Variant idea

[twentythree]

The idea is a rough cross between Maldar, the Pacifist Hero and the No experience expedition Where Maldar would not kill anything unless absolutely necessary, this variant would not kill anything.

Ever.

More specifically, the character would never kill anything on their own. It is possible to have other things in the game making the kill besides your own character. Mercenaries are the obvious way, but also permitted would be having Flavie make the kill, strategic use of poison and fire shrines, summonable minions, and side-effect deaths that come from killing certain bosses. Passive damage skills may or may not be used depending on how strict the variant is.

Here is a list of skills that are permitted.

Necro:
Everything in the summoning tree, everything in the curse tree, bone armor

Amazon:
Inner sight, dodge, slow missiles, avoid, decoy, Evade, Valkyrie

Paladin:
Everything in the defensive aura tree. Holy shield. Use of thorns is debatable. If the monsters die from hitting you its their own fault. No blood on your hands.

Sorc:
Frozen armor, telekinesis, teleport, energy shield, Warmth, enchant, and all of the masteries. Use of shiver armor and chilling armor is debatable under the same reasoning as using thorns aura. Its not your fault if the monsters wind up killing themselves. Use of Static field is also debatable. You can not kill using static (at least I don't think you can) but you are hurting the monsters yourself.

Barbs:
Everything in the warcy tree, with the exceptions of warcry. Increased stamina, iron skin, increased speed, natural resistance, leap.

Assassin:
Burst of spead, weapon block, cloak of shadows, fade, shadow warrior, shadow master.

Druid:
Everything in the summoning tree, cyclone armor.

A summoning necromancer would probably be the easiest choice. If he is careful about how he plays the first 6 levels (until he gets a golem) he could very easily finish hell. I would suspect that a paladin would be the most difficult to play, with no summonable minions and no way of making quick escapes.
The bottleneck of all characters is figuring out how to kill Bloodraven. Once that quest is done, it becomes a simple matter of hanging back and letting your merc do everything for you.

Any suggestions on what to call this build, or fleshing out the storyline of it, would be helpful. Thanks in advance.

[ZatarRufus]

The bottleneck of all characters is figuring out how to kill Bloodraven.

I tried a level 2 or 3 Taunt (as a test) with no useful effects. And as pointed out to me, the character could not acquire that ability thru any means without being a level six. I wonder if howl would frighten her? Most likely not, but if so then maybe herd BR over to Flavie.

Perhaps party with another character. I've always had the idea that your character would only need to strike a blow to be eligible for the reward when any other member of the party landed the killing blow. Would this qualify for 'no killing'?

Barbs:
Everything in the warcy tree, with the exceptions of warcry. Increased stamina, iron skin, increased speed, natural resistance, leap.

Is this allowing or dis-allowing the stamina, etc?

[War_Master_Ares]

Once you reach a certain level aren't you allowed to hire a merc regardless of if you have killed Blood Raven or not?

[moget?]

Hey,

How is he supposed to get to the level required for rogue mercenaries (level 9) if he doesn't kill anything? :huh: Hmmm? :P

Also,

Is this allowing or dis-allowing the stamina, etc?

Allowing, for sure.

edit: fixed quote

[twentythree]

Perhaps party with another character. I've always had the idea that your character would only need to strike a blow to be eligible for the reward when any other member of the party landed the killing blow. Would this qualify for 'no killing'?

This ould certinly get around the "dont kill anything by your own hand" rule. However, I was thinking this variant would be played in single player like the original Malar.

If causing dammage to monsters is ok just so long as you dont land the killing blow, would you be able to use smite to "push" bloodraven over next to Flavie? Stragic use of a fire shrine or a posin shrine should be able to give you enough exp to go up at least one level so that you can drop a single point into smite.

[Brimstone]

:blink: Hm, sounds like a zookeeper on crack :P Have you playtested this idea yet? I don't think it would be very viable for many other classes than Necro and Druid, and maybe a thorns Pally, unless you twinked some ATD gear - and I don't remember the level requirements offhand for the lowest levels of those.
Ignoring mercs for argument's sake (since they're just cannon fodder for the act bosses most of the time anyway <_< ), how can a character who kills nothing at all get enough XP to level up to their summonables? (and how is a barb to get XP at all?)

However... :)

As a TEAM variant this has some serious potential for interdependency, and as such, Real Fun™! Zookeepers do the killing, barb warcrying crowd control, pally and (gasp) sorcie the ATD tanks...still no good ideas for assassins, though. Perhaps one of the more experienced variant scum (hehe) can help out with that one. Would be tough on a subpar system though, with all those summonables lategame.

What to call this team? The Peace Corps? The Sisters of St. Mary's? (Maybe not that one - ask your local Catholic schoolkid about the "pacifism" of THOSE nuns! :huh: ) Heh - the UN Security Council? :lol: Sends others off to the front lines while they debate about the legitimacy of it all? (hey, there's your warcry tree!)

Of course, as usual, I'm just bored at work, and this may all be a meaningless ramble. As usual. :)

[Brimstone]

I was thinking this variant would be played&nbsp; in single player like the original&nbsp; Malar.

Ah. Ignore my other post in this thread then. :ph34r:

[ZatarRufus]

twentythree
I was thinking this variant would be played  in single player like the original  Maldar.

I am especially interested in SP myself. However, I would hook another computer in so I could do local TCP/IP to get started if that is what it takes. I am personally interested in the Barbarian.

...would you be able to use smite to "push" bloodraven over next to Flavie?

And if we can introduce those two to each other and Flavie could kill Blood Raven, would that even allow the Rogue reward (assuming you had at least struck BR? This knowing that no experience is gained from Flavie's kills.) Would it allow hiring of a Rogue?

How about simple thorns belt picked up to gain the experience for smite? In my no experience boot camp, I deliberately did not use belts with +1 so as to avoid gaining points. So would the 'attacker takes damage of X' be allowed as 'no killing'?

Edit: And couldn't you simply get to level 9 with thorns and then hire the Rogue?

[moget?]

Uh oh,

As a necro your summons are the same level as you are, which mainly factors in for attack rating and defense. They would not be able to hit anything and would get the crap beaten out of them. :unsure: Also, your mercenary would not be able to level beyond your level, so you would be constantly be required to hire yet another merc as you progress in the game. Oh, whats this? Yet another problem. <_< Where are you gonna get all the cash for a merc? Even with clever flavie/shrine usage, its going to be a challenge coming up with 300 gold for a rogue mercenary!

edit: ZatarRufus, to quote myself:

How is he supposed to get to the level required for rogue mercenaries (level 9) if he doesn't kill anything?&nbsp; :huh:&nbsp;&nbsp; Hmmm?&nbsp;&nbsp; :P

Yep. <_<

[ZatarRufus]

Also, your mercenary would not be able to level beyond your level, so you would be constantly be required to hire yet another merc as you progress in the game.

When I've played where BR was my only personal kill, I've had no trouble leveling. It does take a bit longer, but you gain experience from the Rogue's kills. Once you level, then she begans her climb to catch up.

Where are you gonna get all the cash for a merc?

Chests, barrels, Flavie kills, etc. My Nugis_Armatus has around 8000 gold and still good ol' exp=0.

[twentythree]

How about simple thorns belt picked up to gain the experience for smite? In my no experience boot camp, I deliberately did not use belts with +1 so as to avoid gaining points. So would the 'attacker takes damage of X' be allowed as 'no killing'?

A thorns belt I think would work. It does fit the plot of "no blood on my hands". After all, its not your fault if the monsters decide to atack you. If they wind up killing themselves then it is no burden on your conscious.

But ..... can a lvl 1 character even buy a thorns belt? Is that mod aviable on items at such a low level?

Gold, as you said, can be found in chests and under rocks. And every method of having somethign else kill does work with the exception of flavie. Someone in another thread (I cant remember where) said they went up 2 levles just from all the monsterd dying when they activated the carion stones.

I especialy like the idea of party play with this, where nobody does any killing on their own. A Chilling armor sorc with a thorns aura and battle orders on just standing around letting herself get hit appeals to my screwball way of thinking.

[moget?]

Hey, like the idea of just sitting there taking the hits? Me too! I came up with a crazy sorc build designed to just sit there and tank ANYTHING. Most damage taken will goto mana, which i will be sure to get TONS of mana regen!

If you want more info check out the thread in the Workshop. :)

[ZatarRufus]

Someone in another thread (I cant remember where) said they went up 2 levles just from all the monsters dying when they activated the carion stones.

That would be:

LemmingofGlory:
I was playing a "No experience" non-HC Nec last week-ish. He leveled to 2 from the Carin stones frying Raka's minions and from hitting a Poison Shrine.

This is from the 'No experience expedition' thread. [Note to self, try quoting twentythree's first post to figure out how to do the linking thing.]

I chose not to continue posting in that thread as too many things were requiring my attention. LemmingofGlory appeared (to me) to jump at the chance for a well thought out Variant, however I hadn't even considered what to do after boot camp, nor of any other character 'cept the Barbarian.

twentythree:..... can a lvl 1 character even buy a thorns belt? Is that mod aviable on items at such a low level?

Yes. I've found many a belt I 'could' equip, but testing with another character reveiled I'd also gain experience from the richochet kills. This, during boot camp, was contrary to my objective. It also seems as tho I'd found the 'attacker takes damage of X' on other items as well, but since that was taboo to me, I'd sell and not pay particular attention to the stats (mods?).

Which brings me to a point I'd like to make.

moget?:
Where are you gonna get all the cash for a merc? Even with clever flavie/shrine usage, its going to be a challenge coming up with 300 gold for a rogue mercenary!

When running around in the Dark Wood, the Black Marsh, & the Tamoe Highlands, one can open chests which yield items that can be sold for good money. Keep in mind one may spend anywhere from a few minutes to an hour to collect the items. Not because of scarcity, but because you must learn the AI and how to trap and lose the enemies in order to clear the area for safely opening the chest and, of course, acquiring the item. One of my worst situations occurred when I saw a Unique hit the ground and was not able to re-approach it for some time.

Edit: Just noticed, "I saw a Unique hit the..." No, I saw an interestingly colored item hit the ground, and later it turned out to be a Unique.

Edit2: Been a while, I don't recall if one can see the tan color when it falls or after it is identified. Anyhow, it was a small axe of some sort and was exciting for the reason that a no experience character found it.

[ShadowDragon]

Well, technically, if an assassin's, say for example, lightning sentry, killed a monster, that technically isn't killing the monster yourself (just like necro skellies).
Is that correct?

Btw, my first post :)
Dragon

[ZatarRufus]

Well, technically, if&nbsp; an assassin's, say for example, lightning sentry, killed a monster, that technically isn't killing the monster yourself (just like necro skellies).
Is that correct?

Btw, my first post :)
Dragon

ShadowDragon,

Allow me to welcome you to the lounge. I'm rather new here myself.

As to your question, I play only a barbarian. And even at that I know only maces as a weapon. I'm in this thread because I had made a decision to learn a particular character well before proceding to other classes. Besides, I see the Barbarian as a character that can be self sufficient. With find potion, he need not return to town. I've played Fighting Barbs who leave town and not return until Andariel is dead.

[twentythree]

This does enter into a gray area dealing more with ethics and morality than it does with game mechanics.

With a necromancers skeleton there is plausible deniability. "Oh, I am not the one responsible for the killing. The skeleton did it! So I cant be held responsible"

With an assassin, it seems a bit of a stretch to blame the trap. "Oh trap! Look what you did! You killed that monster. Bad trap!" A trap is simply a mechanical device that goes through a preprogrammed series of actions. They do not have a will of their own. (But come to think of it, blaming a fire shrine might be a bit of a stretch as well.)

I admit there is probably some wiggle room here. Like "attacker takes damage" mods on items, much is dependent on how strict of a variant you want to aim for.

[Caaroid]

Hello

still no good ideas for assassins, though.

It is strange to me that you can't find a role for an assassin in a party like this.... when she is the most likely candidate for this type of play. She has the ability to gain resistance and PDR from skill, can reduce monster defense and change their behavior with cloak of shadows, can take dangerous enemies out of action with psychic hammer, and able to deal with packs using mind blast. C'mon, conversion, stun, damage from one skill, what do you need?

Ah, and if the necro can use skeletons, I am sure the assassin would be allowed to use her shadows.

True, most of her beneficiant skills don't show up until lev 12 or later, but do not underestimate the potential of psychic hammer!

If we have the necros and the zookeeper druids as mass killers, sorcs and paladins as tanks (forgetting conversion here I am afraid, let alone thorns if it's allowable), barbs as crowd control, then the assassin can be the boss-tamer in the beginning, then gain crowd control tasks as they get cloak of shadows and mind blast.

Wonder if a party like that would ever come to be :)

[Obi2Kenobi]

The way I look at it is: Would it still have a use if it did no damage? The skeletons would, since they can tank for you. They just happen to kill enemies, you scold them, they say they won't do it again (all the while hacking at new enemies), you raise the body as a skeleton because that fanat cursed ES Moon Lord pack is closing in. Thorns, however... That is a tough decision. Maybe if you could survive until NM to get a thorns merc, then there would be no question from me whether or not it is allowed... For the assassin, MB is a very good skill. It has KB, converts, and it stuns. However, in fitting with the theme of this variant, you probably shouldn't pump it past level 1, so you don't damage the monsters that much. The sorceress would be able to use the cold armors, but Frozen Armor (that is the one that freezes, but does no damage, right?) wouldn't be as useful, unless partied with a skelemancer/druid. And even then, Shiver Armor/That other one (can you tell I play sorcs a lot?) might be better. For the druid, Spirit of Barbs would be stretching it, since you could use the excuse that it is just another body out there to keep you alive, but then wouldn't Oak Sage be better for that?

[Ferengi]

Necro:
Everything in the summoning tree, everything in the curse tree, bone armor

Piece of Cake. Since I can have a merc, this is nearly the same as my current build. it will just take about 2-3 times longer, unless it is SP at players1, in which case it will be fast. More time for HC, but not difficult at all.

[Ferengi]

The bottleneck of all characters is figuring out how to kill Bloodraven.

Once you get to clvl 6, you can hire without dispatching Blood Raven.