How do melee classes kill effectivly in hell?

[DarkPhenomenon]

Maybe I'm just too low or maybe I haven't spent enough time in NM, but I'm like 65ish and I hit hell mode.(Using a drop mod so my eq is better than the average new character) My barbarian can't kill anything and the suckers in hell hurt like well.. hell. Is there anywhere here discussing gameplay and character proficiency/survivablity/killability etc in hell for 1.10? I'm going to have to kick around in NM a little while longer, but I don't see how a couple levels and small equipment upgrades are going to make hell any more do-able :/


Maybe this is the whole point and we are suppose to kick around in NM for a while untill we're really tough.

[dabea93]

When in doubt play like a hardcore character. I have played 1.10 a few times and in normal it wasnt any harder than 1.09, but I have not tried to go to nm or hell. :ph34r:
I'd suggest hardcore tactics you if you doubt your ability to survive until you feel comfortable. I play harcore in 1.09 and it is not uncommon for me to enter hell at level 70 or higher just to be safe.
As for gaining exp you should most likely try doing nm Baal runs, I remember it helping me get exp fairly well also many of the caverns in act 5 have good exp. Dont know if this helps you, but it may.

Good luck on your ventures

Edit: typos fixed

[DarkPhenomenon]

hehe, thanks for the advice, unfortunatly it doesn't help as I'm worried about actually *killing* things, not really about staying alive.

Now, the REASON I'm not worried about staying alive Is because I've been playing hardcore ever since Diablo 2 classic came out (yes, I'm as old a hardcore player as you can get). and I know how to stay alive. I haven't died once in the 1.10 beta (I went completely legit, no drop mod until NM council runs, then I backed up my char, and kept going with the drop mod so I could progress a little faster). In hell I was having a hell of a time killing zombies in the den and they HURT. I take things slow when they are new (You know, the whole hardcore survivability thing) which meant letting my merc take a few hits before I attempted them.

As I said, I'm having a hell of a time actually killing things in hell (runing away a lot and gathering too many enemies to kill off at once) My merc dies, and if ther's more than a couple of monsters at once or any boss with bad mods It's pretty much impossible for me.

I'm just worried about actually killing things and progressing through hell as a melee char...

[MongoJerry]

Adding some levels will help your "to hit" rolls at least and make it harder for monsters to hit you, so it should help some. I've found it's pretty easy to get to level 78 by doing some 8-player nightmare Baal runs.

As far as killing things, perhaps you could describe your build a little -- what skills you're focusing on and use as well as what weapon you're using. Perhaps we can make some suggestions then.

[DarkPhenomenon]

WW/zerk/Bo/Sword masry (typical cookie cutter 1.09 barb)

I have most decent unqiues, shaft, gaze, string, i believe i'm using a swordguard or a cruel exec sword.

Maybe I'm thinking too much like 1.09 :/

Obviously I'm trying to get a better weapon, but I don't see it making a huge difference. :/

[roguebanshee]

Poison damage, PMH or Open Wounds to combat monster regeneration. Getting PMH on a non-weapon (unique/set), a cruel elite sword (remember that cruel can spawn on rares in 1.10) or a runeword* would probably be the best option for you.

*Fury, Breath of the Dying, Call to Arms & Kingslayer have PMH and can be made in swords, Crescent Moon is cheap, can be made in swords and has Open Wounds.

[Guest]

the average starting level for hell is 80 in 1.10, you were in a bit too much in a hurry ;)

weapon masteries are only worth a single point, the rest you should use in the war cry tree. you better start a new char(lvl 99) and try out howl, taunt, battle cry and war cry. they make a massive difference.

ah, here it is, the intelligence required barb build

[Tal]

In addition to adamantine's advice I would suggest a point in Grimward - really helps keep the crowd away when you need breathing room. :)

[MongoJerry]

Perhaps it's time for an update on Occhi's Frenzy Barb. Frenzy and Concentrate got a lot of synergy bonuses in 1.10 while WW didn't. Perhaps the idea is that barbarians are supposed to start using these skills instead. Sorry, I haven't played melee characters enough to give you much useful information myself (well, ok, I played a melee sorceress, but I don't think that's the kind of thing you're interested in).

[MongoJerry]

By the way, from reading the forums at diabloii.net, I understand that in the 1.10 betas, enhanced damage jewels seem to increase a person's overall damage rather than just add to the enhanced damage on a person's weapon. People seem to be unsure if this is a bug or a feature. So, if you want to massively increase the damage your barbarian deals, you can try to socket up your equipment with as many ed jewels that you can find. However, just know that it's possible that the jewels won't work this way in the final release.

[adeyke]

The way this works is that, apparently, ED on non-weapon equipment is treated as an extra factor in the damage equation. That is, the ED from non-weapon equipment is multiplied with the ED from skills and stats instead of adding to it. So, an X% jewel in your armour will actually increase physical damage by X%, provided you don't already have non-weapon equipment ED.

[Guest]

enhanced damage jewels seem to increase a person's overall damage rather than just add to the enhanced damage on a person's weapon.

it's exactly the same as critical/deadly strike as for as damage goes, except this can over 100(and since zons have it already, thus the jewels are even more overpowering).

i mean there's no normal items or mods that give deadly strike, so just jewels giving something like it seems pretty strange.

i'm pretty sure it was bugged like this a couple of versions ago(the first expansion version, or the beta of it), and it was intentionally corrected to work like on weapon ED.

[DarkPhenomenon]

Why isn't mastry worth more than 1 point, it ups your damage and crit %. Does something change significantly in 1.10 to alter the user of a mastry or is that just a personal oppinion of yours?

Level 80 for hell eh? that actually sounds about right from the difficulty.

As for the cruel mod on rares, when does that become available? Can i Get a 300% damage wep in nightmare?
I'll keep at the WW barb for now and see how he does with a better weapon, higher level and some sort of combat mod for monster heal.

[adeyke]

In 1.09, the mastery bug meant you always had 100% critical strike with even a single bug. This was fixed for 1.10. However, this would mean that extra points are worth more now.

The new cruel affix that's allowed on rares requires alvl 56 and can spawn on any weapon except staves, wands and orbs. The ilvl needed for it depends on the qlvl of the base item.

[BlackLightning]

Hey man, I saw this post, and thought I'd contribute to it.
I love the Avenger build for the Paladin, since it does so much damage regardless of the type of weapon you're using (within reasonable boundaries) :blink: .

Anyway, using elemental damage charms or runes, rune words, etc. that add elemental damage are a great way to kill things in hell. Effectively, hardly anything is resistant to every element, and you'll find that once you do at least 2 or more kinds of elemental damage, killing stuff becomes a breeze.

One note - don't try to add too much poison damage to weapon/inventory space (charms), since the poison takes time to work, and you'll have to run and watch them drop. Other than that, you'll tk0 most stuff in no time. :D

[Nicator]

If time is no issue, the objective is to make more damage/time than monster's life regeneration/time.

Assuming the character has a mid/low damage and lower chances to hit, against high hp monsters, the life regeneration must be stopped. A solution is to poison them. Those poison immune can be killed by 'open wounds' items, and physical and posion immunes only by 'prevent monster heal'.

Some other ways, are: 1. Increasing the chances to hit, by better AR or higher clvl; 2. Damage multipliers, against demons, undeads; 3. Crushing Blow or Deadly Strike; 4. Chances to cast Amplify Damage, from items or party; and/or the obvious, 5. Better weapon(s).

[Guest]

going by logic you won't find just weapons for the mastery that you've boosted, so if you get a cruel mace and have 20 in sword mastery, that's not too fun.

[Crystalion]

Assuming the character has a mid/low damage and lower chances to hit, against high hp monsters, the life regeneration must be stopped. A solution is to poison them. Those poison immune can be killed by 'open wounds' items, and physical and posion immunes only by 'prevent monster heal'.

While, as of v1.10s, afaik, open wounds is only carried by skills (i.e. attacks) that are in some sense "physical" that "succeed", and it is true that a purely "physical" attack does not "succeed" vs. a physical immune, iirc such an attack with an elemental adder that the monster is not immune to will nonetheless "succeed" thereby triggering the Open Wounds effect (which does not care about physical immunity per se).

My recollection can be easily put to the test: go bare hand normal attack some PI monsters while wearing OW stuff (armor etc.) and observe that they never are harmed--then pull a weenie cold, fire, or lightning charm out of your cube and see if you can cause them to suffer the obvious OW HP dropping.

[Nicator]

Interesting remark. Yes, 'open wounds' has a poison-alike effect but again, afaik, it is triggered by a physical damage.

If your first paragraph is right, the game is making a distinction between elemental damage carried by physical contact and elemental damage carried by a spell. It looks a little bit complex but can be true, of course. It's also possible that 'open wounds' could be triggered by any damage, opening possibilities for spell classes.

I'll try to test it on a huge hp physical and poison immune with high life regeneration. More than watching his life drop -363.67 over 4 seconds in a clvl 99-, the lack of life regeneration should be visible.

[adeyke]

A recent post by Ruvanal revealed the interconnectedness of different damage types from an attack. The damage types are treated separately, but it's only after the damages are added together that the game checks if the damage is negative (in which case it sets it to zero). With this in mind, it seems rather plausible (but possibly incorrect) that there's also a conditional after this: if the final damage is positive, apply open wounds. If that sort of check is after the physical damage calculation only, open wounds won't have any effect on PIs.