Dark Clouds Gather

[Sword_of_Doom]

If you think it was bad with Lurkers Skan, it's going to be much, much worse in a month of two with IA.  You think I'm joking, but this is your first MMORPG.  I have seen this happen way too many times with other MMORPGs and friends there and what eventually happened to let it slide this time. 

If you think it's bad that you don't have fun, wait till IA keeps pushing you to do things that you really dread. This is the problem with raiding guilds and raiding guilds will only cause one of two things for someone that joins them, either they burnout and leave the guild because of the strictness or they burnout and leave the game.  Why do you think you're seeing things in IA right now with not enough people for MC or BWL?  Why do you think 11 people almost left IA the other night becuase they didn't want to exploit a bug on the first boss?  You're seeing what happens in a raiding guild before your eyes. 


[right][snapback]84242[/snapback][/right]

I have played other MMO's and have played the Mother of MMO's, Everquest. WoW is Everquest on training wheels. It took me 3 months to get to level 51 in Everquest. It took me 3 months to cap two characters in this game. There was a huge departure from Everquest to WoW because people tired of the level and AA (alternative advancement) grind. WoW offered friendly casual play to a gamer's heart delight.

The problem with WoW is its to freaking easy. Everyone is going to eventually burn out from this game because everything has been trivialized. There is already talk that WoW is on the edge of a precipice and just one circumstance may end this game. There definitely is not enough content for how easy the game is. I played Diablo 2 and Diablo 2: LoD for a few years and i don't foresee myself maybe even playing that amount of time in WoW.

Everyone seems to want to blame the player. Its just not the case in WoW. Its Blizzard fault. They provided too easy a level curve and by the end of year everybody will have a 60 and nothing to do. Most of the WoW crowd doesn't understand or want to 40 man raid, so what is left for the casuals. Endless runs of UBRS, LBRS etc.

Lissa, i have been raiding for 5 months now and it really is the only thing left i enjoy in this game. I had a couple sleepless nights in anticipation of the opening of Blackwing Lair and Blackwing Lair has proven to be some of the best boss encounter designs in any MMO i have played. Blackwing Lair truly requires thinking outside of the box.

I want a challenge and am glad that Blizzard is putting out new content that even the uberest of WoW guilds can't do. Thats the way it should be.

There is a content problem and its not the players fault. All Blizzard had to do was slow down the levelling and make it harder to cap. Then there would have been plenty of content and i am beginning to think we would not have threads like this one.

[kandrathe]

I doubt I'm experiencing what you are then. Maybe due to my age and position (business and home) I've become pretty tolerant of all types of behavior. I haven't had the opportunity to play with you much, and until recently I kept off Ventriilo/TS so I must have missed out on the hyper criticism and vitriol you must have been involved with. Suffice it to say that I feel I am the antithesis of a judging person, and the only real turn offs I've had with people in WOW are with arrogance.

In a team sports metaphor, we all cannot always be at the top of our game. Some of us are veterans, and some of us are rookies. I can't help but be a little offended by the "can you blame them" post below, which feels like some of the veterans are a little tired of coaching us rookies and want to go play for the Yankees to get that World Series ring. We keep fielding(overplaying) the same 7 or 8 ball players rather than getting a full nine man team. It was not that long ago that it was hard to get a 15-person raid together.

The only stress I've experienced in raids is some pressure from the veterans for me to be able to keep up and try to be most perfect. Mirajj explained it best as to why sometimes he sometimes enjoys "pubbie" raids more, because he is more free to make mistakes or try different things and not be judged poorly because of it. Fer chrissakes its a game! Guddammit! :) I always appreciated your patience in explaining all the in's and out's of each encounter and what to do and not do. It was very helpful for me in learning how not to be such a nub on some high level stuff.

I've had my off days where I make plenty of mistakes, and at times I can be as flakey and scatterbrained as anyone else. I hope my Lurker friends would understand, as I do when they are burned out or having a bad day. If we are honest with ourselves we have all made mistakes, and try to learn from them. I understand people getting burned out, or people wanting to 5-man first, and also the desire to get to the end. Anyway, I guess I prefer to be with the league underdogs who with good coaching, perserverance, and teamwork can still win the World Series with 1/20 the budget of the major markets.

I will miss (all) you players who are not here with us in the "bush leagues" struggling to be in the game (warts and all). We will miss your leadership, experience, your home runs, and your great fielding, your confidence, and drive. We didn't appreciate all the times you put itch powder in our jock straps, or spit snoose in our cokes, but we can take a little hazing as well. Most of all we will miss good friends, team mates, and the shared struggles to make it work. In other words, you've invested alot of effort into growing us, and I think its a shame for you to walk away from us now. Understand that for some of us, it is hard for us to re-adjust our thinking to winning the World Series without you. But, we will perservere and bring down Onyxia, raid MC, and get to BWL. Good luck with the Yankees.

[savaughn]

I have played other MMO's and have played the Mother of MMO's, Everquest.

...

The problem with WoW is its to freaking easy.  Everyone is going to eventually burn out from this game because everything has been trivialized.  There is already talk that WoW is on the edge of a precipice and just one circumstance may end this game.

...

Everyone seems to want to blame the player.  Its just not the case in WoW.  Its Blizzard fault.  They provided too easy a level curve and by the end of year everybody will have a 60 and nothing to do.
[right][snapback]84286[/snapback][/right]

You're WAY off here, SoD. Blizzard doesn't want to build an Everquest. They are building a Lineage. And they are succeeding.

Sure, Blizz could make a game that caters to only the hard core. The number of people who play it right now would be a fraction of the people who do, but a good chunk of those would hang around forever. Leveling would be hell and I sure as heck wouldn't be playing. When "playing" becomes "work"... well, I'm done at that point.

You're starting from a mistaken perspective. EQ isn't the "Mother of MMO's". It's actually small potatoes. Everquest has had less than 300,000 simultaneous players over most of its life. At its peak, it maintained 500,000. WoW passed this point within the first week of its release and it has gained at an unprecedented rate. It is still rapidly increasing its player count.

At the same time EQ had 500k players, Lineage had 3.5 million. Blizzard doesn't want to build another Everquest. Compared to WoW, EQ was a dismal failure. Blizz is OK with people leaving WoW. New players take their place.

[LochnarITB]

Loch, you should know as well as I how absurd such a thing is.  Most guilds would laugh at such a suggestion; there's no reason to take people who aren't part of their system when there are plenty of people who aren't requesting special treatment who want to go into the guild. 
[right][snapback]84198[/snapback][/right]

What is absurd is that someone as intelligent as you would accept that as the way it has to be. I stand by my statement that it feels like high school cliques. Common acceptance of the behavior is what allows it to keep going. Even large guilds can't always field a full raid and there should be allowance for members of other guilds to assist.

And don't minimize just how hard it was to make the decision to change guilds.  It was terrifying, agonizing, and painful, however much I knew I wanted it.
[right][snapback]84198[/snapback][/right]

I did not minimize it. Refresh my post a few times. Read the signs. Friends are everything to me. Friends are personal. Friendship cannot be minimized. The way we found out you were leaving, particularly the timing coinciding with our attempt at Onyxia, did far more to minimize your decision to leave. Skan, I have often disliked the way you expressed your point in chat, but I (almost) always took that point to be WoW gospel. I will miss having you active with the Lurkers. As with Flyn, I will be pleasantly surprised if you do remain active.

[LochnarITB]

First off; if you all really want me to leave I will.  It was never my intention but it sounds like you are all eager to completely sweep me out the door...
[right][snapback]84177[/snapback][/right]

You know that is not what is being said! If that were the case, there would have been a lot of shoulder shrugs and people would have gone about their business. When a main goes to another guild, that player does tend to disappear on all their alts. I stated the reasons I believe that might happen. If that doesn't happen I will be very pleasantly surprised. The Flyndar/Lochnar late night duo was always a force to be reckoned with and I would hope that isn't gone.

[Mirajj]

And here is where I attempt to back off a bit so I don't get flamed to all hell.  I love the lurkers.  I think it's a great social guild/atmosphere.  Let me say though that some people just want more?  If I was still in lurkers would you expect someone who can raid 7 days a week to actually settle for 2 if I'm lucky?  2 people WILL NOT kill the lurkers.  3 people wont.  It's a serious blow especially given the players, but just how many people is lurkers short of to even try to do raiding with a casual atmosphere.  Militis Justica does it... and by my last count there were over 130 active 60's (with some hardcore players and some casual they can field a raid 3-4 times a week)
[right][snapback]84240[/snapback][/right]

I think that this is also a crux of the problem. Most of us work, and I have to admit, I looked at IA a while back, when I was frusterated with the pace in my mid-50's. But there was no way in hell I could make even half their raid schedule for a week, with my work schedule on days. On nights, it was even worse.

This seems to be the case for most Lurkers. Even with our 2 nights a week schedule, I miss every other week, due to work. As much as I love WoW, I can't put it ahead of the job that keeps the power on and the gamebill paid. ;)

If I had the time, (and was single, as I doubt that Taakal would let me raid that much) I might have joined IA.

But I'm finding that Lurkers/CA fits me just right. The only move I've ever considered was sideways, to CA. There are a ton of great people over there, and I wish I could get to know them the way I have the Lurkers though Guild Chat.

I guess the thing is, that the Lurkers works for me. I can understand people moving on. I understood when Griz/Ab/Sommli left. I understand now when folk are leaving. This doesn't mean that I don't feel a little hurt and the typical "I guess we just aren't good enough" but I understand why they leave. I notice that there doesn't seem to be much understanding as to why most of us are upset. I do think that it's not so much that we are upset at them, personally, but at the situation.

We've worked so hard, and are so close, for a 'casual' guild. It seems like people see the land we've been sailing for, and are jumping ship so that they can swim there faster.

I understand about wanting to be "first". To figure the stuff out. But I've been told and been through several Onyxia encounters, and being told about it can't compare to actually getting in and getting your hands dirty. I'd hate to have to be the MT, and finding that damn sweet spot on the wall, while the raid is getting pounded around you.

Anyways, enough rambling...I guess what I'm trying to say is I understand why you are leaving, all of you, and I hope that you find the fun in the game again. Luckily for me, I've found it, and am happy where I am.

[Lissa]

I have played other MMO's and have played the Mother of MMO's, Everquest.  WoW is Everquest on training wheels.  It took me 3 months to get to level 51 in Everquest.  It took me 3 months to cap two characters in this game.  There was a huge departure from Everquest to WoW because people tired of the level and AA (alternative advancement) grind.  WoW offered friendly casual play to a gamer's heart delight.

And yet EQ had player abandonment going on all the time because people simply just didn't want to play a game that seemed like work.

The problem with WoW is its to freaking easy.  Everyone is going to eventually burn out from this game because everything has been trivialized.  There is already talk that WoW is on the edge of a precipice and just one circumstance may end this game.  There definitely is not enough content for how easy the game is.  I played Diablo 2 and Diablo 2: LoD for a few years and i don't foresee myself maybe even playing that amount of time in WoW. 

Would you as a game company want to make a game that pushes away most the game playing population? That's slitting your wrists if you cater to the hardcore and hardcore only.

Everyone seems to want to blame the player.  Its just not the case in WoW.  Its Blizzard fault.  They provided too easy a level curve and by the end of year everybody will have a 60 and nothing to do.  Most of the WoW crowd doesn't understand or want to 40 man raid, so what is left for the casuals.  Endless runs of UBRS, LBRS etc.

Yes and no. Yes, Blizzard is slow on getting in the end game, but no, it's not entirely their fault either. They have to cater to everyone, not just the hardcore, otherwise they lose revenue.

It is also the human factor that plays into how much someone continues with the game. You yourself mentioned that IA loses between 8 and 10 people a month. How much of that is due to burnout as I said? How much does the guild leadership push people to go into these raids and how often?

Also, I'd say you're more wrong that you realize on the number of people that would like to get into 40 man raids. Also, casual is playing once or twice during the week and a few hours on the weekend. How many people in WoW do you think really qualify as "casual"? I don't think a single person in Lurkers qualifies.

Lissa, i have been raiding for 5 months now and it really is the only thing left i enjoy in this game.  I had a couple sleepless nights in anticipation of the opening of Blackwing Lair and Blackwing Lair has proven to be some of the best boss encounter designs in any MMO i have played.  Blackwing Lair truly requires thinking outside of the box.

And not everyone finds raiding every single day fun either. Again, I point you back to your comment about how many people IA loses a month. IA have to constantly recruit to cover their loses, have you ever wondered why? Have you also ever wondered why MJ can raid constantly? It's because they don't try to raid everyday with the same people and thus build commeraderie while not forcing people to do things they don't want to. Maybe IA's lose of people has more to do with this than not.

I want a challenge and am glad that Blizzard is putting out new content that even the uberest of WoW guilds can't do.  Thats the way it should be.

There is no such thing as uberest of guilds. After running things as much as IA does with those that stick around, these instances become old hat. Think back to IA's early runs and then to more recent runs and tell me honestly that you can't sleepwalk through the raids because you've done them so many times. How many days did it take IA to finally take Onyxia for the first time and how many people did you have? If it was 5 or more and 40 people every time, I hardly call that uberest.

There is a content problem and its not the players fault.  All Blizzard had to do was slow down the levelling and make it harder to cap.  Then there would have been plenty of content and i am beginning to think we would not have threads like this one.
[right][snapback]84286[/snapback][/right]

You are correct that content isn't the player's fault, but, it is the player's fault if they push on one character over and over until they burnout. Blizzard gave you a total of 9 different ways to play this game, you've tried 3 that I know of. What if you were to sideline Tutelin, Nini, and Frozen for a while and try other classes? You might find that there's other issues to having fun than sticking with just Tutelin all the time.

[Lissa]

I think this might not be understood; I still have not begun a trial period with IA.  I posted my application to their boards after posting this on the Lounge.  Yes, I had expressed interest in joining them to some of their members but I was still primarily devoted to Lurkers.  Lest we forget that I was running Scholo on Wed. and MC on Thurs...

One other random comment:

The people are both the hardest and the easiest thing to leave.  Hard because it is a good group of people; easy because trying to deal with the many different perspectives, opinions, and interactions within Lurkers could be a huge chore.  It got to the point where I wanted to run with groups but the effort involved in putting them together would dissuade me even before I started some times.  Maybe you will look at it as the easy way out but I would rather be more of a follower at this point than trying to lead (I've never really been a leader anyway).  The only way I could do this in Lurkers was on Mon/Thurs nights and Thursdays are generally bad for me anyway.  The effort involved just to have fun on those other 5 nights was a major drag.

- mjdoom
[right][snapback]84284[/snapback][/right]

So sit back and take a break. Let other's start the suggestions for things to do. I see atleast once a night, if not more, of people saying they want to go do something. If something grabs your fancy, go for it. Heck, some of the funnest things to do sometimes is to join a random Pubbie group and just see how things go. Sometimes it's frustrating, but sometimes, it's great fun...especially if you raid something like Scholo where it's so easy now you can really screw off (Lissanna and Taha Meleed Kirtonis with a Big Iron Fishing Pole, sure, it screwed up their damage output in those raids, but it was FUN!).

[Roland]

Also, casual is playing once or twice during the week and a few hours on the weekend.  How many people in WoW do you think really qualify as "casual"?  I don't think a single person in Lurkers qualifies.

I do. That is EXACTLY my playstyle at the moment. And it has left me far in the dust in terms of GAME advancement (not just character advancement). I miss out not only on great playing time with friends (who are almost ALL way ahead of me), but also TONS of content simply because I DO NOT have the time nor the energy to devote into this game. If I try, I burn out because then it DOES feel like work, trying to get my character up in levels. I can only take a couple days at a time of this game or I burn out simply because it kills my motivation to play. I get too caught up in trying to advance that by the third or fourth day I forget about just having fun and see only how little progress I've made, and how damn far I have to go.

For someone who can MAYBE dedicate one or two days a week, if only that a MONTH, this game can be a PITA to play if you're in a guild. If you're not in a guild... Well, I'd say if you kept out of a guild, and kept your friends list completely empty, then this game would be perfect for you as a casual gamer. But, then, that kind of defeats the purpose of the game, now doesn't it?

I'm not complaining about the game, nor the players, nor anything. Just giving another perspective that no one seems to understand, probably because no one is in that situation. I work around 50 hours a week in an automotive repair shop. I'm only a parts manager, so you'd THINK I'd have solely a desk job, but I also assist the mechanics, deliver parts, and ferry customers. I also started my own business this summer (as many of you know), which also takes up some of my free time. I also have a weekly Halo 2 session every Sunday, which lasts about 6 hours (sometimes longer), so there goes almost a whole day of the week dedicated to another game. Between all this, I just don't have the time to fit WoW in on a daily schedule. Moreover, I'm too burned out at the end of the day to deal with much stress, least of all from a game. My life and my relationship take care of that plenty (my g/f is an absolute doll, but she's also one hell of a child at heart; I love this about her and wouldn't change it for the world, but sometimes it can be a bit aggravating, like being a parent with a permanent 6-year old - a blessing a lot of the time, but a curse some of the time).

So, I play WoW when I feel the itch, and drop it when I don't. And it keeps me from burning out. Sometimes I'll take a month or three off completely from WoW, just cancel my subscription, and then come back to it. Does it set me even farther behind? Yeah, but it keeps me alive in the game. I don't burnout. And it gives me an interesting perspective on the guild: even just a couple months ago, we only had a few 60's online at any given time. Just the other day, we had over a full page of 60's online - they outweighed ALL other levels online in our guild at the time. I found that interesting, given how only a couple months ago people were complaining about not having enough high-level players to coop with.

Anyway, I just had to pipe up that there is at least ONE person who qualifies as a "casual gamer", especially in the WoW sense. My life just doesn't allow 9 - 5 (that's PM to AM ;)) gaming like I used to be able to do. It's a sad loss, but not something I can change anytime soon, and not something that revolves around WoW.

Maybe it won't work for others, but I have to offer up the idea. Does ANYONE who's getting burned out on this game ever think about just dropping it for a month or two? You all talk about "paying for boredom". Well, if you're that bored, drop the game for a month. It will still be here when you get back. And if you've already capped at least one character, you won't be missing anything or falling behind. I really have to wonder how many people are getting burned out of the Lurkers, and how many are just getting burned out. And of both of them, how many lost players could have been avoided by the person simply taking a month or two off. This game doesn't HAVE to be bought on a yearly subscription. You can pay for a month at a time. It's what I do, and it ensures I never waste more than a month's worth of play (and if I play at all during a month, even if only for a couple days, to ME it was worth the money I payed, compared to the other expenses in my life).

Just my two cents. Sorry for this unexpectedly long post. All I started out saying was "I'm a casual gamer", and look what ended up? :)

[Roland]

You are absolutely correct.  I am part of the problem with Lurkers.

I couldn't even finish your post because of this one line. Quite frankly, it makes me rather sick to my stomach just to read.

I read your post about your personal problems. I silently congratulated you on your "coming out" (I hope it was a positive experience), and threw my own silent condolences and support into the mix, but crap like this coming from your mouth about how you drag everyone down just pisses me off. And I'm not pissed off at you: I'm pissed off at whatever or whoever got such a stupid idea in your head.

I can't speak for everyone, but I will say for damn sure that you are not a burden upon me, nor should you be seen as a burden upon anyone. If someone feels so strongly about you, that you are holding them back and dragging down their fun, then quite frankly I hope they quit. They have NO right to treat you in such a way, regardless of whatever conditions you have going on in your life. NO ONE should be seen as a burden upon someone else. You aren't tied into anyone. You're not married to the players or the guild. Everyone who is here is here of their own free will. They can do what they want (within reason, of course), and certainly don't need you to justify their existence. And if they feel that way... Well, I already said it: quit. Period. There's no place for such cold and shallow people in such a generally warm, friendly environment.

I'm not attacking anyone in particular. My guess is that it's just that little voice in the back of your head gnawing at you GG (we all have one). But for whatever reasons your feeling the way you do, I simply couldn't stand aside and listen to you berate yourself any longer. Be it in your mind or because of someone in the guild, it's utter BS through and through, no matter what way you slice it, and I want you to know that. You're a great person, a great player, and a great asset to the community, and you can bet on your life that whenever I think about getting to 60 to play with "the big kid group", your name is one of the first that flashes into my head that I want to play with. That was the case before you explained your life (to which I was not privvy before because I am nowhere near high-enough, nor on enough to stay current on guild events), and it's been the case ever since. If with no one else, don't ever think I see you as a burden. Ever. Because I do not, and will not, and that is because I refuse to let my fun revolve around any one person in this game, and because no one deserves to be treated so low.

Sorry for the rant, but I had to say SOMETHING. Now I'll go finish reading your post. :P

Edit:
Ok, so being a bit of a jerk is worth apologing for. That's a given. But I still stand by my statements, even if they were said in haste. :P

[Treesh]

You're not married to the players or the guild.
[right][snapback]84305[/snapback][/right]

Welllllll, he is married to one of the players, who is in the guild.... ;) :P

/end stupid comments

[Kevin]

I couldn't even finish your post because of this one line. Quite frankly, it makes me rather sick to my stomach just to read.

I read your post about your personal problems. I silently congratulated you on your "coming out" (I hope it was a positive experience), and threw my own silent condolences and support into the mix, but crap like this coming from your mouth about how you drag everyone down just pisses me off. And I'm not pissed off at you: I'm pissed off at whatever or whoever got such a stupid idea in your head.

I can't speak for everyone, but I will say for damn sure that you are not a burden upon me, nor should you be seen as a burden upon anyone. If someone feels so strongly about you, that you are holding them back and dragging down their fun, then quite frankly I hope they quit. They have NO right to treat you in such a way, regardless of whatever conditions you have going on in your life. NO ONE should be seen as a burden upon someone else. You aren't tied into anyone. You're not married to the players or the guild. Everyone who is here is here of their own free will. They can do what they want (within reason, of course), and certainly don't need you to justify their existence. And if they feel that way... Well, I already said it: quit. Period. There's no place for such cold and shallow people in such a generally warm, friendly environment.

I'm not attacking anyone in particular. My guess is that it's just that little voice in the back of your head gnawing at you GG (we all have one). But for whatever reasons your feeling the way you do, I simply couldn't stand aside and listen to you berate yourself any longer. Be it in your mind or because of someone in the guild, it's utter BS through and through, no matter what way you slice it, and I want you to know that. You're a great person, a great player, and a great asset to the community, and you can bet on your life that whenever I think about getting to 60 to play with "the big kid group", your name is one of the first that flashes into my head that I want to play with. That was the case before you explained your life (to which I was not privvy before because I am nowhere near high-enough, nor on enough to stay current on guild events), and it's been the case ever since. If with no one else, don't ever think I see you as a burden. Ever. Because I do not, and will not, and that is because I refuse to let my fun revolve around any one person in this game, and because no one deserves to be treated so low.

Sorry for the rant, but I had to say SOMETHING. Now I'll go finish reading your post. :P

Edit:
Ok, so being a bit of a jerk is worth apologing for. That's a given. But I still stand by my statements, even if they were said in haste. :P
[right][snapback]84305[/snapback][/right]

Heh, I was responding to this before I saw your edit. But the problem with lurkers is also the strength of lurkers. We try to foster a lot of play styles and we all, since we are human, want to have other play the way we want to play. I do my best to play the way others do when I'm in the right mood as do many others, but at times you just can't. But yeah, you seem to have figured out what I was saying after my openind statement so I was clear enough. :)

Thanks for your support and as I think Treesh pointed out, I am married to one of the people and I've known tal for years before this game, heck he housed me for about two weeks one summer while Treesh and I were homeless and I was wandering the country looking for a job. :) So I have some very strong connections to some of the lurkers. I've grown very fond of others through the forums and the game. Sabra, Ruvanal and NSD were all people met through these forums and that game who have all helped me in various ways, even if they don't know it at times, with the personal problems I'm suffering in life. So yeah, like I said, I at times do take the game way too personally and seriously. That can happen when it and some stupid internet forum are the only place that you can communicate without freaking out. Speaking of I'll probably need to make a post about that soon as I may be cutting back my play time a fair bit as part of treatment but that is for another thread.

[Swiss Mercenary]

All Blizzard had to do was slow down the levelling and make it harder to cap.  Then there would have been plenty of content and i am beginning to think we would not have threads like this one.

Pardon my ignorance, not playing the game, and all, but how would in increase in the amount of time = amount of enemies you have to grind through increase the content in the game?

I mean, would running /players 2 in Diablo 2( Without the experience boost, which is effectively what you have proposed) double the content in the game? Or just double the time it takes to get through it?

[Sword_of_Doom]

Pardon my ignorance, not playing the game, and all, but how would in increase in the amount of time = amount of enemies you have to grind through increase the content in the game?

I mean, would running /players 2 in Diablo 2( Without the experience boost, which is effectively what you have proposed) double the content in the game? Or just double the time it takes to get through it?
[right][snapback]84325[/snapback][/right]

Thats a good question Swiss Mercenary. Essentially, Blizzard has made levelling so easy that when you cap (level 60) there is not much for the casual player to do but run the same instances over and over again, much like D2 for Diablo runs and the D2: LoD, Baal runs. If Blizzard had made it harder to get to 60, most players would still be levelling and not worrying about the end game content. Levelling 1 to 60, as many have is experienced, is one of the best travels/journey of any MMO out there. I would dare say it is by far the best. Slowing down the levelling would not have made this game a grind it would have extended many people's love affair with a great game. But when most people have two capped characters and some as many as 5 to 6, 9 months into retail, thats a model destined to fail. When casuals reach 60 they realize there is not much they can do in their limited time but short instance runs.

Making levelling harder, in my opinion, would have given Blizzard enough time to add to the game without appearing slow and ponderous as they are looking now. Even the powergamers would not have much to complain about because they would still be doing Molten Core (40 man raid instance) and Onyxia and progressing their characters through items but at a much slower pace.

Currently right now, Blizzard has been extremely slow in comparison to their competitors at providing fresh interesting new content. That pressure would have been alleviated by my thoughts above. Everquest 2 (1/10 of the subscriber base, 400k subs. approx.) has done monthly updates as well as just announced an expansion to their game. Why does a much smaller game have greater uptime (server stability), more free content and now an announced expansion in comparison to such a large game like WoW? Everyone will have their answer to that and i am not going to try answering that but thats the picture out there. But to me there is no excuse for a company raking in approximately 20 million dollars a month having server problems 9 months into retail and lack of fresh content. Eventually customers will tire of it and leave this game.

[RTM]

I've been thinking about the recent happenings discussed in this thread and came to the shocking realization that I don't have an opinion one way or another since none of my characters are high enough to be affected by it.

I, RTM, hereby pledge to cap at least one of my characters so I can participate in end-game drama.

[Tal]

I, RTM, hereby pledge to cap at least one of my characters so I can participate in end-game drama.
[right][snapback]84355[/snapback][/right]

Nah. You'll be distracted by something shiney and forget. ;)

[Kevin]

Actually most people probably don't have 2 capped characters. I'll believe 1 capped char for most players but not 2. Sure I have 2, and if I didn't have 20 total, I could possibly have 4 capped right now but I've been playing since day 1 and in the last 4 months I've had a lot more time to play than most people.

What many don't see with WoW is that it expanded the market for players. It brought in a lot of people who had never played and MMO and never even considered any of the other MMO's. I still think that most of the player base is not hard core.

This doesn't throw that big of a wrench in your theory though since it really only pushes back the timescale some. However as you said WoW has a great journey to the cap and WoW lets you have a lot more characters that can take that journey than any other MMO. Again that appears to be just another way to slow down what you see as the death knell for the game, but it is significant as there is a new type of MMO player that can now embrace WoW that really couldn't embrace other MMO's. The alt mongers have a place to go and you know what, I and others enjoy the journey so much that I could see myself playing for 3 years just to cap 20 different alts. I don't know how many of us there are like that but since EQ did quite well with only 300,000 to 500,000 players if only 10% of the WoW pop is alt monkeys you are already looking at that many people.

WoW also seems to have a PvP game play that can keep people around all by itself as well. Sure we might lose the hardcore players who play WoW like they played older MMO's but that doesn't mean it won't keep a different breed of player for just as long. The game has probably already turned a profit so if it starts contracting Blizzard has already won. I don't know how long they want to keep it running, I would guess 3 to 5 years at a profitable level would make them happy.

And of course all they need to do with content right now is keep the hardcore players around until the expansion gets out.

That being said there is the potential for an exodus of a certain player style from this game, but I think the misconception is that this player style is the core of the player base I don't think the truly casual players are close enough to being done to leave the game because of the sudden shift in play style. I don't think the alt mongers of PvP happy folks are looking to jump ship just yet. I don't think the game is on the verge of collapse.

I do think they need more small group content (though there is still a lot of small group content that I haven't explored yet) for end game and I don't know how long BWL will hold the hard core raiders but they only need to hold them till an expansion and there is more raid content coming.

I do think they could have kept more casual players around with a meaningful crafting system. They have a crafting system that isn't too bad to a casual player for the first 40 levels of the game or so. Despite what a lot of people here think a warrior who is a blacksmith will be wearing a lot gear they make for themselves since a lot of people really don't hit the same low level instances over and over for gear. Same for leather wearer who take leatherworking. You can keep up those professions through just grabbing all the skin and ore you see during regular play as well.

Around L40 or so crafting system starts to become a more hardcore grinding affair and in some cases becomes pointless. You won't be able to make yourself imperial plate stuff at the time you want to wear it unless you focus time on getting resources. Heck most of the stuff that takes mithril is going to require you to focus time on crafting instead of crafting as you go. I've made a few of the low end high range crafting stuff that people are still using even though we are in Onyxia and Molten Core. Enchanted Thorium Helms and Whitesoul helms and some of that stuff, but those take some hefty farming of either money or items to get and I can't use mats that I get myself to provide them. There are other things that I can craft that are still upgrades over what I'm wearing but I don't want to spend the time for them when I know that time could probably be spent in a 5 man instance getting better.

I would like to make some of the Dark Iron stuff as well but that will take some serious farming since most of that takes not only Dark Iron but lava and fiery cores and such and there is a stong possibility that I, or others who might want it, will find better gear on the riads to get the mats. The crafting system also doesn't affect the world at all. Well it affects it a little. Some people are wearing the stuff that I crafted. But you can't help in server wide efforts or even small scale guild efforts to build a guild hall or a bridge to a new area or repair the walls of stormwind. Yes there is a player base that would love to do stuff like that but no MMO has successfully been able to embrace them. WoW could keep some casual players around with that, even if they are just adding 10 iron ore to the repair stockpiles and I've mentioned ways that you can keep this working so that hardcore players don't dominate it. But this is so off track it doesn't matter now. :)

The point is that while WoW has some glaring faults that may drive away certain players I think that since it has a player base that is so much more diverse that any other MMO and that so many play styles can have fun with the game that the game itself won't collapse. This of course makes guilds work a bit differently than in other MMO's. You either get a guild of people with the same play style goals. Or you get a guild that just likes to hang with the people in it and the game goals are secondary and generally players are only going to be really happy in one of those. Will a social guild be able to really do end game content and keep everyone in it pretty happy. I think so. Maybe not by themselves since social guilds will usually be smaller, but CA and Lurkers seems to be doing pretty well even if we are still getting assistance from guilds that are basically pubbies. I fully understand how that doesn't fit with everyone. It's your money play how you like. I'm here for the social, if that means I don't see any more of the end game content then I have, so be it. Being an alt monger means I'll still have a ton of fun growing up with other people's alts or the people who join the guild at a later time like Kandrathe and RTM did. Since we don't recruit people to the guild that may not last forever but it will last long enough for me and my money.

[Kevin]

I've been thinking about the recent happenings discussed in this thread and came to the shocking realization that I don't have an opinion one way or another since none of my characters are high enough to be affected by it.

I, RTM, hereby pledge to cap at least one of my characters so I can participate in end-game drama.
[right][snapback]84355[/snapback][/right]

Bah you can participate in the forum drama without a capped character or an opinion! See you arleady did. You've been quoted twice in the thread now. :)

[kandrathe]

... And secondly, because crossing my fingers and hoping that someone doesn't screw up what is really a very basic strategy isn't a "challenge".
[right][snapback]84266[/snapback][/right]

You know there are probably 29 people who think you are referring to "them".

[Pesmerga]

Bah you can participate in the forum drama without a capped character or an opinion!  See you arleady did.  You've been quoted twice in the thread now.  :)
[right][snapback]84361[/snapback][/right]

Forum Drama for everyone! ::passes out pieces of pie. because pie > cake::