Raiding as we go forward

[Tuftears]

As a quick note:

This situation would more than likely get only worse once Zul'Gurub opens up. The developers have indicated that once players get some experience with the raid area, that it should be possible to do in about 2 hours (not sure if they really meant a full clear or to get to certain objectives). This opens up even more cases of players starting to miss raids and potentially having detriments applied to them.

I will not be using a point-based system or other 40-man loot allocation system for the Zul'gurub runs I lead, at least initially. It will be handled more like a UBRS raid, because that's what it's closer to in size - thus, one need per person, with rares, sets, and epics counting as needs, and a 'can and will use' roll to keep good items from being vendored or DE'd when someone can use them.

[Ruvanal]

As a quick note:
I will not be using a point-based system or other 40-man loot allocation system for the Zul'gurub runs I lead, at least initially.  It will be handled more like a UBRS raid, because that's what it's closer to in size - thus, one need per person, with rares, sets, and epics counting as needs, and a 'can and will use' roll to keep good items from being vendored or DE'd when someone can use them.
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Until we know what and how much is getting dropped in there; it will be impossible to determine if some sort of system is needed. For a more standard type of distribution like 'Group Loot-Uncommon or Better' to work, you will need enough drops per player to help even out what all end up recieving. That can work for a UBRS run because there will likely be 10+ drops per player (150+ mobs taken out) so that there is a good enough spread on the items and most players should get something. Even then there are sometimes some disputes on the prime loots when it involves participants from out side the core of alliance characters.

The need of some sort of loot allocation system starts to become needed when the number of overall drops compared to the number of players starts dropping to lower amounts (10 or less loots per player?). If the Zul'Gurub runs can generate at least 10 loots per player, then such a system will likely not be needed. But for a 20 character group that would need 200+ mobs of elite quality drops to qualify. But will a group really be taking out 200+ mobs in only about 120 minutes? That would work out to about 1 mob taken out every 36 seconds. That kind of rate seems a bit high to me and why I suspect that much of the area will not be generating enough loot to fall back on the looting methods that are often used in the earlier areas like BRS. With apparently 3/5 of each classes sets being given out by quest rewards or 'purchase' after earning reputation, it leads me to suspect that there are not as many options for getting loot as there are in the non-raid instances.

[Tuftears]

The way I see it, a fair number of 'coins' and other quest items will be dropped by the mobs that we kill, probably as green-level loot, possibly as blue loot from the bosses. These can be redeemed, in sufficient numbers, for set items from questgivers or turned in for reputation. Apart from that there are probably around five bosses that need to be killed, then Hakkar himself. I expect blue items to drop from the bosses, with a chance of BOP epic items.

Given that everyone will be after these redeemable quest items, depending on how many of them drop, I may suggest that only those who still need them for a set item quest should roll on 'need', and anyone who receives a rare token should go to 'greed' on the quest items for the rest of the raid.

As for the supposition that 20 players will need to kill 1 creature per 36 seconds - you just said 15 players would kill 150+ creatures in 2 hours in UBRS, so why wouldn't 20 players kill 200+ creatures in 2 hours in Zul'gurub?

[kandrathe]

Unless you have another, undisclosed and non-obvious, reason why you don't like the council idea at all, these two statements don't seem to mesh.

Obviously, if everyone felt the council was trustworthy, there'd never be a problem (except perhaps for some bruised egos on the part of people who think they do more than they do).

Not that I want anything to do with handing out gear where I think it's most suited to go.  I gotta score SOME loot before Anadrol... =P
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One problem with a council is perceived unfairness. Human's by nature are discriminatory, and tend toward cliques or tribalism. That is, without knowing or acknowledging it, we tend to move toward and empower our unconcious preferences. Mirajj in another post suggested his frustration with the perception that everyones sole focus was on gearing up our warriors, without any consideration to the needs of rogues, mages, priests, or other classes.

This is an example, so don't read into this anything, but for instance; When we last downed Lucifron you chose to give the tranq shot to Mirajj, when it would have been more pragmatic to give it to a hunter who was able to commit to this Thursday. Why? Mirajj won't be able to use his tranq shot in this MC cycle, and we will get another in the next MC cycle. You don't need to explain, but it is an example of how "favoritism" could be read in your actions. Luckily, we didn't get the dreaded, Enrage, Fear, Tranq Miss scenario and our two hunters were able to handle Magmadar.

So, you and the entire loot council may believe that your actions are entirely fair. That doesn't mean that there will not be a perceived unfairness, and the more secret or hidden the "contribution" is, then the more percieved unfairness there will be.

[Mirajj]

This is an example, so don't read into this anything, but for instance;  When we last downed Lucifron you chose to give the tranq shot to Mirajj, when it would have been more pragmatic to give it to a hunter who was able to commit to this Thursday.  Why?  Mirajj won't be able to use his tranq shot in this MC cycle, and we will get another in the next MC cycle.  You don't need to explain, but it is an example of how "favoritism" could be read in your actions.  Luckily, we didn't get the dreaded, Enrage, Fear, Tranq Miss scenario and our two hunters were able to handle Magmadar. 
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Because of several things, as I see it. Monday was supposed to be a quick and easy run. Luci was supposed to go down, and then Magmadar right after that. But Bad Things Happened, lag interfered, and Luci took much more than he should have. Then, after a couple of Mag attempts, faced with a respawn after the bad Luci fight, people just didn't want to.

Thursday...my shot would have been used...if the raid had gotten moving on time. I had an hour and a half...and spent half that time standing around in the starting point to MC. When I had to leave, after 45 minutes of fighting, we were just about at the first dog pack. Had we gotten moving on time, we'd have had the Shot for at least a handful (if needed) of attempts.

So the two attempts to use my Shot in the same cycle I got it were there. It is just bad luck that Porlupus' comp has kicked the can ATM, as with 3 Shots, it should be no problem.

However...it sounds like you folks kicked butt anyways! Grats! =D

[kandrathe]

Because of several things, as I see it. Monday was supposed to be a quick and easy run. Luci was supposed to go down, and then Magmadar right after that. But Bad Things Happened, lag interfered, and Luci took much more than he should have. Then, after a couple of Mag attempts, faced with a respawn after the bad Luci fight, people just didn't want to.

Thursday...my shot would have been used...if the raid had gotten moving on time. I had an hour and a half...and spent half that time standing around in the starting point to MC. When I had to leave, after 45 minutes of fighting, we were just about at the first dog pack. Had we gotten moving on time, we'd have had the Shot for at least a handful (if needed) of attempts.

So the two attempts to use my Shot in the same cycle I got it were there. It is just bad luck that Porlupus' comp has kicked the can ATM, as with 3 Shots, it should be no problem.

However...it sounds like you folks kicked butt anyways! Grats! =D
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Yes, I understand that. And, as I said above, I wasn't looking for an explanation. I was using it as an example of how judgements can be 2nd guessed which might lead to perceptions of unfairness. In a few weeks, all the regular Hunter participants will have it and in this case it was not an issue anyway.

One thing that concerns me is the arbitrariness of "participation", and if that is not documented in a public, clear, and visible manner then distortions are naturally going to manifest between the reality of events and the memory of events. Also, showing up every week on time is HUGE, but there is alot more to it than that. And, what the loot council sees, or perceives to be important or unimportant is subjective. For example, in my opinion, a part of the success of taking down Magmadar and Gehennas in one try is due to the efforts of a person who was not even on the raid at all.

[Tuftears]

For example, in my opinion, a part of the success of taking down Magmadar and Gehennas in one try is due to the efforts of a person who was not even on the raid at all.

Whooo! Ghost raiders!

"So there we were, down in the burning pits of Molten Core, sonny, when we saw a haunting sight that I ne'er shall forget as long as I live. It was a ship, me boy, an' it came sailing in through the cavern walls, filled with pirates bristlin' with weapons an' parrots. An' then Van Cleef himself jumped off the ship and solo'd Majordomo Executus, while his crew held off the adds. We were cheering him on, every one of us who'd just wiped, while the lone paladin was rezzin' us all."

"Then he ninja'd the drops too, blast his soul!"

[Sabra]

I've watched the progression of this list idea over the last day(s) and to me it seems about as random as rolling. The most I can say for it is that it might be slightly easier to administer than more complicated distribution schemes.

Further, I feel that anything we implement that we must next go on to "enforce" will be, by definition, punitive to someone at some point in time, and that's just not acceptable. (EX: When my mother dies, and I miss 3, 4, 6 raids, are you dropping me to the bottom of some list upon my return? Of course you aren't. So let's not kid ourselves here.)

I don't like to criticize without offering a solution, but I don't have enough experience or knowledge of reward systems in MMORPGs to add much to this discussion. In the end I can only say, Here's where I'm coming from:

I count on everyone who raids regularly with Avarice to act with honor and discretion in every aspect of play and reward for the good of the raid group.

I count on our members and raid leaders to resolve issues pertaining to every aspect of play and reward for the good of the raid group.

I have confidence in all of our core players and our raid leaders and I'm honored to be part of Avarice.

Everything we've done so far we've done in a spirit of cooperation. I think at the end of the day, fluidity may be what's best for the nature of this particular group. Players who come and go and don't behave in a manner consistent with that philosophy, do not belong with us.

I believe that we are better off relying on the truth and spirit of the statements I've posted here than any system we could devise.

Am I too naive? Maybe so. If so, I'm glad of it.

[Tuftears]

Nothing wrong with those sentiments. It's just a matter of how long it takes to divvy up loot. I mean, for instance, we could spend an hour after a Lucifron kill inspecting everyone who's interested in whatever he just dropped, and find the person for whom it'd be the best upgrade and who hasn't won stuff lately... But in that time, the core hound pack behind Lucifron would have respawned and wiped the raid.

The intent of a looting system, at least one that we would use, is to speed up those deliberations - you want to even out the amount of loot that people get, factoring in the amount of time they've spent raiding with you.

[martini]

I believe that we are better off relying on the truth and spirit of the statements I've posted here than any system we could devise.
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In theory, I agree. In practice, do you really expect everyone in the raid group to have a photographic memory of everyone who's ever come on the raid? Of whether they were on-time or late, of what bosses dropped? To know off-by-heart their participation in past events, as well as the exact state of their current gear and how long it took them to get it? I'd love to just know when I should pass to someone else, but I'm afraid I can't keep those kinds of details straight. Heck, there's no way I could come up with all of the names of the people who raided with us last night!

Ideally, a loot system isn't in opposition to your goal, it just gives us a framework to work within as we apply it - somewhere we can track loot, track attendence, and see who should be rewarded next. I understand that a lot of people oppose such a system, and initially I wasn't much of a fan either, but over the course of many discussions, I realized that even "let's give it to X, he/she deserves it" and /random 1000 (or 40) are systems, and I personally think that they don't serve as well as a zero-sum point system.

[kandrathe]

Whooo!  Ghost raiders!

"So there we were, down in the burning pits of Molten Core, sonny, when we saw a haunting sight that I ne'er shall forget as long as I live.  It was a ship, me boy, an' it came sailing in through the cavern walls, filled with pirates bristlin' with weapons an' parrots.  An' then Van Cleef himself jumped off the ship and solo'd Majordomo Executus, while his crew held off the adds.  We were cheering him on, every one of us who'd just wiped, while the lone paladin was rezzin' us all."

"Then he ninja'd the drops too, blast his soul!"
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And, trust me it was sadly ironic considering the disparaging chatter in Teamspeak.

[martini]

Is this idea still progressing? I was wishing for a loot system in MC when we had the rogue/hunter ring drop... there was talk about hoping that Ramala would win it, but I wasn't sure if I should pass on the roll because of that, or whether I would be allowed to roll and pass the item over... and given that we only have like 30 seconds to decide, I just threw in for the roll because it looked like other hunters were too, and then hoped that I wouldn't win.

Then, the mages were asked to pass on an item in favor of someone who hadn't won anything yet - is this the way that these things will typically be handled? It's the same situation that we had with the ring, only handled differently... is this the best way? Would it be better to ask everyone in the class to roll, and then people can pass the loot on to someone else if they win?

I just feel like right now, I'm not really sure of what I'm supposed to be doing with regards to loot that drops. It made me feel like a bit of a jerk when I put in for that ring, and then a minute later wished I hadn't.

[Tal]

Is this idea still progressing? I was wishing for a loot system in MC when we had the rogue/hunter ring drop... there was talk about hoping that Ramala would win it, but I wasn't sure if I should pass on the roll because of that, or whether I would be allowed to roll and pass the item over... and given that we only have like 30 seconds to decide, I just threw in for the roll because it looked like other hunters were too, and then hoped that I wouldn't win.[right][snapback]87506[/snapback][/right]

And you were fine to do so. NBG and all that. :)

Then, the mages were asked to pass on an item in favor of someone who hadn't won anything yet - is this the way that these things will typically be handled? It's the same situation that we had with the ring, only handled differently... is this the best way? Would it be better to ask everyone in the class to roll, and then people can pass the loot on to someone else if they win?[right][snapback]87506[/snapback][/right]

I was actually concerned about that as I felt that all of the mages should have rolled on it. Yes it was nice that Ellaine was finally rewarded but I also felt it put pressure on the other mages TO pass. I like the idea of allowing those who wish to pass it on to do so.

I just feel like right now, I'm not really sure of what I'm supposed to be doing with regards to loot that drops. It made me feel like a bit of a jerk when I put in for that ring, and then a minute later wished I hadn't.
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Don't feel like a jerk - you had a right to roll on it. :)

[Darian]

I was actually concerned about that as I felt that all of the mages should have rolled on it. Yes it was nice that Ellaine was finally rewarded but I also felt it put pressure on the other mages TO pass. I like the idea of allowing those who wish to pass it on to do so.
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Meeeeh.... grr. What I did Saturday night was simply to make a suggestion; we had two people who'd been on every raid (including alllll those failures on Onyxia) without winning anything, and the opportunity to reward them presented itself. However, I very specifically left it up to the affected classes to decide internally what they would do.

While it's absolutely true that everyone should feel they have a chance at loot, it's also absolutely true that Ellaine and Quark damn well deserved it.

That said, I'd hate to think that anyone felt pressured to pass; it was just a gesture on my part to make the suggestion, and hope it met with approval. Further, I would like to think that those who did pass agreed with the concept, and did so voluntarily because they wanted to.

At any rate, these issues will be worked out soon, and we'll have an actual system of some sort in place.

[Darian]

I just feel like right now, I'm not really sure of what I'm supposed to be doing with regards to loot that drops. It made me feel like a bit of a jerk when I put in for that ring, and then a minute later wished I hadn't.
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"Right now," you're supposed to do what you want to do. Any decision to pass on an item is voluntary, although raid leadership does reserve the right to say, "Look, that's a (class) item, it needs to go to a member of that class who can better utilize it."

It's really important to remember that as time goes on, and we start taking down 4 bosses a night on an MC run, these epics are going to be coming in fast and furious. We got EIGHT epics Saturday night, and 15 total for this week's MC festivities. We get to 4 bosses a night, that's 3/8 of the raid scoring purple on one night. We're all gonna get equipped.

[martini]

Meeeeh.... grr.  What I did Saturday night was simply to make a suggestion; we had two people who'd been on every raid (including alllll those failures on Onyxia) without winning anything, and the opportunity to reward them presented itself.  However, I very specifically left it up to the affected classes to decide internally what they would do.

My concern was not with what was done, it was mostly the difference between the 2 approaches for the same situation. Maybe we just don't like Ramala that much? :P

Anyways, if things are still progressing, that's good enough for me. Hopefully by the time I come back from my trip all will be decided and I won't have to make scary loot decisions anymore. :)

[Quark]

My concern was not with what was done, it was mostly the difference between the 2 approaches for the same situation. Maybe we just don't like Ramala that much? :P
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I specifically didn't want people to not roll on the Quick Strike Ring. It was the 3rd piece of loot Rogues were eligible for, and the first that Hunters were. They at least needed their shot at something.

They tried the same thing with me earlier with the Nightslayer Bracers, but I said no to that, too, because I wouldn't feel right not letting people roll on something that would be so marginal an upgrade for me (DM loot rules!).

[Pesmerga]

I specifically didn't want people to not roll on the Quick Strike Ring.  It was the 3rd piece of loot Rogues were eligible for, and the first that Hunters were.  They at least needed their shot at something.

They tried the same thing with me earlier with the Nightslayer Bracers, but I said no to that, too, because I wouldn't feel right not letting people roll on something that would be so marginal an upgrade for me (DM loot rules!).
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I'll say this much for myself: I make 2 of the 3 raids a week. I'm this close to getting a Core Marksman Rifle. It will be a long time before you see me contesting other hunters for loot.

Quark deserved something, and I'm glad he finally got it. I'm also glad to see that while the idea of passing for someone to get an item was suggested by the leaders, the individual was still left up to decide to pass or not.

Edit: The more I look over my post, the more I think it doesn't make any sense. I think I'm just glad the issue wasn't forced.

[Mirajj]

It's really important to remember that as time goes on, and we start taking down 4 bosses a night on an MC run, these epics are going to be coming in fast and furious.  We got EIGHT epics Saturday night, and 15 total for this week's MC festivities.  We get to 4 bosses a night, that's 3/8 of the raid scoring purple on one night.  We're all gonna get equipped.
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So now that every other class has scored some class specific loot, is it ok if we hunters start sacrificing small children and sheeped mobs to the Lewtz Godz for a little luvin? ;)

[Darian]

So now that every other class has scored some class specific loot, is it ok if we hunters start sacrificing small children and sheeped mobs to the Lewtz Godz for a little luvin? ;)
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Well, you know, there's that post about how people think the random loot seed is based on the raid leader, so it's OBVIOUSLY all my fault, and you'll never get any loot at all. ;)