The Rogue's Gallery

[Tal]

Sword or dagger, they just don't seem to hit enough.  Has anyone else experienced this?  The few times I add poison to my off-hand anymore, it's for Mind Numbing (casters) or Crippling (runners) that only occassionally help me out.
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I've noticed this and attributed it to the off hand's greater chance to miss/be dodged or parried.

[Guest]

I have had the opposite with swords. I use a slow sword in the main hand and fast sword in the off hand. I never made a scientific review of my poison use, but it seems lmy off hand uses poison faster than the main hand. I attributed this to the faster weapon hitting more.

[Concillian]

I want to add a build that I have not seen here much.

It is based strongly on the Osiris build from the worldofwar.net forums. It is EXTREMELY flexible with excellent potential for use in PvP, PvE or in group instance play

Sword/mace in main hand for SS damage
dagger in off-hand for procs

Primary skills are
Cold Blood (21 points in Assassination)
Hemorrhage (26 points in Subtlety tree... Instance play for improved aggro, allows you to help your tank do more damage and create more aggro, also the cheapest way to add combo points )
Preparation (On the way to Hem, good for PvP, solo and PvE for more uses of Cold Blood and Vanish)
Improved Cheap Shot (on the way to Hem. If you ever use this for an opener, it's like having a point in Vigor. 2 points here gives the opportunity for a crazy combo string: CS + SS + wait for energy while stunned + gouge + Cold Blood + Eviscerate = 5 combo point guaranteed crit Eviscerate with no opening for the mob to attack at all.)
Improved Sap (Instance play)
Improved Rupture (Instance play DoT that ignores defense for less burst damage... better aggro control)
Relentless, Ruthlessness and Initiative allows for better efficiency with energy and combo points.
With the leftover 4 points I got Improved SS (pretty much a must for rogues) and 2 points in improved gouge to allow me to regen more energy than I use for gouge, which essentially gives me a free combo point.

So I am currently going for 26 subtle / 4 combat / 21 assassination as final numbers.

Against mobs you have a few different strategies:
In early play this was my primary method:
ranged weapon + SS + Gouge
Run away until gouge wears off, then quick turn with mouse (right click and slide left or right... way faster than keyboard.)
ranged weapon + SS + SS + Gouge
wait for energy, then Eviscerate

You will take very little damage this way, and have very little downtime. Obviously this only works 1 on 1, but at low levels you can SOLO ELITES of approximately equal level this way. For non-elites, equal levels are usually dead at eviscerate, and you have only a few seconds of exposure to attack provided the gouges hit. If they don't you fall back on SS until you can gouge again. Usually you can run right to the next (equal level) non-elite without waiting for health at all.

I found Ambush and backstab just did NOT cut it for soloing elites. I didn't even buy ambush rank 1 or backstab rank 2 on my current character. The energy cost is WAY too high and you end up exposed for a LOT more time because you're always waiting for energy. I ended up dead before the elite. But by running instead of positioning behind the mob, you have the time to regen ALL your energy AND for gouge to be ready again when you're back in melee range.

I ditched dagger in the main hand pretty early on, primarly because a good mace can be had for about half the price of a good dagger on my server. Maces usually give higher overall damage with SS because they are slower and have higher absolute damage, which SS builds on. I had 100+ crit SSs by the mid-teens. Before level 20, you don't even use eviscerate, because SS does more damage, and if you miss, you don't lose the energy. Plus by the time you get to eviscerate, the mob is usually dead.

This will also skill up a new ranged attack VERY quickly.

Running away lets your energy completely regen while the mob is closing on you again. It draws lots of odd attention to you when you do this and bring a mob into town while skilling up an new weapon and are barely damaging them. Sit there on the road gouging and shooting a gun and running back and forth and people look at you funny.

Later:
Stealth
CS + SS + wait for energy + gouge
run away, quick turn, ranged attack, then eviscerate when close enough.

This gets you a 5 point eviscerate before a mob attacks you, provided the CS and gouge lands.

Then go back to SS/gouge/run ranged/SS/SS/Gouge/run/ranged/eviscerate

Most useful poisons I've found are crippling and instant (before you get crippling). Mind numbing looks to have has usefulness, but in limited situations, haven't used it myself.

In instances you are using:
Improved Sap when needed so you can Sap 2 targets or Sap 1 and CS another.
Then early on your primary attacks are gouge (so you don't do too much damage), SS, and Rupture. Later use Hem so your tank has a bonus to his damage and aggro. I use rupture for a couple reasons:
1) With increased armor on elites it will often do more total damage than Eviscerate.
2) Rupture has same DoT for any number of combo points, just reduced time. Early on when you have a hard time building 5 combo points quickly, you can Rupture with only 2 or three CP and be getting some significant damage in.

PvP you are stunning with a giant combo:
CS + SS + wait + Gouge + CB + Eviscerate + Blind + Vanish + wait and Prep + CS + gouge + CB + Eviscerate + blind + vanish + wait + CS + Gouge + Eviscerate

Diminishing returns rears its head, and that second CS will stun for only a couple seconds, and the third CS will barely stun, but it gives you two (maybe three with initiative) combo points. Add gouge and perhaps a combo point from Relentless strikes on the last Eviscerate and you may already have 5 for your third Eviscerate.

This whole string can't be used solo, since Vanish will reset mobs that don't have any aggro on another target. It could be used in a group (instance), but two quick crit Eviscerates will surely get aggro on you. Using Expose armor on the first will help your tank gain aggro, and you can use Cold Blood on your first SS, since expose armor doesn't crit, then use the second one after using prep for eviscerate later when your tank has gained aggro, and you have another chance to feint.

you don't have quite the burst DPS of an ambush point layout, but you are incredibly versatile. You are able to solo pretty heavy hitting mobs, as you are less prone to getting hit. Your progress is probably a little slower overall than a huge DPS rogue, but I like this build over the traditional, near warrior build. There is a lot more strategy involved and you have a lot of options at your disposal. Mostly I like being able to solo elites of my level without too much danger AND being able to be wanted in a party because of the usefulness against Elites and party friendly skills like Improved Sap and Hemhorrage. You also always have a trick up your sleeve with Preparation, you can use whatever useful skill is needed twice in a row (feint, evade, Cold Blood, blind, vanish, etc...)

For those using backstab, consider this:
Backstab is 60 energy for 150% weapon damage (of a dagger)
SS with Improved SS is 40 energy for 100% weapon damage + a little bit (of a mace or sword that has higher base damage)

If you figure out your overall damage, you are doing MORE damage for the same energy with SS without a crit. The only thing that gets you more damage from backstab is the 30% extra crit chance. You're relying on probability being in your favor. SS is more consistent and almost the same damage over time. You're trading slightly less damage for the ability to better regulate that damage (by having more opportunities to choose when to use it and when to not, and by a larger percentage of your damage coming from base attack rather than random crits.)

Arguments for backstab become more compelling with Seal Fate, as you're getting 2 combo points almost as often as you get one. But again you're staking your livelihood on the random number generator. I guess it's like DiabloII, where I prefered a lower average damage weapon with a tight damage range over a slightly higher damage weapon with a gigantic dmage range. You can plan your fights better with more consistent damage output. It's bad enough when you get a string of misses.

[Concillian]

There are 2 major divisions. and 2 semimajor subdivisions.

First you have daggers vs sword/mace.
Dagger rogues love sneak attacks.
Sword/mace  users depend more on SS. The sword/mace builds need a slow main hand weapon.
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I think it comes down to the opener. A sword/mace build can be just as sneaky, but not usually before 26 (when you get Cheap Shot)

With daggers you can use Ambush and Backstab. That is the ONLY advantage to daggers.
With Swords/Maces you're opening with Garrotte (who uses Garrotte? I breaks the excellent Gouge) or Cheap Shot, and, to me, Cheap Shot is the winner by a landslide. Especially with 2 in Improved CS, which drops it to only 40 energy. 2 (sometimes 3 with Initiative) combo points for 40 energy? What's not to love about that?

I don't see a compelling reason for using Ambush really, as the stuns you can string together with CS + gouge will generate as much or more damage with less risk than Ambush.

For example, open with Improved CS (40 energy) then SS (40 energy) you will regen 40 energy by the time CS wears off, leaving you at 60. Gouge with 2 in Improved gouge and you're back up to at least 60 again and have four or 5 combo points on the target. Eviscerate and you've easily surpassed 250% weapon damage, though probably not a crit 250%.

Ambush leaves you at an opener + gouge and then what? You can't get behind for a backstab, not enough energy unless you were getting beat on for a few seconds before you gouged. You have to choose if you want a finisher early or if you want to get a full 5 combo points while the mob beats on you. Ambush and backstab simply cost too much energy for me to take them seriously. Unless you're getting combo points with Seal fate. If ambush were 2 CP or 40 energy it would be a toss up, but at 60 energy and only one CP, Ambush really isn't that great as I see it. Either that or CS is overpowered with the ability to be 40 energy and 2 combo points.

Seal fate is the only reason I see for going daggers, as you live and die by your crits... and more attacks = more crits. It also makes the energy for backstab and ambush more palletable as you're getting 2 combo points like half the time. For anything else, daggers seem less compelling to me, unless you are a RP fiend who needs to be backstabbing.

[Malakar]

In my party, I would do much less damage overall if I was SS oriented.
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Actually, if you use SS with swords, it's roughly equal damage overall to Backstab. It also has the advantage of being easier to use, and builds up a 5 point combo more quickly. (The quicker 5 point combo Eviscerate was taken into consideration in damage comparisons.)

Backstab does remain the higher DPS option with daggers (~22-33% higher depending on rank breakpoints), but again it takes longer to build up combo points and of course draws more aggro.

[Concillian]

I haven't gotten used to using Gouge or Garrote at all.  In fact, it took me about 10 levels extra to get some of those to higher ranks because I simply saw no need.  Am I missing out on Gouge?  Keep in mind that at least 80% of the time I'm in a group with my friend's hunter and others, and I have a very group-based build.

Gouge is incredibly useful, but realistically it has all it's use at Rank 1. The usefulness of gouge is:
1) 4 second stun if target not attacked (more with improved gouge). Great solo, you can run away a bit, and have a completely full energy bar after your gouge as the mob runs back up to you. For a backstab spec, this allows you to get into place when solo.

2) Breaks casting. If kick is not ready, or misses, gouge. Even in a group this is important, as spellcasters are pretty weak when they aren't casting. If you give them a second or two before gouge, they just completely wasted that time. It also allows you to interrupt a spell that you want to interrupt, but wait for them to cast the school you want to silence for 5 seconds before using your kick.

3) gives a combo point with almost no damage. Yes this is a bonus in a group. Aggro control. Same cost as SS, and you gain a CP with no damage done.

You aren't missing much with Garrotte, but against elites, the DoT can be nice. Not affected by armor, so damage can be pretty high relative to physical attacks. Solo Garrotte is almost useless because most rely on gouge for some defense and Garrotte breaks gouge. I rarely use Garrotte.

Group oriented Rogues would be better served going Backstab/Ambush than SS with swords, if you have the right group members.  Nearly always having a Hunter's bear with me has been a great help, as I'm backstabbing throughout the entire fight.  In my party, I would do much less damage overall if I was SS oriented.

I disagree, and feel the sword/mace in the main hand is more flexible, but to each his own, I guess. I think you have better aggro control, gain combo points faster, and more group focused talents with a mace/sword build. The right dagger build is okay for groups though, as long as you don't go very deep in the Combat tree. It's a much tougher build though. You want to get Seal Fate, and Improved Backstab and Improved Ambush, but you can't get all three without sacrificing either MoD or Camo, which are both pretty key in a group. The other group skill you almost have to forego is Improved Sap, which can be the difference between you being added to the group or not.

As I said, it's just less flexible, and you have to forego some of the better group talents or gimp your solo play, while a good sword/mace, is very good at both instances and solo.

I also just love to string together the cool stun combos that you can using improved Cheap Shot and low energy combo point attacks.

[Occhidiangela]

[quote=Occhidiangela,Dec 3 2004, 04:16 PM]

Rogues: We really are the finest adventurers in the World of Warcraft. :D

Occhi
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FWIW: I read an interesting post over at Blizz's official forums on Rogue building. I won't say all the follow on discussion was worthy, but some comments were of interest to me. Comments of those who have played rogues at higher levels are solicited.

Not sure how long this URL will last

Edit: Yojack links to earlier discussions of this build: http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=...&start=79007739

Edit: [QUOTE] Assassination-Cheapshot Build (Per suggestion, thanks Ghostiger.)

Assassination Talents (23 points)

Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

Relentless Strikes - 1/1 point
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 30%.

Improved Instant Poison - 5/5 points
Increases the chance to apply Instant Poison to your target by 10%.

Cold Blood - 1/1 point
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.

Combat Talents (2 points)

Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5 Energy.

Subtlety Talents (26 points)

Master of Deception - 5/5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. More effective than Master of Deception (Rank 4)

Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.

Elusiveness - 4/5 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Evasion, Vanish, and Blind abilities by 1 minute.

Initiative - 5/5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.

Ghostly Strike - 1/1 point
A strike that deals 125% weapon damage and increases your chance to dodge by 15% for 7 seconds. Awards 1 combo point.

Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Adds a 90% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.

Improved Cheap Shot - 1/2 point
Reduces the Energy cost of your Cheap Shot ability by 10.

Preparation - 1/1 point
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.

Hemorrhage - 1/1 point
An instant strike that damages the opponent and causes the target to hermorrhage, increasing any Physical damage dealt to the target by up to 3. Lasts 30 charges or 15 seconds. Awards 1 combo point.

Open with imp cheapshot -50e 2 cp's 3 cp's 75% of time with initiative
Hemmorhage -35e 1 cp
Gouge -45e 1cp

Wait 2 secs for energy...

At this point you have 4-5 cp's and have enough energy to cb evis (if you have 5cp's) before your prey EVEN WAKES UP. He has been totally locked down so far. On to the rest of the pwnage...

Blind (they usually dont get far since they are usually slowed from crippling poison although they sometimes run into a mob which is even funnier. Now you are a rogue with a pet haha)
Vanish (if blind failed you can then just sneak away unscathed depends on how much life opponent has left)
Cheapshot again after a few secs to get engen full
Hemmorhage
Gouge
Prep
(A this point most cloth wearers are so close to death I dont even have to use prep btw.)
5 point evis again! (75% of time)

For the big boys vanish another time cheapshot and just duke out there remaining sliver of life or blind em again heheh. Havent even used thistle or evasivness yet but those are available too.

(Yojack) I have practiced with this setup and the energy use works out perfect, which is the problem I see with too many other builds. Low energy will have you sitting there mashing buttons hoping that you swing but meanwhile you are being feared or rooted, or bashed to hell.

Arguements can be made. What about seal fate? What about combat?

Hey thats what makes the rogue a special class is that Blizz made a really fun character to spec in different ways and the other builds that I have seen are tempting and fun to play as well. I am just saying, if a balanced rogue who excels in PVP and is great for instance runs and can solo well and can pretty much ONWZ JOOO (sorry im tired) and solo same level elites and duel 1vs1 incredibly well against all classes sounds like the rogue you want........then have fun using the Yojack Build (trademark,copyright,all rights reserved 2004
[/QUOTE]

Edited: Name of build made more generic. My thanks to the posters who brought the genisis of this family of builds to my attention. Occhi

[Concillian]

That is basically the build I have argued in this thread.

Changes I made were:
Also I only put 1 point in Improved instant poison (to get a full 20 points so I could choose cold blood) and opted for 2 points in Murder. Poison is kind of nice, but your bread and butter is the opener. It SUCKS to miss a cheap shot. Not only do you lose the stun, but two cheap combo points. I only had 21 points in assassination.


In Subtlety, I opted for Improved Rupture and 2 points in Improved cheap shot.
Rupture is good for the very high level elites that have insane defense and are reducing damage significantly. Rupture supposedly ignores defense and does full damage (I have not tested).

Once I get cheap shot I rarely open with anything else, and 10 more energy is huge when chaining combos. Which is why I opted for the extra point there. You can make due with only one though.

I take the extra points from Elusiveness in his template.

I think that type of build (Hemorrhage and prep in subtlety and Cold Blood in Assassination) is the most flexible of all builds giving great options for PvP, PvE or instance groups. As I said in one of my comments, I originally saw this from Osiris at worldofwar.net. His comments during the closed beta were that that kind of build was the only one where he could solo lvl 58 elites.

[Occhidiangela]

That is basically the build I have argued in this thread.

Changes I made were:
Also I only put 1 point in Improved instant poison (to get a full 20 points so I could choose cold blood) and opted for 2 points in Murder. Poison is kind of nice, but your bread and butter is the opener.  It SUCKS to miss a cheap shot.  Not only do you lose the stun, but two cheap combo points. I only had 21 points in assassination.
In Subtlety, I opted for Improved Rupture and 2 points in Improved cheap shot. 
Rupture is good for the very high level elites that have insane defense and are reducing damage significantly.  Rupture supposedly ignores defense and does full damage (I have not tested).

Once I get cheap shot I rarely open with anything else, and 10 more energy is huge when chaining combos.  Which is why I opted for the extra point there.  You can make due with only one though.

I take the extra points from Elusiveness in his template.

I think that type of build (Hemorrhage and prep in subtlety and Cold Blood in Assassination) is the most flexible of all builds giving great options for PvP, PvE or instance groups.  As I said in one of my comments, I originally saw this from Osiris at worldofwar.net.  His comments during the closed beta were that that kind of build was the only one where he could solo lvl 58 elites.
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What appealed to me most in his write up, and yours, was the underlying theme that a Rogue is not a warrior, but rather a damage dealer of a different sort, and that the build is suited for PvP, PvE, solo and group, though not necessarily optimal for group PvP fights. I am a complete novice at aggro management, so may be missing the boat completely on that.

What also appeals to me, taste wise, is the Elusiveness points to enable a considerable "trying not to be seen" approach. Purely taste driven, due to baggage in my past over how I tended to play AD & D thieves and assassins.

"Where was we? We was sneaking, Precious!"

Thanks again. :)

Occhi

[Dezz]

Hi all, this is Dezz of the Basin (and Lurker since D1 days) putting in my 2 cents. :)

The build Occhi posted above looks awesome for an endgame build, but most of the "burst dps" and "stunlock" builds out there rely on 21 or 31 point talent rewards, and may be of marginal benefit until one nears 50. Since talent respecs are available, I decided to focus on combat talents to ease the PvE time to 60, then respec for PvP play.

Blackavar is 33 now and having fun. I currently have talents spent as follows:

Combat Mastery
Improved Sinister Strike Rank 2
Lightning Reflexes Rank 5
Deflection Rank 5
Precision Rank 4
Combat Total: 16

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate Rank 3
Malice Rank 5
Assassination Total: 8

With around a 35% chance to dodge or parry I don't get hit much, and generally finish fights v. even cons at around 85% health...just enough time to loot, skin and move on to the next fight. I actually have enjoyed Garotte and Rupture, especially since Rupture dps doesn't change with number of combo points. Fast weaps, 2 bleeds, poisons, and procs make for a lot of numbers spinning over that baddie's head.

With a background as a tank in other MMO's, I like the idea of being able to go toe to toe with lots of creatures. "Play a tank then!" you say? I like being invisible, too. :) That said, I got to thinking about a viable talent allocation that would build on my current points, be fun to play, and suprise (and maybe scare) people. With that, I bring you "House of Flying Daggers":

Combat Mastery
Lightning Reflexes Rank 5
Deflection Rank 5
Precision Rank 5
Dagger Specialization Rank 5
Dual Wield Specialization Rank 5
Blade Flurry Rank 1
Combat Total: 26

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate Rank 3
Malice Rank 5
Ruthlessness Rank 3
Improved Slice and Dice Rank 3
Relentless Strikes Rank 1
Vile Poisons Rank 5
Improved Deadly Poison Rank 5
Assassination Total: 25

Total
Total Points Spent: 51
Level Required: 60

Would be pretty simple really. Using 2 daggers around 1.5 delay and Deadly Poison, Cheap Shot-->Slice & Dice-->Blade Flurry. That would equal 15 seconds of 50% haste, swinging around twice per second. Chances are excellent that all 5 possible applications of Deadly poison would be complete in the first 6 seconds, equaling around 50 additional dps. Hang on and enjoy the ginsu ride. :shuriken:

This build is mainly a goof, but hey...I like to be different. With cheap respecs it could be fun to try for a while, would give you a better chance in cases where you did not have the initiative, and might even freak some warrior or pally out who thought you'd be an easy fight. :lol:

[Occhidiangela]

Hi all, this is Dezz of the Basin (and Lurker since D1 days) putting in my 2 cents.  :)

  The build Occhi posted above looks awesome for an endgame build, but most of the "burst dps" and "stunlock" builds out there rely on 21 or 31 point talent rewards, and may be of marginal benefit until one nears 50.  Since talent respecs are available, I decided to focus on combat talents to ease the PvE time to 60, then respec for PvP play.

EDIT: Correction

Just to make sure there is not confusion, that build is Yojack's input to the BNET forums Rogue discussion. He had initially posted on another board, though I am finding out that any number of others probably created the build's framework during the beta. I am merely a messenger. Concillian points it out as being close to Osiris' build from CB, if I read that correctly. (Note: Concillian, if I misunderstood you, please set me straight.)

Your comment in re "it is based on a build rounding out in the 50's" rings true. A suggested build order . . .

First, ghost strike + evasion = 7 secs of Godmode (90%+ dodge chance). Use prep and it is 14 secs =)

2 ss
5 mod
5 malice
3 evis
Then finish assassination up to cold blood, getting leathality to 5 then ruthlessness and relentless strike, then imp instant poison 3, then cold blood.

Then finish subtlty up to prep asap so:
5 camo
5 init
3 imp sap
etc....

In post 107, further comments:

I obviously haven't suffered too much getting to level 26 without cheapshot ;) But now I have it woot! To be honest, every build works at levels below 30. The mobs just arent that tough and the most important thing is how good your weapons are at the early levels. I can level with NO talents as long as my weapons were decent, up to about lvl 35.

As a card carrying Variant Scum, this comment leaves me wondering how item dependent this build is at early levels. The definition of "decent" items varies from player to player, and I suspect that the general Blizz crowd tends to view neccessity/sufficiency of certain items differently that I do. I will quote KingOfPain and say "items are for wimps!" :D

  Blackavar is 33 now and having fun.  I currently have talents spent as follows:

With around a 35% chance to dodge or parry I don't get hit much, and generally finish fights v. even cons at around 85% health...just enough time to loot, skin and move on to the next fight.  I actually have enjoyed Garotte and Rupture, especially since Rupture dps doesn't change with number of combo points.  Fast weaps, 2 bleeds, poisons, and procs make for a lot of numbers spinning over that baddie's head.

  With a background as a tank in other MMO's,  I like the idea of being able to go toe to toe with lots of creatures.  "Play a tank then!" you say?  I like being invisible, too.  :)  That said, I got to thinking about a viable talent allocation that would build on my current points, be fun to play, and suprise (and maybe scare) people.  With that, I bring you "House of Flying Daggers":

Would be pretty simple really.  Using 2 daggers around 1.5 delay and Deadly Poison, Cheap Shot-->Slice & Dice-->Blade Flurry.  That would equal 15 seconds of 50% haste, swinging around twice per second.  Chances are excellent that all 5 possible applications of Deadly poison would be complete in the first 6 seconds, equaling around 50 additional dps.  Hang on and enjoy the ginsu ride.  :shuriken:

  This build is mainly a goof, but hey...I like to be different.  With cheap respecs it could be fun to try for a while, would give you a better chance in cases where you did not have the initiative, and might even freak some warrior or pally out who thought you'd be an easy fight.  :lol:
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Thanks for that, it looks fun, and I love variety!

This thread's entire aim is to provide fodder for me to act as editor for a Rogue Guide here at the Lounge. I promise to any and all contributors that credit and attribution shall be up front and open! The idea is to have a first class strat document available.

Occhi

[Concillian]

Concillian points it out as being close to Osiris' build from CB, if I read that correctly.  (Note:  Concillian, if I misunderstood you, please set me straight.)

Correct. Osiris documented it here as his PvP build:
http://rogue.worldofwar.net/modules.php?op...artid=86&page=3

But lately in the forums has said that he has amended it to include Hemorrhage.

You can see several builds he outlined there. He basically kept respeccing rogues looking at all the possible builds.

His guide is pretty extensive, and provides a lot of good information. His forum contributions in the rogue forum there are excellent and pointed towards participation in capped level instances and high level PvP.

[Malakar]

The build you've shown is very similar to the one I chose. I originally chose mine to specialize in Ambush. However the Cheap Shot stunning would seem to be more useful against casters that can root/snare/dot me. So I played around a bit with the talents, and came up with a hybrid, so you can use either tactic depending on the situation.

It's essentially the same allocation as the one you listed, so I'm not going to list it all over again. The differences are:

Sacrifice 5 points in Elusiveness/Ghostly Strike for 5 points in Opportunity.

Sacrifice 3 points in Improved Sap for 3 points in Improved Ambush.


Optional:

Sacrifice 1 point in Improved Instant Poison for one additional point in Improved Cheap Shot.

Sacrifice 2 more points in Improved Instant Poison for 2 points in Murder.



Here's the reasoning. Elusiveness/Ghostly Strike are not bad, but not that great. You're going to have Preparation for quick double skill use, so Elusiveness is not that critical. Ghostly Strike is good, but if you need dodge, you can use Evasion. The skills are a reasonable sacrifice to get the 5 points necessary for Opportunity to unlock Improved Ambush.

Improved Sap is a great skill for PvE. But I'll argue that you won't be gimped without it. In most solo'ing you won't need to use it unless you want to do things you wouldn't normally be able to do. In most groups, you'll have someone else to help with the 'sap' abilities, or won't need to sap more than one with a strong group and good pulls. Also if you must have it, you can take one more point from Improved Instant Poisons and one point from Improved Cheap Shot to get a 60% chance to regain stealth which is pretty decent.

Improved Instant Poison is a good skill, but I think I'd rather have a 40 energy Cheap Shot than 2% higher chance to apply poisons.

Again, Improved Instant Poison is good, but I'd personally rather have a 5% higher chance to hit for my key skills.


Now to explain the alternate PvP tactic when you decide you don't really need stun.

Obviously you start in stealth. Your 75%+ movement speed will go to about 110% with Sprint if you need to catch up to your target a bit, the cooldown of which will be refreshed with Preparation if you need to run. Once you're on your target, start it off with an Ambush. Gauge, Vanish, and Ambush again. Depending on how many combo points you got from initiative, use Sinister Strike's to get it up to 5 for a Cold Blood Eviscerate. Hit Preparation and Gauge/Vanish/Ambush again. Use Sinister Strikes to get your CP's up to 5 and CB/Evis again.

So with this you get off 3 Ambushes, which have 20% extra weapon damage bonus, 45% chance to crit, and 30% extra crit damage. Very high burst DPS to kill someone quickly when you don't need stun.


BTW, I didn't come up with the original Ambush spec. I found it posted it in the Thottbot Rogue Talents comments.

[Concillian]

Elusiveness/Ghostly Strike are not bad, but not that great. You're going to have Preparation for quick double skill use, so Elusiveness is not that critical. Ghostly Strike is good, but if you need dodge, you can use Evasion.

Ghostly strike is mostly useful for a mace/sword wielder. 125% of dagger damage is weak. 125% of mace damage is much better. Just like SS, this skill is better with high BASE damage weapon. So if you use daggers it makes total sense to skip this skill.

The additional value of GS is that a 10 second cooldown makes it available for use once per fight for a large dodge increase to keep from taking damage. Evasion has a MUCH MUCH longer cooldown, and is really only situational.

Improved Sap is a great skill for PvE. But I'll argue that you won't be gimped without it. In most solo'ing you won't need to use it unless you want to do things you wouldn't normally be able to do.

Umm, yeah. Improved sap enables things you wouldn't normally be able to do. Like take on a linked group of three ~equal level elites solo:
Sap one, return to stealth, sap two, kill third, run, rest and start over.
If you hit the 10% not returning to stealth, and two go aggro you run until the mobs hith their leash and reset.

In most groups, you'll have someone else to help with the 'sap' abilities, or won't need to sap more than one with a strong group and good pulls.

I think you misunderstand the primary use in groups. You normally don't want to sap more than one target at a time, Improved Sap just lets the pull happen in a MUCH more controlled way because you can sap without pulling aggro on you and being beat up right away. It's not so much the multiple sap opportunity, it's the CC without being a mana suck for your healer. Rogue saps, puller pulls, mage poly's, tank tanks, everyone is happy.

If you sap without improved sap, you start the encounter in a state of semi-chaos already. Groups will quickly identify this, and sometimes will rather you not sap at all than start each encounter with someone having to pull aggro off a leather wearer in melee range of the mobs.

Improved Instant Poison is a good skill, but I think I'd rather have a 40 energy Cheap Shot than 2% higher chance to apply poisons.

Again, Improved Instant Poison is good, but I'd personally rather have a 5% higher chance to hit for my key skills.

absolutely agree, especially on the murder tradeoff. Openers hitting are perhaps more important than anything else for a rogue. 6% to hit on the opener vs 4% extra chance to proc poison? No brainer.

[Guest]

PLEASE DONT say "Yojack".

That egotistical mouth took an obvious build that others tried before him and put his name on it.
He then bumbed his own posts where he bragged himself up for weeks on other forums.

I rteally expect the LL to have better sense than to help feed his ego.

[Malakar]

Hmm. You could take 2 points out of Improved Sinister Strike and 1 more from Improved Instant Poisons to get 3 for Improved Sap, if you want a bit more PvE for a small PvP hit.

[Malakar]

I commented a bit on this here, in case you missed it.

I seem to have lost the link to that formatter for posting tables on forums that was over at the AB. Anyone have the link? I'd be glad to post my numbers then.

Oh and one more thing. If you have cosmos, it's pretty easy to see that off-hand weapons proc a lot less than main hand weapons. So daggers in the main hand will do more instant poison damage, if that's what you're using. Other than that, the damage is pretty balanced.

[Occhidiangela]

PLEASE DONT say "Yojack".

That egotistical mouth took an obvious build that others tried before him and put his name on it.
He then bumbed his own posts where he bragged himself up for weeks on other forums.

I rteally expect the LL to have better sense than to help feed his ego.
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Corrected. Thanks.

Occhi

[Concillian]

I wanted to add the following recent comments in the rpgforums.net rogue forum in relation to late level group PvE in instances:

At level 60 my crit evisc averages about 1600.

In upper brs most of the mobs there only take about 900 on a crit. Now THAT is armor.

Agreed, the higher level instances nearly require you to use only DoTs (Garrote + Rupture = 1463) Heck, against the bosses of instances I only use DoTs, and that's from VC on up.

And this comment should be useful to all, discussing "ultimate" gear at lvl 60:

I am trying to keep agility as close as I can to 300 and adding +effect gear as I can. My order of importance is +hit%, +attack, +crit%, +dodge%, after parsing some damage (being a mainhand dagger rogue) the +hit% mod adds the most dps by a good margin.

Interesting. I doubt this would be the first assumption of most people, but it makes sense given the way the game works. There are very few ways to increase accuracy given tha no stats make hit% better (rogue has two talents that do, some melee classes have no way of increasing hit% chance at all)

[Roland]

Not sure how many folks want to play a rogue, however, one of the things that slowly went south on the Lounge in D II was the hosting of quality guides.  Of course, plenty of good guides got linked to and were proofed there.

So, in the interest of returning to form, I will be posting from time to time little things I learn about the rogue in this thread.  Anyone else who plays a rogue is welcome to do the same.  When I get home today, I'll do some cut and paste from an older Beta discussion of skills, once I get permission from the author.

Rogues:  We really are the finest adventurers in the World of Warcraft.    :D

Full Disclosure:  This project is aimed at getting me mo betta skilled at the various site tools by having to apply them, and at getting a quality Rogue's guide posted here at the Lounge.  That means . . . I sure don't have, and won't have, the corner on the market of good ideas, far from it, with the sparse game time I have seen in the past week.

Occhi
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Here's my current Rogue build, after MUCH trial and tribulation:

Combat:
Lightning Reflexes - 5
Deflection - 5
Precision - 5
Dagger Specializtion - 5
Blade Fury - 1

Assassination:
Malice - 5
Murder - 2
Improved Slice and Dice - 3
Lethality - 5
Vile Poisons - 5
Improved Instant Poison - 5

Subtlety:
Master of Deception - 5

What this gives me is a huge bonus to Critical Strikes, Instant Poisons (and any poison, for that matter), strong Stealth and incredible speed for attacks. In case you were wondering, I dual-wield Daggers. There's just something so nice about shredding a mob in seconds with a pair of steak knives. ;)

There's room for some play. I would love to put 5 points into Camouflage, bringing my Stealthed movement speed up to 85%, but it would be hard to remove points from elsewhere. Ghostly Strike was another skill I was looking to try and get, but the Subtlety tree is not my strongest focus (despite the IDEA of it being the most appealing). If I took out Dagger Specialization and Blade Fury, though, that would free up 6 points without losing too much, points that I could devote elsewhere (such as Camouflage and Ghostly Strike).

I am only up to level 24 right now (just turned; finished off Lightning Reflexes :)), but so far I'm finding the build to be VERY strong. I can generally solo any mob around my level, up to 2 if they're a few levels below me, and God help anything more than 4 levels below me - me and my twin daggers chew them to shreds. My Instant Poisons generally go off fairly often, but not so much that I'm running out of charges very much at Rank 1 (40 Charges, 30 minutes). I imagine at higher ranks I'll run out of time before I run out of charges, but that's ok. :) The damage dealt by them is very good, at least doubling my normal damage output. Combine that with a heavy Critical Strike rating, and good Dodging skills (24% now, although not quite 5% Parry :/), and I can survive most encounters.

As far as tactics goes, my usual strategy is quite simple:
- Start off Stealthed to scout the area.
- Toss a Distraction to take viewing away from me so I won't unstealth at the wrong moment. Also sets them up for an attack from behind.
- If Multiple enemies, I Sap the stronger / more threatening of them, and try to pull the others away. Otherwise, I Garrote my target, and then move in with multiple Sinister Strikes.
- Usually by the 2nd Sinister Strike my target is at about 50% health, so I nail 'em with a Rupture to bleed them out, and take care of them if they run.
- Spam a couple more Sinister Strikes and, if need be, another Rupture or Eviscerate (damage on this is not high, due to my weapons, so usually it's another Rupture, if they don't die beforehand).
- Toss a throwing knife or two if they run and watch them bleed to death from Rupture.

Most battles are very shortlived, so Rupture doesn't play as much of a role as I'd like, but it does help, especially when they run. Unfortunately, my miss rate is fairly high, but I make up for that with very speedy attacks that deal lots of Poison damage and Critical Strikes. Well, I shouldn't say "fairly high", but it's higher than I'd like. Whiffing a third or a quarter of the time is not my cup of tea. :P

I can't tank nearly as well as a Paladin or a Warrior, but for now I can usually hold my own enough not to worry about it. And if things get too tight, a quick Vanish and I'm gone, off to heal or strike again from a distance, or even to remaneuver for a fresh Garrote.

So far it's been a blast to play. I chew through most mobs quite efficiently, and I'll be glad to see how I do with more +Agility gear, and higher armor (armor needs a good upgrade right about now). I'll never be a Tank, and I may not quite be the "perfect" Rogue, but it sure is fun to Poison someone to death. :)

I'll keep you posted on my progress.