don't see how it would help most teams as much as a Resto build would. Maybe in your raids you have too many healers so it helps if some of the druids are Balance and some of the Priests are Shadow. Or maybe your guild is sufficiently ahead of the difficulty curve that it doesn't require everyone to optimise

But from your specific situation, it's hard to draw a general assertion that counters the one I made up-thread. Specifically, that Balance spec means a half-strength nuker is taking the place of a real nuker. Sure you have versatility but I really can't see how a big raid needs hybrid versatility. And I'm also thinking that 20 in Balance (which will get you more crits + bigger crits) plus Innervate and Nature's Swiftness is simply a better hybrid than a mainly Balance spec since Innervate and NS add flexibility which is what the hybrid role is about

So please make the case for those of us who would like to try end-game Feral or Moonkin form in raids beyond the rather basic outline you've given. Because that outline to some extent comes down to my guild lets me and I'm a good player. The only concrete tactical thing that you've mentioned that's a positive resulting from your talent allocation is Nature's Grace. Can you give details of your damage meter rankings if you and other nukers are going all out?

As for the LL and variants while it's partly true that we champion underpowered variants for their own sake, one of the ways we've always done it is by demonstrating that variants can be really good. Will that the case with 31 Balance Druids in 1.8? Or with 31 Feral Druids?

[Skandranon]

Fully talented wrath would be 236 - 264 * 1.1 = 260 - 290 damage at 164 mana per cast 1.5 second cast.&nbsp; So 183 DPS. So 1.52 damage per mana. Sure you lose the stun chance but you are doing more damage with it than starfire when it is fully talented and a 1.5 second cast can generally avoid stutter when you get hit.
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Damn, I didn't even think about wrath. You're right. Wrath and moonfire let a druid break 200 easily. And they also get to AoE with 360% extra armour. Oh, and they can decurse.

I've always maintained that for the majority of MC bosses, the optimal number of mages is zero. It's just more obvious now.

[Skandranon]

In 1.8 if you're mainly nuking then are you pulling the weight that a mage or a warlock would? Even with the +3% buff to others I suspect that overall more damage would be done by the group if they had a specialist[right][snapback]90380[/snapback][/right]

Two replies up, Brista. You suspect wrong. Balance druids will outnuke mages, period.

[Kevin]

OK, I apologise, I'm guilty of something I've criticised other people for of spouting back a phrase commonly used by the WoW public without properly considering it

And it's not appropriate, you can be an under-powered variant or even a level 1 alt and still do well in endgame raids if the other people can pick up the slack

But the question is, is a non-Resto Druid an underpowered variant in end game raids?

I would argue that, as I explained previously, it is indeed that and that while you may not need Resto to function in MC you might need Resto to secure a place on a raid if you're raiding with people who are seeking to optimise, people who aren't tolerant of interesting but sub-optimal builds (ie 99% of the end game raiding population)

In 1.8 if you're mainly nuking then are you pulling the weight that a mage or a warlock would? Even with the +3% buff to others I suspect that overall more damage would be done by the group if they had a specialist

If you're nuking and healing as appropriate then can I question your raid organisation? Why aren't the specialist healers doing the healing?

If you're mainly healing with the occasional nuke tossed around then you're surely sub-optimal without Resto

I'm not denigrating your build but I am questioning it. I don't see how it would help most teams as much as a Resto build would. Maybe in your raids you have too many healers so it helps if some of the druids are Balance and some of the Priests are Shadow. Or maybe your guild is sufficiently ahead of the difficulty curve that it doesn't require everyone to optimise

But from your specific situation, it's hard to draw a general assertion that counters the one I made up-thread. Specifically, that Balance spec means a half-strength nuker is taking the place of a real nuker. Sure you have versatility but I really can't see how a big raid needs hybrid versatility. And I'm also thinking that 20 in Balance (which will get you more crits + bigger crits) plus Innervate and Nature's Swiftness is simply a better hybrid than a mainly Balance spec since Innervate and NS add flexibility which is what the hybrid role is about

So please make the case for those of us who would like to try end-game Feral or Moonkin form in raids beyond the rather basic outline you've given. Because that outline to some extent comes down to my guild lets me and I'm a good player. The only concrete tactical thing that you've mentioned that's a positive resulting from your talent allocation is Nature's Grace. Can you give details of your damage meter rankings if you and other nukers are going all out?

As for the LL and variants while it's partly true that we champion underpowered variants for their own sake, one of the ways we've always done it is by demonstrating that variants can be really good. Will that the case with 31 Balance Druids in 1.8? Or with 31 Feral Druids?
[right][snapback]90380[/snapback][/right]

Well take a look at Skan's and my post's earlier. A 1.8 balance druid will be a better nuker than a mage in MC, because mages aren't very good single target nukers right now as it is. As mentioned a 1.7 balance druid brings some nice benefits to the table with hurricane. We already try to have warriors that aren't actively tanking make sure a thunderclap stays up on most of the mobs. I could see hurricane being more valuable on the core hound packs than an extra innervate. Though all druids will have that in 1.8 but slowwing attacks by 20% means less serrated bites and less damage. Not sure if the 10 seconds of less damage that it does right now and the high mana costs justifies it anywhere else in MC in 1.7.

As for only healing now and then. On trash mobs two priests can pretty much provide all the healing you need. 4 priests, 2 druids, and 2 paladins can pretty much provide all the healing you need on most of the boss fights as well, heck that is probably more healing than you need if things go right. But things don't always go right, so having a nuker that can change over to healing is a good thing for me.

My resto/feral druid in cat form in her hybrid gear (higher mana pool less agi and strenght gear) is able to sustain 130 DPS in instance like scholo and strat, similarly equipped roges (meaning same number of set, blue, and green pieces, my gear is still pretty poor) are at about 160 to 170 DPS in the same places from the runs I remember so in that gear I run about 80% of a rogues DPS. Not sure how that will translate to Molten Core as I've never gone cat there though I have tanked corehound packs in bear form because of class balance for that raid. I still have 3650HP and 4230MP in this gear (which is 200 HP more and 900MP less than my current normal MC gear). My crit rate in cat is only 12.25% with 8.21% dodge in this gear though. Though it is only a base attack power of 500. If I went full feral in 1.8 in this hybrid gear (not my full out cat or even my bear/cat balance gear) I would have 4850 mana (20% more intellect), 117 more AP, 4% more dodge, 4% more crit, my backstab would cost 2 less energy, my ferocius bite would 15% more damage and all my other specials besides shred would do 20% more damage. That much more attack power is 9 more DPS right there. Ferocious bite, is about 30% of my total damage when my numbers are higher so it would be about 39 of the 130 DPS I do. A 15% increase on that is 5 more DPS. Claw is about 10% of my DPS so a 20% increase to that is about 2 more DPS. 4% more crit would be about 5 more DPS as well, so 21 DPS more now. Yeah I'm only 88% of a similar level of gear rogue but I still have 4850 mana that can be used to jump out and heal. I'm also boosting 3 or 4 other peoples (depending on the group I'm in) crit by 3%. Lets look at 3 rogues of the similar gearing take that 170 DPS (I've got some save MC data that has rogues anywhere from 130 to 205 DPS). Basic calc says that will put them all at about 175 DPS. So 15 DPS there if just 3 rogues. Mine was at 151 so if you give that 15 DPS to me I'm at 166 so I'm now almost as good as rogue and if things go wrong I can still heal nearly as well as I used to be able to with full resto spec. Actually since my healing touch will be a 3 second cast now I might heal better because I'll have fewer of them CT interrupted and hence land more of them and healing touch is still the most mana efficient heal I have at 3 second cast it will also be the best healing per second spell. It's 588 HP/s 2.61 HP/MP untalented right now. 618 HP/s 3.22 HPmMP fully talented right now. With just the speed up talent it goes to 686 HP/s without any other talents behind it. A full resto in 1.8 won't have the same mana efficiency as they do now since they will only be able to get 10% vs the current 15% mana reduction (though a split resto/balance can drop the cost by 19%) on healing touch. A weak rejuv doesn't really matter in MC.

So what do I give up for this, really? I give up a few hundred HP per heal but my 1.8 feral/restoration spec, compared to my 1.7 restoration/feral spec will actually be able to heal more HP/sec with a faster healing touch. Actually the build I'm thinking about will still have +8% to all my healing so I'll give up a chance to avoid interruption while casting not healing power and in a MC group that should matter. I give up innervate which honestly seems to me to be something that is only needed when things go wrong or if you are thin on healing. I lose natures swiftness which again is only really needed if things go wrong. In a group of 3 rogues I'll be essentially as good as a rogue in mostly blues and greens and if I want to go full cat gear (another umm 210 AP with 1.8 talents) it'd be even better than that though I'd lose versatility because I'd cut my mana pool a lot. There are some pieces of wildheart that I'm missing that would help me get more AP while holding onto my mana pool, there is other gear I could get that is blue that would make me better than this right now as well and there are purples that I could wear that would probably let me tweak the hybrid gear even better if I had them. But anyway you can have a rogue that is in blues and greens for gear that can also heal if things go wrong with a 1.8 feral druid. That in my book makes up for the loss of innervate or NS.

This build will give up a fair bit in healing 5 mans though where I find that I've used innervate a lot more often and since I won't have the interruptiong avoidance getting aggro in a 5 man is more of a problem as well.

Of course to me restoration builds have always been more about being a better only healer in a 5 man than being a better raid healer. Unless you let the druids be the primary healer on the main tanks most of their healing power is wasted in the high end raids anyway. A druid is a better single target healer than a priest, paladin, or shaman (the exception being a priest that is fully invested into greater healing and uses that as the primary heal spell but priests don't do that). But they aren't as good as healing multiple people as any of those classes because they have to burn a lot of mana to do so. Regrowth even when it crits is bad on the mana pool since you are looking at about 2 HP/MP without the HoT and well you lose a lot of what the HoT can heal when others are slapping heals on there as the tick will either not go off because of full health or you won't get full heal from the tick or you casting another regrowth a few seconds later and overwriting your own HoT and wasting it. In MC where you generally have several people casting faster heals a druid is wasting a lot of mana to be able to land a heal or is sitting around watching healing touch get interrupted a lot.

So yeah with the damage boost to feral (and I'm considering the boost you can do to others as a boost to yourself for purposes of should I take this druid over this rogue or this hunter or this other druid) and to balance yeah losing an innervate or a natures swiftness is fine. Actually on the last 3 Molten Core runs and one Onyxia run that I've had Taranna on (and our alliance is not flush with healers) I've used Natures Swiftness twice and only one time did it seem that it mattered and innervate once, and that was on Golemag as was one of the natures swiftnesses. Check with your druids see how often they actually use these skills and check how often they feel those skills make a difference. So yeah I've used them combined 3 runs out of 4 and I don't think they prevented a wipe in any case, I do think they prevented the death of an off tank but the tanking would have been picked up by another warrior and we still wouldn't have wiped anyway.

Now again those skills have made a big difference when I've been healing 5 mans or even just in my duo with Treesh's rogue, I'll be a lot less comfortable as a 5 man healer without them, if I'm the only healer (which I often have been) but I won't really miss them in a raid most of the time.

So I don't know if that will convince you. But I'm not all that convinced the skills are that valuable in 1.7 and the alternatives you will have in 1.8 make them seem even less so. Heck a 1.8 moonkin giving 3% more crit chance to a heal spec paladin might give you as much mana back as a innervate would have over the course of a boss fight. Then again maybe I don't use innervate and NS as much as or as well as I could.

[Brista]

Two replies up, Brista.  You suspect wrong.  Balance druids will outnuke mages, period.
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Yes I saw your post and I was meaning to reply to it sooner.

Fire does more than Frost. So using the Mage's weaker nuke to compare with the Druid's strongest is a false argument, unless you are specifically referring to MC. In which case your statement should be Balance druids will outnuke mages in MC, not will outnuke them period

Mana plays a huge part in this. If the druid can outnuke the mage for 20 seconds but then goes oom in half the time, the mage may still be the better nuker on a tough raid boss. Frost Bolt is the most mana efficient of the repeatable Mage nukes and can be specced for even greater mana efficiency

Next the Wrath/Moonfire druid is using two damage types so will not benefit so much from + damage items as a specialist like a Frost mage

Next the Mage can add two powerful instants in to the mix

And lastly in terms of pure dps output the Mage can raise the whole output by 33% and toss in a POM Pyroblast if the issue of burst damage becomes important

I'd like to be persuaded that druid offers a character where you can function in any of three different roles with acceptable performance. I'm not sure that this is true, although I'm more persuaded than I was at the beginning of this thread, so thanks for the illumination so far :)

Edit: cross-posted with Gnollguy

[Tuftears]

Innervate and nature's swiftness are emergency measures, to be sure - but on the recent ZG runs I've been doing, we've been seeing those emergencies come up quite often.

Innervate restores about 3 to 4k mana for me given my current spirit, or can be cast on a priest or mage for a handy pick-me-up, i.e. a priest has just been OOC-rezzed, but won't be doing us any good until she's back up to speed. A feral build with Heart of the Wild simply gives me almost 1k extra mana. From the raid standpoint, innervate is a bigger win.

On the other hand... I worked out the +damage from the feral talents. It's about 40% beyond what I have now with my restoration/feral build. I already hit 115 base dps in my cat gear, probably 180 after counting skills. Given that, feral cats will probably be able to compete with rogues head-on in damage, plus they can back off and turn into backup healers/battle-rezzers when needed. (they'd have to since bandaging in form is a no-sell)

So, this is a tough decision. A skillful, well equipped druid is going to be a match for the character class that she's emulating - but she has to specialize her talents that way. And restoration druids are going to be better prepared with wipe-savers. Neither balance nor feral druids will have that. But, both will make the raid perform better.

I was set to go feral when I saw the new talents, but now, not so sure.

[Brista]

Excellent post, Gnollguy

OK, I'm convinced that 31 Resto isn't necessary, thanks very much for your time and expertise everyone