The Ninja is back

[Raziel]

Dagni: all setups.

I'm sure the crush misses were in fact missed crushes because I saw the hit animation. My char was wearing Angelic rings + ammy, for about 3000 AR - should be more than enough to consistently hit Quill Rats, Zombies and Fallen :)

A point that I want to mention is that the runeword "Strength" (Amn + Tir) should NOT be underestimated for this build: 25% Crushing Blow, +20 strength, 7% Lifesteal. Wielding two of these means 40 strength which is a pretty crazy bonus to kick damage at level 25. From my testing, the Crushing Blow from the two weapons stack together for Blade Fury but I'm sure that should NOT be happening. I know that only the elemental damage / curses from the primary claw gets applied via Blade Fury if you're dual wielding two claws. But I know what I saw when running a naked char around Act 1 - with one "Strength" claw, crushes happened rarely.. but with two, it was a lot more frequent.

[Occhidiangela]

Pre LoD, CB did half of life remaining, versus one quarter.

If your base damage was pretty low, it would appear that the entire life bar movement was being done by CB, which for practical purposes, it is in the Naked test you presented. :)

I am confident that CB will probably be set to 25% for the real 1.10. Of course, if it isn't, then just sign me up for some blood crafts, or a set of Goblin Toes and a pair of Strength Axes for my Barbarian.

[whyBish]

Definately, very noticable if you use a poison charm (without venom) with a char in a matchup with a low chance-to-hit. Playing through in players one with blade fury I ended up 'getting stumped' around nm a4 due to AR issues. (No AR bonus hurts, even with partially pumping dex to allow for better claws)

[Ice]

If you're doing 50% CB damage to each monster, something's very fishy... because fallens have only 15% physical resistance whereas quill rats and zombies both have 50% physical resistance.

If you're doing 50% damage to zombies and quill rats when they have 50% resistance... how much damage would you do to a monster with no physical resistance (say act 2 vultures)?

Based on the explanation by black_spy in the other thread, crushing blow removing 25% of monster's life tallied with every tests I had with monsters of varying physical resistances (with generated items) and also with the damages I was observing with a low damage zealot/smiter (with game dropped items).

[Raziel]

Here's a very basic test char, feel free to try it for yourself.

Level 35, completed up to Act 4 Normal (Shadowmaster'd)

Skills: Dragon Talon: 20, Cloak of Shadows: 1, Blade Fury: 1, rest unallocated
Stats: None allocated!

Equipment: Dual "Strength" Katars.

http://www22.brinkster.com/craziel/kiqtest.d2s.basic

Drag 'n Drop or Cut 'n Paste, and take ".basic" off the end after downloading.

[Winter]

I have a level 50 bootysin in a2 NM right now. I could put her up if people wanted to try the theory out, but i don't have any way to host files.

She's kinda beefy (i'm running through players 8 NM like it was players 1) and has some nice gear (including a Stone of Jordan(!) that i picked up from Andariel last night(!!) of all things) and shows no sign of slowing down in NM. I'm grabbing Venom for Phys Immunes, possibly Death Sentry for phys/poison immunes (not like there're many of those- i could probably skip all of them and not feel too bad), pumping Dragon Talon (it's at level 20 with all her skill adders), got some points in Blade Fury and Blade Shield (though i think i might not go that route if i were to re-make her, Blade Shield is uber-bugged to do about 1-4 damage and from what i've seen does no Crushing Blow; CB and cold damage where basically what i got it for so it isn't very good), and a point in all the Shadow skills (putting more in Mind Blast, Cloak of Shadows, probably Shadow Master, Burst of Speed, probably Fade).

Anyway, i guess she's a bit more than "proof of concept", so maybe handing her out isn't going to be that great (build your own! :P) but i figured if someone wanted to see a "real live" version of the theory, i've got one.

[whyBish]

I agree that talon is great, but how do you get enough AR for BF to work?
In A4NM I was connecting with about 1 in 3.

[Winter]

I agree that talon is great, but how do you get enough AR for BF to work?
In A4NM I was connecting with about 1 in 3.

If you're asking me, i don't know. I think DTalon is hands-down better than BFury. Dtalon gets +550 AR at level 22 or so, does more attacks in less time (BFury is 5 frame attack, Dtalon is "3" frames with a 7/2 four-kick routine- though the BFury is much easier to get and doesn't rely on any sort of IAS so no chill or any of that), and does more significant physical damage (at least into a2 NM) so it can deal with poison immunes more easily.

In short, i don't even bother with BFury except as situational. I'll pull it out for guys who're too dangerous for me to get anywhere near (venom lord bosses have been my favorite target for that so far) or who're physical immune and don't get too up close.

Either that or get like a Fool's +1000 ar weapon and stick some points into Dex.

AR is much more important in 1.10 than it was in 1.09, i think.

[Brista]

In the 1.10 Beta, I'd just run Normal Meph for items

Most low level sets have an item that gives huge AR bonuses: Sigons Helm and Angelic Ring for instance

I don't know what they intended to do with MFing ("nerf boss runs") but it appears to be just as lucrative as ever except 1) lowest quality is yellow not blue and 2) you don't need MF

[Raziel]

hands-down better than BFury. Dtalon gets +550 AR at level 22 or so, does more attacks in less time (BFury is 5 frame attack, Dtalon is "3"  frames with a 7/2 four-kick routine- though the BFury is much easier to get and doesn't rely on any sort of IAS so no chill or any of that), and does more significant physical damage (at least into a2 NM) so it can deal with poison immunes more easily.

Can't say I disagree. Dtalon is certainly superior.

Unfortunately once you get to hell there are a lot more things that you don't want to go anywhere near, even under Cloak of Shadows :( Dtalon remains the superior damage/crush dealer but comes at a significant risk.

At least Blade Fury you don't have to step into range of their dimmed vision to damage them. That's it's only advantage.

I'm still looking for a way to deal with PI's in Hell. So far the only thing I can think of is Phoenix Strike + "Crescent Moon".

I'm going to post a request on the Blizzard forum asking for synergies between Mind Blast, Cloak of Shadows and Psychic Hammer. Edit: Scratch that. Neither Mind Blast nor Psychic Hammer do any damage worth synergising.

[Ice]

I don't think you can really give a good comparison between the two.

Dragon Talon has the very clear advantage speed-wise, so for purpose of delivering quick crushing blows they are far superior. The disadvantage is that you need a more skill points to hit a good number of kicks and the last few hits are dependent largely on the boots and the str/dex of the assassin. Also you need to go close to the enemies to deal the damage, which can be very dangerous in hell.

Blade Fury on the other hand has a slow rate of crushing blow but needs only 2 points to reach its full potential, leaving a lot more points to spend between trap synergies. This goes well with the fact that it is ranged and you can focus more on laying traps and then spraying out the blades while the traps dish the damage. With greater synergies, the traps will be more significant in dealing the last few hits.

I see them as two rather distinctive styles of play but personally, I prefer the blade fury route as it allows me to have better traps which gives a better balance between physical (from ethereal weapon or crushing blow) and elemental (high trap synergies) damage. In a way you also can call it a safer route as you would not be in full combat with the very heavy hitters in hell and can have more points to spend in vitality or even energy.

[narcisco]

So are you saying the trapper is back equipped with kicks and ninja stars.

[Crystalion]

I'm still looking for a way to deal with PI's in Hell.

About this Blade Fury needs AR "problem"... Since the AR isn't displayed research should be done, but the AR related bonuses on your weapon probably (v1.10 beta) helps, as everything else on your weapon helps that I've tested. In addition, if your weapon is a claw, I'd not be surprised if Claw Mastery helps the AR.

Piercing and other % ignore target defense will help against those not immune.

Finally "1 in 3" might not be an unacceptable hit/miss ratio if you're trying to transmit effects, rather than net damage, given that the skill spams well.


About the PIs in Hell... you should be able to CoS, MB (for converts/distraction), and spam BF carrying Prevent Monster Heal and Venom and elemental adders. If they themselves deal non-physical then the converts work especially well.

With poison often being of short duration these days (not to mention poison immunes) I think v1.10s increased monster HPs are really going to make PMH very popular. All ranged attacks that can hit multiple monsters with PMH in a short period of time thereby become useful preludes to many combats and greatly enhance the value of crowd control methods in general (as one of the main objections to crowd control is dispersion of targets unfortunately allowing monster regen).

Even if you generally prefer Dragon Talon, Blade Fury only needs 2 points (as Ice pointed out: prereq, one-point-wonder... but let me point out that the increased mana cost from more points seems to me a greater detriment than the weenie added damage [could someone check if it also adds AR or something else even though it doesn't display as such?]).

While you could continue to primarily use Dragon Talon, in those cases, like PIs, where the battle is going to stretch out because your damage output is crippled, you might as well shift gears to BF because you'll be safer while wearing them down (I suggest a weapon switch to dual claws for max. affixes: AR solution, elemental adders, crowd control).

[Winter]

Even if you generally prefer Dragon Talon, Blade Fury only needs 2 points (as Ice pointed out: prereq, one-point-wonder... but let me point out that the increased mana cost from more points seems to me a greater detriment than the weenie added damage [could someone check if it also adds AR or something else even though it doesn't display as such?]).

Let me just spell out why: My BF has about a 40% chance to hit in Hell act1. My Dragon Talon is between 75 and 85, depending on what i'm fighting. My Dragon Talon does about 4 times the damage of my Blade Fury (though admittedly i've been trying to boost Dragon Talon damage at the expense of higher damage to BF) and hits faster. Blade Fury, on the other hand, is "safer". Personally- not only do i use more Dtalon than BF, i'm regretting putting any points into BF at all. That combined with the Blade Shield bug makes me unhappy with those points. On the other hand, a single point in Death Sentry is being very useful...

[Raziel]

Wear the angelic rings + amulet. They're not hard to get.

[Dagni]

It looks like CB takes half the life bar though. That can't be right.

Ok, after reading about the Tir bug, which apparently also affects Vulpine items, I figure the CB bug may well be basically the same bug. So indeed this same bug may affect many other things such as Deadly Strike, Open Wounds, or Chance to Cast items - if you can get two or more items with the same effect.

Anyway, if CB does work like the 'Tir' bug, then if you had EVER equipped two or more CB items during that gaming session, then even if you later took those items off and replaced them with just a single CB source the doubling effect would still occur. One possible way to test this, based on the 'Tir' report, would be to equip three CB items and test CB as normal, then die and recover your body a half-dozen times, and test again to see if each sucessful CB now does vastly more damage.

If this bug does indeed affect CB, then depending on how the stacking works, it may even be possible to have CB kill monsters in one hit! Obviously that'd be a game-breaking bug, but boy would it be cool to see! :blink:

[Dagni]

Tested this myself. Crushing blow is indeed like the +mana per kill bug.

I tested with Guillame's Face, Rattlecage, and Goblin Toes, also I equipped Cranium Basher during the dying part. At first, attacking a A1/Hell zombie (50% phys resist) on players 8 with my fists, I did 10% or less damage with the first hit. After dying and recovering my body over 20 times, I did around 80% damage with the first hit. If I hit a fallen, with only 15% physical resist, I'd do around 95%. With ranged attacks, or Blade Fury, I'd do about 55% damage to the zombie, or 75% to the fallen. This kind of huge increase from dying repeatedly clearly shows that this bug is based upon the same basic problem as the +mana per kill bug.

Doing the math, using black_spy's info here, the different damage estimates I was getting for fallen vs zombie, ranged vs melee, matched up great if I assumed ~ 58 CBs (having died 29 times) were activated sequentially each hit.

Also of note, Blade Fury was clearly doing exactly the same amount of damage as if I used a bow - rather than doing 3/4 damage like if it were affected by Blade Fury's weapon damage penalty. And neither Blade Sentinel nor Blade Shield were doing CB at all - not even at 3/128ths damage for Blade Shield.

Also, when I single-clicked Blade Fury on a monster, I always threw 2 stars, but the first always hit (or at least I never noticed it miss), and the second never hit. My to hit was, I think, below 50%, so this phenomenon made me wonder if Blade Fury auto-hits, but has some kind of bug that makes many stars auto-miss.

- Dagni

[Raziel]

I've tested it myself. CB is indeed buggy, applying once for every CB item you're wearing, for each hit.

*sigh*

No wonder the build kicked so much ass.

[whyBish]

Don't be glum, even without CB a good pair of boots goes a long way... Oh and b.t.w NM hellforge dropped me an UM :drool:

I'm thinking of a crescent moon/strength dual katars getup, pity I'll have to drop the dual leech wand (8/8 with 40 mana and about 35 fire/30 lit resists as it was socketed)

Thorns mercs still work as nicely as ever, combined with mind blast for meleers. Either that or Cloak of shadows for ranged attackers, and you can always quickly get a few corpses for DS anyway... there's your crushing blow if/when they fix the bug ;)

[roguebanshee]

I'm thinking of a crescent moon/strength dual katars getup

You're going to have to revise that since Crescent Moon only works in Axes, Swords and Polearms. Still, a Crescent Moon Phase Blade isn't the worst thing to give to an assassin (or any other sword-swinger).