On assaulting Nurses and Pro Football players.

[Alram]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...76766.html

Spanish police thugs doing what they do best - not only beating up workers and voters, but the fire fighters who were trying to shield them as well. As stated before, being a cop is the most despicable profession on the face of the earth. They even went as low to beat up an elderly woman. Police everywhere, are scum.

Please detail all the facts that you know about the referendum in Catalonia.

^^Your nose reeks of Spanish pig dung. Hint: The details of the referendum do NOT legitimize police brutality and thuggery in any circumstances.

You know its fucked when even members of a British bourgeois capitalist party condemn it:

I asked you a simple unemotional question. You responded by insulting me.

[FireIceTalon]

You basically insulted and victim blamed unarmed protestors and fire fighters by insinuating they possibly deserved to get assaulted by a bunch of fascist thugs wearing badges, because you might take issue with the details of the referendum. If not, why do the details matter?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/01/europe/cat...index.html

Catalonia voted for independence, and this was the natural, inevitable reaction from far right forces to suppress Catalonians from self-determination. To me, it seems like you are looking for possible justification behind the actions of these cops, where there is none.

[Alram]

I asked a simple question no more. I wanted to know how much you knew about the situation. In return I received an insult.

[FireIceTalon]

I asked a simple question no more. I wanted to know how much you knew about the situation. In return I received an insult.

I know enough that would be "yes to independence" voters of this referendum were harassed, assaulted, and threatened with legal action for trying to invoke their democratic right to vote for sovereignty. Additionally, police have been raiding polling stations and seizing ballots to prevent the referendum from going through. The highest Spanish court even made the vote unconstitutional so that Spain could retain control over the lives of [would be] Catalan citizens.

Of course, when fascist, anti-separation protesters went around the streets of Barelona looking for any pro-separation voter to beat their brains in, there was no problem with that.

Why do they want independence? Because Catalans have their own culture, language and national identity that is independent of Spains. Not to mention, they are one of the most economically repressed parts of Spain with one of the highest tax rates in all of Europe - so much so that their education, healthcare and overall standard of living has suffered greatly. There is also a historical territorial factor, in that they never were a part of Spanish territory WILLFULLY.

[kandrathe]

I asked a simple question no more. I wanted to know how much you knew about the situation. In return I received an insult.

It must have been your snide and sarcastic font... wait... I’m using it! Ah! I used it again! Aieeeee!

[Alram]

I asked a simple question no more. I wanted to know how much you knew about the situation. In return I received an insult.

I know enough that would be "yes to independence" voters of this referendum were harassed, assaulted, and threatened with legal action for trying to invoke their democratic right to vote for sovereignty. Additionally, police have been raiding polling stations and seizing ballots to prevent the referendum from going through. The highest Spanish court even made the vote unconstitutional so that Spain could retain control over the lives of [would be] Catalan citizens.

Of course, when fascist, anti-separation protesters went around the streets of Barelona looking for any pro-separation voter to beat their brains in, there was no problem with that.

Why do they want independence? Because Catalans have their own culture, language and national identity that is independent of Spains. Not to mention, they are one of the most economically repressed parts of Spain with one of the highest tax rates in all of Europe - so much so that their education, healthcare and overall standard of living has suffered greatly. There is also a historical territorial factor, in that they never were a part of Spanish territory WILLFULLY.

There are several inaccuracies in your statements.
Language
There are about as many Catalan speakers outside Catalonia as there are in it (Valencia, Balearic Islands, Aragon).
Additionally, Spanish is the first language for more people in Catalonia than Catalan. 55% -- Spanish as 1st language vs. 31% for Catalan.

Demographics
People originally from other regions of Spain outnumber Catalans in many areas of Catalonia, especially in Barcelona.

Economy
Catalonia is one of the most prosperous areas of Spain. They are not "economically repressed". Catalonia does pay out more to the central government than it receives back, essentially helping poorer areas of Spain, a redistribution of wealth.

History
Catalans overwhelmingly approved the 1978 constitution, the terms of which render a unilateral vote for independence null and void.


There is more, but I am tired and I am going to bed. Buenas noches.

[FireIceTalon]

I asked a simple question no more. I wanted to know how much you knew about the situation. In return I received an insult.

I know enough that would be "yes to independence" voters of this referendum were harassed, assaulted, and threatened with legal action for trying to invoke their democratic right to vote for sovereignty. Additionally, police have been raiding polling stations and seizing ballots to prevent the referendum from going through. The highest Spanish court even made the vote unconstitutional so that Spain could retain control over the lives of [would be] Catalan citizens.

Of course, when fascist, anti-separation protesters went around the streets of Barelona looking for any pro-separation voter to beat their brains in, there was no problem with that.

Why do they want independence? Because Catalans have their own culture, language and national identity that is independent of Spains. Not to mention, they are one of the most economically repressed parts of Spain with one of the highest tax rates in all of Europe - so much so that their education, healthcare and overall standard of living has suffered greatly. There is also a historical territorial factor, in that they never were a part of Spanish territory WILLFULLY.

There are several inaccuracies in your statements.
Language
There are about as many Catalan speakers outside Catalonia as there are in it (Valencia, Balearic Islands, Aragon).
Additionally, Spanish is the first language for more people in Catalonia than Catalan. 55% -- Spanish as 1st language vs. 31% for Catalan.

Demographics
People originally from other regions of Spain outnumber Catalans in many areas of Catalonia, especially in Barcelona.

Economy
Catalonia is one of the most prosperous areas of Spain. They are not "economically repressed". Catalonia does pay out more to the central government than it receives back, essentially helping poorer areas of Spain, a redistribution of wealth.

History
Catalans overwhelmingly approved the 1978 constitution, the terms of which render a unilateral vote for independence null and void.


There is more, but I am tired and I am going to bed. Buenas noches.

LOL. Comrade, you actually did the exact opposite of what you intended, and CONFIRMED what I said as being correct.

There are several inaccuracies in your statements.
Language
There are about as many Catalan speakers outside Catalonia as there are in it (Valencia, Balearic Islands, Aragon).
Additionally, Spanish is the first language for more people in Catalonia than Catalan. 55% -- Spanish as 1st language vs. 31% for Catalan.

Entirely irrelevant to what I stated, which is that Catalan and Spanish are distinctive, separate languages, with which you just concurred. I have a sneaky suspicion anyways, that most of the Catalans who favor independence, speak Catalan as their first and/or primary language. I mean, I could be wrong, but is it a bet I would take to Vegas? You betcha.

Demographics
People originally from other regions of Spain outnumber Catalans in many areas of Catalonia, especially in Barcelona.

Again, irrelevant. What does the population of Catalans relative to the number of non-Catalans have absolutely anything to do with Catalans desiring nationhood and self-determination? You guessed it, nothing.

Economy
Catalonia is one of the most prosperous areas of Spain. They are not "economically repressed". Catalonia does pay out more to the central government than it receives back, essentially helping poorer areas of Spain, a redistribution of wealth.

Which has made things very difficult for working class Catalans for the past 30+ years. Whether separation is a good thing or not economically for either Catalonia or Spain is another, more complex matter of course. But in general, I think you have a very rosy view of things regarding Catalonia's economy based on what you see on paper.

America has the largest GDP in the world, but also one of the largest disparities of inequality in both income and wealth distribution, and ranks a dismal 36th in the world in healthcare. Simply looking at numbers on paper, you wouldn't think that, with the country being one of the wealthiest in the world. What does this have to do with Catalonia? That both America and Catalonia look very prosperous on paper, and to a certain extent, that is true. But it doesn't tell the whole story. On the ground, things are at best, much more complicated than that. Prosperous is a relative term here.

http://fortune.com/2015/01/30/spain-cata...s-economy/

It isn't just a simple redistribution of wealth that has many Catalans pissed off. From the article:

For many Catalans, the complaint is not simply that Catalonia subsidizes poorer regions of Spain. Rather, it is that Catalonia does so to such an extent that many of Spain’s other regions have more resources per capita than Catalonia to spend on essential services. The redistribution of tax money in Spain doesn’t merely bridge the wealth gap between regions; it reorders the divide.

More galling to many in Catalonia is that the regions of País Vasco (Basque Country) and Navarra have a special deal that lets them keep almost all of their tax receipts instead of forwarding them to the central government. According to López, that leaves them with 40% to 60% more in resources per capita.

History
Catalans overwhelmingly approved the 1978 constitution, the terms of which render a unilateral vote for independence null and void.

I have some news for you. We are not in 1978 anymore. We are in fact, in the year 2017. Many Catalans, certainly the ones who favor independence, couldn't give a single fuck about the constitution. Many of the ones who favor independence probably were either extremely young in 1978 or not even born yet. Just because something is law, doesn't mean its legitimate. It took a civil war to end slavery as law, ownership of another HUMAN BEING, in this country.

Most importantly, the law does NOT justify police brutality and thuggery against unarmed protesters and voters who are expressing their democratic right.

All in all, I don't necessarily have an opinion one way or the other on Catalonia achieving independence. I do, however, fully and absolutely support their right to protest without being threatened, assaulted, and bullied by ultra-right scum and terrorist cops.

But, as a habitual apologist and panderer of the status quo, I don't expect you to understand any of this.

[Archon_Wing]

I don't get why they had to assault voters. Couldn't they just have said "nah, this vote isn't valid". Assaulting voters just makes them look like they would fear the results.

[FireIceTalon]

Catalonia is a major source of wealth/tax revenue for Spain. An independent Catalonia is almost certainly not in the vested interests of the Spanish ruling classes and Spanish state. Therefore, they will do whatever it takes to suppress any movement toward Catalan self-determination and independence - including the use of violence and coercion, quite obviously. I wouldn't expect anything less from reactionaries and fascists - this is their historical MO when ideological control and pro-capitalist indoctrination is no longer enough because the workers obtain 'class consciousness'. Of course, when the working class fights back, only then is it called "violence".

[Alram]

Entirely irrelevant to what I stated, which is that Catalan and Spanish are distinctive, separate languages, with which you just concurred. I have a sneaky suspicion anyways, that most of the Catalans who favor independence, speak Catalan as their first and/or primary language. I mean, I could be wrong, but is it a bet I would take to Vegas? You betcha.

If you are correct then most people who live there do not support independence from Spain, since less than one third of the population speak Catalan as their first language.
Moreover, my points about language are relevant because you stated, "Why do they want independence? Because Catalans have their own culture, language..." You brought up the language, not me.

History
Catalans overwhelmingly approved the 1978 constitution, the terms of which render a unilateral vote for independence null and void.

I have some news for you. We are not in 1978 anymore. We are in fact, in the year 2017.

I pointed out that Catalonia overwhelmingly approved the 1978 constitution because you made the incorrect observation that, "they never were a part of Spanish territory WILLFULLY." That is just absolutely incorrect.

The primary reason some residents of Catalonia want to secede is the redistribution of wealth. It is odd that a communist such as yourself is opposed to the redistribution of wealth.

I agree that police do abuse their positions. I have seen police overstep their bounds with my own eyes. However, you should probably avoid making sweeping reckless statements about without full possession of the facts. As Mark Twain said, “Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.”

[FireIceTalon]

If you are correct then most people who live there do not support independence from Spain

Sure about that?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2...-vote-live

According to this, over 90% voted for independence. Granted, less than half of the population casted votes since many voting stations were raided by police, but it's pretty safe to say the majority of Catalans favor independence.

Moreover, my points about language are relevant because you stated, "Why do they want independence? Because Catalans have their own culture, language..." You brought up the language, not me.

Yes, language is a part of their cultural identity, which many Catalans consider not to be symbiotic with Spain's. This almost certainly is the perspective for most of the ones who favor independence, which if the above numbers are correct, is an exorbitant amount. Whether most Catalans who favor independence speak their native language as their primary or not, isn't so important as that they view their culture, lifestyle, and national identity to be separate from that of Spains, even if language is a part of that identity. It is one of several reasons that many Catalans want self-determination.

I pointed out that Catalonia overwhelmingly approved the 1978 constitution because you made the incorrect observation that, "they never were a part of Spanish territory WILLFULLY." That is just absolutely incorrect.

Not incorrect. As a matter of fact, Catalans desire for independence stretches back well before 1978.

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/10/2/1639...referendum

From the article:

At stake in the entire fight is the future of Catalonia, home to the city of Barcelona and one of the richest of Spain’s 17 provinces stretching from below the city of Tarragona to the French border. It has its own language (Catalan), education system, and cultural and literary traditions. The current Catalan independence push began roughly 80 years ago, when dictator Francisco Franco suppressed both Catalan culture and language, but some in the region trace the desire for autonomy back hundreds of years, to the inclusion of Catalonia in Spain in the early 18th century.

The primary reason some residents of Catalonia want to secede is the redistribution of wealth. It is odd that a communist such as yourself is opposed to the redistribution of wealth.

That's because you are conflating communism with social democracy/reformism. NOT the same thing. If you had a better understanding of what these two things are, it wouldn't seem odd at all. I am a Marxist, not a social democrat. Jester and Eppie would be the social democrats of the Lounge. There was a time when Marxism and 'social democracy' were synonymous terms, but that hasn't been the case since roughly 1914.

A Marxist perspective of the national question regarding Catalonia:

http://www.marxist.com/the-independence-...estion.htm

But, I am not sure if this will make sense to you. You probably need to go back and read some basic communist texts and literature (namely, the application of Historical Materialism and how/why it is central to Marxist thought), before you can understand a Marxist position and analysis on a complex issue like Catalonia. Or, some of the posts from the good folks over at Revleft.com - I'm pretty certain the differences between communism and social democracy/reformism have been discussed at great length over there.

"Redistribution of wealth" is a pejorative term and buzzword used by reactionaries to politically slander anything that is between an inch and mile to their left, and it has zero do with communism.

you should probably avoid making sweeping reckless statements about without full possession of the facts.

You may do well to follow your own advice

I've had full possession of the facts throughout this exchange so far, with sources to back them up. You? Plenty of half truths and assertions, but less facts, and absolutely zero sources thus far.

[Alram]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2...-vote-live

According to this, over 90% voted for independence. Granted, less than half of the population casted votes since many voting stations were raided by police, but it's pretty safe to say the majority of Catalans favor independence.

On the day of the 'referendum', there were no registration rolls, no polling stations, ballot boxes came pre-filled, anyone could cast multiple votes. And people did.
There was no electoral commission, no checks, no counting procedure. Secessionists commited countless violations of their own voting laws.
A huge number of ballots were never counted.
58% of the people did not vote; primarily those against secession; it was after all an illegal referendum.

In a region of 7,504,000 people... 2,000,000 is a clear minority.

[FireIceTalon]

Less assertions, more sources please. I also find it funny you didn't bother to address the rest of my post

58% of the people did not vote; primarily those against secession

Im sure police raiding and destroying many polling stations and seizing ballots to sabotage the referendum wasn't a factor leading up to the day of. Nor was the fact many were probably afraid to go vote for fear of being brutally assaulted by a bunch of thugs wearing badges a factor.

it was after all an illegal referendum.

I literally LOL'd at this. Because we all know the law applies when it comes to situations of class struggle, self-determination and revolution.

Nooooooot.

Anyways, should a revolutionary situation ever arise here, I know what side of the barracks you'd be on, and it sure as hell won't be the same side I'm on. Maybe the cops will lend you a spare suit of riot gear.

[kandrathe]

Well, back on topic...

I guess it turns out Micheal Bennett was a bit veracity challenged in the whole racial profiling and being singled out for being black.

[roguebanshee]

Well, back on topic...

I guess it turns out Micheal Bennett was a bit veracity challenged in the whole racial profiling and being singled out for being black.

That more or less proves my initial point about that incident. The "They went after me because I (do not) belong to <group>"-card is very easy to throw out and get support for, especially if there have been high profile cases where something similar actually did happen.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to take an objective look at the events to see if something else was likely to have transpired.

[kandrathe]

Well, back on topic...

I guess it turns out Micheal Bennett was a bit veracity challenged in the whole racial profiling and being singled out for being black.

That more or less proves my initial point about that incident. The "They went after me because I (do not) belong to <group>"-card is very easy to throw out and get support for, especially if there have been high profile cases where something similar actually did happen.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to take an objective look at the events to see if something else was likely to have transpired.

::nod:: I like the availability of cameras for civilian review to confirm the claimed abuse, or as in this case, exonerate the officers.

A couple months ago I had a headlight go out, I had been putting it off for a couple days. I had set up an appointment at the local garage on the next weekend. My son wanted groceries, so we went to the store, and it was late enough to need headlights. Sure enough, driving through my small nearby town on the way I got lit up. Pulled over, explained I did know, and had an appointment. The officer, checked my license, insurance, etc... Gave me a verbal warning.

>> phew << Continued on our way got the groceries, and not an hour later returning back through town, at almost the exact spot... Lit up again... This time, the officer got to my window, recognized me and we both just laughed. Sometimes, the difference is in your combined attitudes. But, I think had I been black, I might have been more edgy, the officer might be more edgy, and it might not be so hilarious.

[Archon_Wing]

You rarely, if ever, see police oppressing or harassing members of the ruling, exploiting class. Even the military is less reactionary than the police, since historically the military has on certain occasions, gone over to the revolutionary side. Not to mention, that they are more economically conscripted than the police are. I can't think of any historical moment where the police have done this. The same is true in non-revolutionary moments of class struggle, such as a workers strike - the police almost always take the side of the bosses. American cops in particular are bordering on being a terrorist organization, if they aren't one already.

I.....

Shit. Now that I think about it, I can't really think about it when the Police sided with the people.

Also, is this real?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-...7873d96b6e

[kandrathe]

I.....

Shit. Now that I think about it, I can't really think about it when the Police sided with the people.

Also, is this real?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-...7873d96b6e

This is a problem I’ve been calling out. It’s tangentially Philando Castile, or Freddie Grey. Police need better oversight, and when people are killed justice demands to be served.

As it is now in many jurisdictions, the justifiable killing of innocents is an outrage.

That said, it is amplified by WaPo and media beyond proportion. You didn’t read about the death of an innocent family due to head on collision by the 12 times convicted drunk driver, or the 5 people gunned down on the south side in a drug deal gone sideways. Those unnamed victims of everyday senseless crime number into the tens of thousands. Which is why we need the police, why we need the police to do a better job, not add to the body count, and not get distracted by these highly publicized screw ups.

We should hold the screwed uppers accountable of manslaughter, and move along. While it’s a travesty that anyone gets killed, it is the exception. If we punish the screw ups, they will stop, one way or another. Either police will do a better job, or the likely failures will quit the police force, or they wil kill someone and go to jail.

[Alram]

Back off topic.

Hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets of Catalonia’s capital Barcelona on Sunday to express their opposition to declaring independence from Spain, showing how divided the region is on the issue.

A crowd estimated by local police to number 350,000 waved Spanish and Catalan flags and carried banners saying “Catalonia is Spain” and “Together we are stronger”...
Turn-out for the referendum was just 43 percent, with most residents who wish to remain in Spain staying home.

Reuters

Regarding the irregularities in the voting, including people voting multiple times: irregularidades

[kandrathe]

Back off topic.

Hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets of Catalonia’s capital Barcelona on Sunday to express their opposition to declaring independence from Spain, showing how divided the region is on the issue.

A crowd estimated by local police to number 350,000 waved Spanish and Catalan flags and carried banners saying “Catalonia is Spain” and “Together we are stronger”...
Turn-out for the referendum was just 43 percent, with most residents who wish to remain in Spain staying home.

Reuters

Regarding the irregularities in the voting, including people voting multiple times: irregularidades

I’ve heard it was horrendously performed with nearly zero chance for integrity. Imagine if all the separatist Texans held an election, on their personal laptops with no verification of who voted, or how many times. Then, the bulk of the opposition was told by the US government not to participate in the illegal election, so hardly any opposition votes even showed up. One sided non-victory for propaganda value. On the other hand I can understand Catalonia’s anger at being promised autonomy, then having it’s autonomy overruled by Spanish courts.