Vigor vs Peparation

[Skandranon]

I could've sworn I tested this out a long time ago and it didn't work, but I just tried it again and it does. :o Was this an unintended change that happened in the patch where they fixed blink to break root like it was supposed to, or am I trippin?
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After extensive testing on my part, I've come to the conclusion that yes, Blink breaks stuns and has always broken stuns. I said it didn't in my mage guide, but I was not entirely correct. That said, I wasn't entirely incorrect, either.

We need to establish, at this point, the distinction between a "stun" and "being stunned". Being stunned is a condition whereby you can't move or activate any button. A "stun" is an attack that inflicts the stunned condition and adds a little blue swirl above the stunned target's head. Without the little blue swirl, it's not a "stun", even if it causes its target to become stunned.

Why did it seem to me that Blink doesn't break stuns? Because, of all the mobs in the game, only one actually has a "stun" attack. Many, many of them, from Defias guys in Elwynn who Snap Kick to Earth Elementals who Knockdown, have attacks that inflict the stunned condition, but which are not technically Stuns. Only the Scarlet Defender in Stratholme has a Stun, which is an exact copy of the Paladin's Hammer of Justice. (The Wracking Pains curse inflicted by the Torturers in BRD might be a second, but it's not really an "attack".)

Hence, Blink will break all Stuns - that is, all the Warrior, Rogue and Paladin attacks as well as the Scarlet Defender's attack. It won't do a damned thing to get you out of stun conditions inflicted in any other way, like 99% of the stunning monsters in the game do. No blue swirl, no blink out. So basically - Blink breaks stuns in PvP. It doesn't in PvE.

[ima_nerd]

What do you mean by "dommage"?

French equivalent of "bummer" You learned something new! :)

How is it any different? Attacking someone with low health/mana gives you just the same advantage as being significantly higher level. They basically have no chance to kill you regardless of your skill unless you suck.

When I attack someone with low hp/mana they generally pot in the first place. A low lvl with full hp/mana ≠ same level with low hp/mana. Damage, armor and stats are all different.

And that's precisely the point. I exagerated a bit in what I'll do that in response to; typically they have to really piss me off, usually repeated incidents of lame stuff. But the point remains, when people do lame stuff to me, I'll do whatever I can to do worse to them. Otherwise I try to be cool with horde, despite my friends devoloping factionist hate towards their entire group, I try to focus on individuals.

Agreed. Getting ganked multiple times by the same person in succesion really pisses me off.

[Malakar]

When I attack someone with low hp/mana they generally pot in the first place. A low lvl with full hp/mana ≠ same level with low hp/mana. Damage, armor and stats are all different.
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Well I guess it's really just a question of degrees.

[Treesh]

When I attack someone with low hp/mana they generally pot in the first place. A low lvl with full hp/mana ≠ same level with low hp/mana. Damage, armor and stats are all different.
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What if they can't pot though? What if their pots are still in cooldown? What if they used their last one in the fight just before you jumped them? You can't just assume they'll pot up right after you attack them, especially if they are down on both health and mana. The rejuv pots aren't that good. ;) You just can't tell from looking at them if they've got their pots available.

Edit: This isn't a knock on your choice to play this way. Just because I choose to not attack people when they are low on hitpoints and mana doesn't mean everyone else has to play this way too. I figure if the monsters can do it to me, why not the players? ;) I just wanted to give you something to think about. That's all.

[Tal]

Now, that is lame. I've seen a video where the guy had the full set...he must have a lot of time on his hands.
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Are you sure he wasn't wearing this set? I happened to be next to a rogue in the AH last night who was wearing the full set. I was actually very impressed with her equipment. All of it was blue (not the color - the quality). :)

[Malakar]

All of it was blue (not the color - the quality). :)
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Does she need some prozak?

[Tal]

Only the Scarlet Defender in Stratholme has a Stun, which is an exact copy of the Paladin's Hammer of Justice.  (The Wracking Pains curse inflicted by the Torturers in BRD might be a second, but it's not really an "attack".)
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One of the mobs in the Scarlet Monastery, the Scarlet Crusader IIRC, also uses the Paladin Hammer of Justice. I know this because I would HoJ them right back when they used it on me. ;)

[Tal]

Does she need some prozak?
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Probably does after that many runs on the BRS ;)

[ima_nerd]

Are you sure he wasn't wearing this set?

That is defintley a possibility. No way to tell, it was in the WoW forums about a week ago which means it's on page 33 x 10^23 :P

What if they can't pot though? What if their pots are still in cooldown? What if they used their last one in the fight just before you jumped them? You can't just assume they'll pot up right after you attack them, especially if they are down on both health and mana. The rejuv pots aren't that good.  You just can't tell from looking at them if they've got their pots available.

Meh, I personally don't care if they pot or not. I'm just saying that generally people pot after I jump them. I learned long ago it's either gank or be ganked. For instance, I was ganked (twice) by a 41 druid, 38 shaman and 37 rogue yesterday. I was lvl 38 at the time. That's a bit overkill...I still managed to take out the druid at one point when the group had spread out some. I proceeded to get owned by the other two but I felt a little better. I VERY rarely kill someone more than once. Usually only when they do it to me.

[Malakar]

I learned long ago it's either gank or be ganked.
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More like gank and be ganked. If you play on a PvP server you're going to be ganked a lot regardless of whether you choose to return the favor.

I love a good PvP fight. The thing that bothers me about PvP servers, though, is that the way the game's designed encourages "gank tactics". Winning in PvP is based highly on numbers, level, and situation; only if those are fair then skill plays a significant role. It doesn't bother me when I lose a fight or get ganked, it bothers me that good fights are so rare. Why should I play a PvP server when I can play a PvE and duel people? Dueling at least encourages fair fights. Sure, I can duel on PvP servers, but why put up with being ganked frequenly if it gives me no added benefits? As for group PvP, most group PvP I've run into has been very lopsided. Raids? Too laggy and one person doesn't make a difference.

As for the "PvP when you want it" argument, I find PvP servers discourage this more than encourage it, for people like me. I'd much rather be able to find people who want to fight than enforce fighting on people who just want to grind/quest at the time. Where am I supposed to find people who want to fight? Nobody goes to the arena.

Another thing I dislike about WoW PvP is it's Horde vs Alliance. Not only does this encourage blind factionist hate which I despise, it takes away my freedom of choice. Alliance group camping Gath'llzog trying to take first hit when you were there first and cleared the way up? Too bad. They get first hit and kill it, but one of their members wasn't there so they're gonna do it again? Too bad. Alliance talking smack? Too bad. Horde come up to you, make sure you can see him, wait till you're done fighting a mob and regen, and then fight you fairly? Too bad, you can't communicate with him or group with him. All of this crap just to maintain the Warcraft factions.

[ima_nerd]

More like gank and be ganked.

I was thinking more along the lines of when I see someone, I generally kill them because by the time they rez, I've moved along so I'm safe from that person. For awhile at least.

enforce fighting on people who just want to grind/quest at the time.

I know this is annoyingly overused but I gotta say it. They chose a PvP server, they need to get over it : /

Too bad, you can't communicate with him

You can't directly communicate, but give him a little /wave or a /bow and 85% of the time, he'll return it and leave you alone. That's my experience. Personally, I NEVER attack someone that has emoted me politely. If they /spit or /rude...it's on :)

[Professor Frink]

Another thing I dislike about WoW PvP is it's Horde vs Alliance. Not only does this encourage blind factionist hate which I despise, it takes away my freedom of choice. [...] All of this crap just to maintain the Warcraft factions.
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It's only blind factionist hate if you have no compassion at all for the NPCs. Why should the Alliance continue to spend its resources protecting you, training you, and giving you valuable quests if you're so willing to let any member of the Horde who isn't a personal threat to you or someone you know get away with whatever they like? I'm all for games that allow you to play free-form to the point of disaster (and any sort of sane reaction by the NPCs to such treason would be disastrous to your character), but Blizzard seems to like a bit more hand-holding than that.

Perhaps the game should allow you to play as a neutral, where nobody's automatically hostile to you, but you can't do any major-faction specific quests or use most of the non-shop factioned NPCs.

-- frink

[Quark]

Posting here to correct myself: I had previously played the game of Mathcraft, stating why Vigor might not be helpful most of the time. I was wrong.

At level 60 I still was indecisive about what talent to get. My final thought was "well, going 30 points into a tree without going 31 seems like a waste ... let's try it out." I haven't respeced at all, so a bad choice wouldn't cost me much.

Previously I said that Vigor would probably only help when things go wrong - a miss means the extra 10 energy could be used for something. But battles have gotten longer since then (the important battles, anyway), and my Mathcraft skills forgot one talent: Relentless Strikes. Relentless Strikes has been very useful, it gives a 20% chance per combo point of restoring 25 energy after a finisher. 5 points = 25 energy :)

The true mathcraft, then, has been working like this for me:
I start with 110 Energy. Open with an Ambush, that gives me 50. At this point I'm mostly using Sinister Strike, so I'm rotating between 10, 30, 50. When I get 5 combo points, I hit Eviscerate at 50 energy. That leaves 15 energy + 25 for Relentless Strikes = 40. At 40, you're already ready for another SS :)


While I'm here, I'd also like to point out what I've seen as a failure by Rogues on the official forums. They constantly debate Mace/Sword vs Dagger, always fighting over using Sinister Strike with a high damage range, slow weapon, or using Dagger with Ambush/Backstab and the talents to help it out.

Each of them rely on the Dagger build having Improved Backstab and Seal Fate. As I've come to find out, this is not necessary at all. First off, it prevents you from getting Improved Sap (which I've mentioned before). Second off, a suprise for the forum goers, Seal Fate works with Sinister Strike. Every mathcraft post I've seen compares a base Sinister Strike with an Improved Backstab/Seal Fate's Backstab. Not one that I've seen has done the math for a Seal Fate Sinister Strike. Sure, you don't get Seal Fate combo points as often. But you do get the guaranteed combo points from Sinister Strike more often.

If anyone has one of the math comparisons of SS vs BS, I'd like to see it to see if we can add in a Seal Fate SS for comparison. I know it's been working pretty well for me.

[playingtokrush]

Posting here to correct myself: I had previously played the game of Mathcraft, stating why Vigor might not be helpful most of the time.  I was wrong.

At level 60 I still was indecisive about what talent to get.  My final thought was "well, going 30 points into a tree without going 31 seems like a waste ... let's try it out."  I haven't respeced at all, so a bad choice wouldn't cost me much.

Previously I said that Vigor would probably only help when things go wrong - a miss means the extra 10 energy could be used for something.  But battles have gotten longer since then (the important battles, anyway), and my Mathcraft skills forgot one talent: Relentless Strikes.  Relentless Strikes has been very useful, it gives a 20% chance per combo point of restoring 25 energy after a finisher.  5 points = 25 energy :)

The true mathcraft, then, has been working like this for me:
I start with 110 Energy.  Open with an Ambush, that gives me 50.  At this point I'm mostly using Sinister Strike, so I'm rotating between 10, 30, 50.  When I get 5 combo points, I hit Eviscerate at 50 energy.  That leaves 15 energy + 25 for Relentless Strikes = 40.  At 40, you're already ready for another SS :)

The way I see it, the longer the battle, the less worthwhile Vigor is.