The establishment vs Uber

[Kevin]

PS. As for the patent thing... I think it's more akin to why many startup dot com's start out as "a great deal" and figure out the profit thing later. It's better to get a billion loyal customers first, then move into asking them for a reasonable price later. Right now for Tesla, they have the Ferrari model. Owning one is a status thing, more than practical. In order for Tesla to sell many more affordable cars, they need more competition to drive down the price. I think what they are looking for is for their technology to become more ubiquitous. You can sell more VHS tapes when most people have VHS players. What would hurt Tesla would be if Ford or Toyota established a standard that made Tesla an odd duck. You'd need to consider not only the higher price of the vehicle, but also the difficulty in finding a compatible charging station, and the higher price for maintenance and repair (just like Ferrari in that regard as well).

I'm continuing the tangent, but that was my first thought too. Telsa released the patents because they need others on board with their system so that the infrastructure gets built out to support it. I think most people realize that is one of the biggest factors holding back electric cars. If you never leave the 100 mile radius around your home, they're great. But people like to take road trips, made possible by pretty much never being more than 50 miles from a fuel station.

So either the basic battery design needs to be able to charge in 5 - 10 minutes off of the current grid with nothing special, just a lot of 120 or 240 outlets and meters to regulate it and charge people. Or lots of parties have to be making things with the current designs that require a fair bit of special infrastructure to charge things quickly to get the number of "fuel" stations that people need.

The same major issue applies to Hydrogen fueling. That actually requires less changes to vehicles, it would actually be possible to retrofit existing vehicles depending on just how you were using the hydrogen, but there are currently 12 hydrogen fueling stations in the country and 10 of those are in California. ( http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/stations_counts.html ).

It's not an impossible hurdle but standardization would certainly make clearing it easier, a lot more entities could get onto the playing field.

Of course if we all just had the jetpacks we were promised would be here 20+ years ago....

[FireIceTalon]

Nope. You have no sources to support you, no construction of logic, and therefore you have expressed only the opinions I already know you to have.

You do know that stating something to be true does not make it so.

1. This is the truth, by it's very nature it is true.
2. The above statement is correct.
3. Therefore, you are wrong.

Things that are self-evident and observable in the real world (note: planet Earth, and not planet Freedonia) do not require a source to be proven once they have been observed. But for all intents and purposes, the bailouts of 2008 alone would prove you wrong, and me correct. And that is just one notable instance. Government takes smaller, much less drastic measures on a DAILY basis to protect and serve the interests of private capital.

I don't need to provide ANY sources that government is not anti-capital, when governments actions, and mere existence, is for the benefits of private capital. I do not need to provide any evidence that American society demonizes and shames the poor - it happens on a daily basis and can be observed in all circles of our society - from the casual discussion of politics in your neighborhood diner to the media. Demonization and the oppression of working class people, minorities, immigrants, and women are engrained in the brutal and bloody fabric that is called American history.

I don't need to provide a source for anything I said in my post anymore than one would needs to provide evidence for the existence of gravity.

My source is history ITSELF. Yours? Ron Paul and your other lolbertarian idols. Unfortunately for you, history has a much, MUCH better track record than pundits who spew ideological talking points as being sufficient evidence to support an empirical observation.

We're not going down the Marxist road. NO! We will NOT divert this into an argument about the merits or nature of Capitalism. Either go make a sign and patrol your block and actually do something about it or accept that this is where we are, so it is what it is.

Translation: I don't want to face the truth, and want to frame the discussion in a way that supports MY worldview and ideology, and don't want any discourse that could be inconvenient to MY privileged, smug position in society. Only discussion within the capitalist narrative is to be on the table, goddamnit!! Yep, typical self-entitled cappie. You guys really are on the same level as Creationists, except in a political/economic/social context instead of a religious one.

You're one of those people who probably walks into any public place and looks down upon and is rude to minimum wage workers because you view them as inferior to yourself, huh? Elitist blokes like you make me sick, and a friendly reminder of why this country sucks ass so much.

I'm one of those deluded fools

Your honesty is noted, and appreciated.

[kandrathe]

I'm continuing the tangent, but that was my first thought too. Telsa released the patents because they need others on board with their system so that the infrastructure gets built out to support it. I think most people realize that is one of the biggest factors holding back electric cars. If you never leave the 100 mile radius around your home, they're great. But people like to take road trips, made possible by pretty much never being more than 50 miles from a fuel station.

So either the basic battery design needs to be able to charge in 5 - 10 minutes off of the current grid with nothing special, just a lot of 120 or 240 outlets and meters to regulate it and charge people. Or lots of parties have to be making things with the current designs that require a fair bit of special infrastructure to charge things quickly to get the number of "fuel" stations that people need.

I like the idea of it working like propane tanks -- so long as you only "rent" them and the loaner("fuel" station) takes responsibility for the value. That way, they can be charging many at once in the back room. The car can drive in, bing, bang, and swap batteries and be off. And, then, I suspect you could also plug it in when you are at home, or at work (perhaps metered or for a fee, or free for the enlightened employer who likes providing tax free benefits.).

---

...is rude to minimum wage workers because you view them as inferior to yourself, huh?

I realize that you actually don't know me at all. Nothing could be further from the truth. Perhaps you are actually looking into your own soul?

My view is that EVERYONE is intrinsically valuable and was at some point someones adored little baby. Everyone.

[FireIceTalon]

I realize that you actually don't know me at all. Nothing could be further from the truth. Perhaps you are actually looking into your own soul?

Is that so? Cause the comment of yours that I quoted was extremely elitist and discriminatory towards working class people; in fact it really reeked of the "blame the victim" narrative that is so predominant in this society. But I am assuming your actions are consistent with your words, perhaps, and hopefully, I am wrong in this instance.

As for me, if I hated working class people and viewed them with the merciless contempt that you did in your comment, it would pretty much revoke my right to being a card carrying communist. More importantly, as a member of the working class, self-loathing would be counter-intuitive to my own objective interests, would it not? You accusing me of what you are guilty of is plain silliness and a desperate attempt to wash your hands of it. Try harder.

And yes, capitalists view workers as valuable alright - so long as workers can work and produce as much value (hours worked and the end product) for as little cost (wages) as possible. Other than that, they are expendable from the pov of the capitalist, and nothing more than bodies used to maximize profits and increase capital accumulation. And this exploitation and objectification of an entire class of people is referred to by its advocates as "freedom" or "voluntary exchange". Yea, right.

[LochnarITB]

I'm continuing the tangent, but that was my first thought too. Telsa released the patents because they need others on board with their system so that the infrastructure gets built out to support it. I think most people realize that is one of the biggest factors holding back electric cars. If you never leave the 100 mile radius around your home, they're great. But people like to take road trips, made possible by pretty much never being more than 50 miles from a fuel station.

So either the basic battery design needs to be able to charge in 5 - 10 minutes off of the current grid with nothing special, just a lot of 120 or 240 outlets and meters to regulate it and charge people. Or lots of parties have to be making things with the current designs that require a fair bit of special infrastructure to charge things quickly to get the number of "fuel" stations that people need.

For a long time, I've thought that the best way to integrate electric vehicles with our current infrastructure is to build series hybrids, extended range electric vehicles. An electric vehicle that can be charged off the power grid for all the short range driving that everyone does ever day. All motive force is provided by electric motors acting as motor and transmission and providing regenerative braking. For extended range, the gas/diesel engine is constant speed, running only at its absolute best efficiency, without any mechanical connection to the drive train and only spinning a generator to feed the battery bank. The motor for the generator could even be something less conventional such as a turbine. Photovoltaics could extend the range even further.

Fossil fuels are still going to be with us for a very long time. For now, what we need is to get the most we can out of our finite supply.

[Hammerskjold]

There's some interesting talks regarding E-Car and battery tech, which I want to reply to proper like, but right now. Let's go over some comedic highlights from this thread.

Eff to the Eye to the Tee, dropped some knowledge on you ignorant fools:

At the end of the day, who cares really, where my politics lie?

Then he dropped some more free style rhymes, not that great actually mostly Lorem Ipsum filler text , no wait, EFF THAT NOISE! Someone mentioned Tarantino? Let's Samuel L Muthah Fu...SHUT YOUR MOUTH! But I'm talkin about Sam Jackson! I can dig it! http://slipsum.com/

(You are now reading the paragraph below, in a Samuel L Jacksonian voice.)

You think water moves fast? You should see ice. It moves like it has a mind. Like it knows it killed the world once and got a taste for murder. After the avalanche, it took us a week to climb out. Now, I don't know exactly when we turned on each other, but I know that seven of us survived the slide... and only five made it out. Now we took an oath, that I'm breaking now. We said we'd say it was the snow that killed the other two, but it wasn't. Nature is lethal but it doesn't hold a candle to man.

Your bones don't break, mine do. That's clear. Your cells react to bacteria and viruses differently than mine. You don't get sick, I do. That's also clear. But for some reason, you and I react the exact same way to water. We swallow it too fast, we choke. We get some in our lungs, we drown. However unreal it may seem, we are connected, you and I. We're on the same curve, just on opposite ends.

Then it picks up again, ready the replay cam, BOOM SHAKAKLAKA!

.....it would pretty much revoke my right to being a card carrying communist.

Wait, there's still s'mores?

I don't need to provide a source for anything I said in my post anymore than one would needs to provide evidence for the existence of gravity.

My source is history ITSELF

I don't want to face the truth, and want to frame the discussion in a way that supports MY worldview and ideology

......

[kandrathe]

Is that so? Cause the comment of yours that I quoted was extremely elitist and discriminatory towards working class people;

You are referring to the statement I made where I wasn't interested so much in the government protecting ME from my own stupid mistakes?

You amaze me with your superpowers of comprehension and your abilities to over reach, reading into sentences concepts perpendicular to the original meaning. It's part and parcel of our different dictionaries having the same words, but different definitions.

I guess if I said, "I'm not hungry" -- this would mean to you I'm in favor of allowing masses of people starve around the world?

[Hammerskjold]

A bit chronologically out of order, but I want to get this out of the way first, so we can get to the juicy interesting stuff, maybe with less of a Martian Methodist Messiah distraction. As hilarious as that is.

But, we're not asking. The reality is we do have a free enterprise system, and we do have semi-democratically elected government and you DO need to go to dinner with them. What then? I'd say we get it all in writing in advance. But, yes, we really DO need to get busy and start doing the dinners.

'We' (as in citizens, joe jane q public) do get asked to pick up the tab, in one way or another, in a sly nudge nudge wink wink kind of way. The hyperloop Cancon edition article you linked, mentions that the CEO is trying to attract govt investors as well. Then again if I was the CEO I'd do the same thing.

Anyhow, what happens when an agreement\contract is not even worth the paper it's written on, even in advance, ROFLcopter, that's even assuming there was one.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorial...plant.html

My bet is we still haven't even scraped the barrel just yet.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/..._jets.html

Hope of hopes, the whiz kids who dreamed up this outsourcing everything to the max, will be outsourced themselves in the next election cycle.

Now in the general concept however, I'm quite on the same page with you that ideally, gov't and business can have a win\win relationship.

However if it isn't working out, we might consider the option of not playing, at least this particular round. (I don't mean skipping out on taxes. Had to write that for the literally minded among us.)

While it can be satisfying to yell 'gov't is -them-'. 'Evil MegaCorps is -them-'. The tab will still be on -you-. And me. And possibly Dupree. But eff Dupree, he always stiffs his share of the tip.

So, what do I mean? Well, like NASA. I don't know if going to the moon was worth it really, but it is a good example of how leadership can rally the nation to do something productive (as opposed to the other thing, like wars).

I do think there might still be a window to address climate change, as our 'Moonshot' project. But it's a window that might be, rapidly closing.

If or when that window closes, well there's always war like you rightly pointed out. Wars can also bring about massive technological advancement. But at horrid costs. Unless, it's outsourced. Then go get em boys!

Re: Tesla Motors.

Sexy sells.

Yep. We definitely agree on that.

Even if Tesla goes kaput this very second, it would still earn it's place in history for breaking the 'glorified golf cart' mold.

I'd rather not see Tesla keel over, despite some of my critique. I don't want to see Tesla Motor, added to the names of Tucker, Delorean, and Bricklin. The auto industry, is becoming too much of a concentrated monopoly, and badly needs a shot (of competition, stat!) to it's heart, or it's too late.

I like the idea of it working like propane tanks -- so long as you only "rent" them and the loaner("fuel" station) takes responsibility for the value. That way, they can be charging many at once in the back room. The car can drive in, bing, bang, and swap batteries and be off.

While the analogy and concept is not bad, I think it starts breaking down when we start talking about just how will the "bing, bang, swap batteries and be off" actually work.

Right now diesel, and gasoline liquid fuels doesn't need a standard size tank, only standardized nozzles and port. Propane tanks are at least standardized somewhat.

As Lochnar and Kevin have correctly pointed out, batteries tech and recharging infrastructure is a big challenge at the moment.

Current battery tech and setup of E-Cars, seems closer to cellphone batteries. While some are semi standardized within it's own brand\models, most are not always interchangeable between different brands. Even within a brand, some models can differ.

Either a revolutionary new energy storage is needed (what's the word on hyper-capacitors and fuel cells, seems kinda worryingly quiet at the moment), a hybridization of engine \motor types and fuels. A new electrical infrastructure standard that all manufacturers agree to, and or all of the above.

Because otherwise this thing will have a real tough time getting started. Most people will find it too much of a hassle if they need to find a specific battery quick swap station that caters only to a specific brand. With current refuelling stations, all you have to worry about is gasoline, or diesel, and possibly propane.

It's one thing to have a Ferrari type business model, where an oil change and a brake job can only be done at the Ferrari factory\dealership etc. That's fine for the crowd who can afford Ferrari. But my bet is, that's not where the next big major change is going to be.

E-Car as a high performance luxury sports car, was one hurdle cleared. There's still others. E-Trucks. E-jeeps. Affordable E-compacts. E-Vespa. E-crotch rockets bikes. I want em all. I want em soon. And I want my promised jet packs dammit!111

[kandrathe]

'We' (as in citizens, joe jane q public) do get asked to pick up the tab, in one way or another, in a sly nudge nudge wink wink kind of way. The hyperloop Cancon edition article you linked, mentions that the CEO is trying to attract govt investors as well. Then again if I was the CEO I'd do the same thing.

Anyhow, what happens when an agreement\contract is not even worth the paper it's written on, even in advance, ROFLcopter, that's even assuming there was one.

We're still going to see lawsuits, and unscrupulous players on either side. No changes there I'm afraid.

Hope of hopes, the whiz kids who dreamed up this outsourcing everything to the max, will be outsourced themselves in the next election cycle.

We agree in part I suspect. I think having standing armies leads to more conflicts (it's too easy to use them when they're sitting around waiting for a skirmish), and a worse scenario would be to outsource our fights to mercenaries. Imagine a world where large private armies are ready to go whenever they're paid, and to do whatever they're hired to do. It's already happening in a smaller way. There are some things that are integral to government that you really want government to be held accountable for, like armies, regulatory oversight, and anything you want to keep secret (e.g. Snowden).

Now in the general concept however, I'm quite on the same page with you that ideally, gov't and business can have a win\win relationship.

However if it isn't working out, we might consider the option of not playing, at least this particular round. (I don't mean skipping out on taxes. Had to write that for the literally minded among us.)

While it can be satisfying to yell 'gov't is -them-'. 'Evil MegaCorps is -them-'. The tab will still be on -you-. And me. And possibly Dupree. But eff Dupree, he always stiffs his share of the tip.

I think we agree here too. Joe taxpayer doesn't get line item veto, so we really just need to Hope™ our elected politicians are good deal makers on our behalf.

What I'd hope to avoid are the cases where gov't just ends up subsidizing private enterprises in perpetuity, or where gov't just builds an agency that could be replaced by a private function in perpetuity.

I do think there might still be a window to address climate change, as our 'Moonshot' project. But it's a window that might be, rapidly closing.

If or when that window closes, well there's always war like you rightly pointed out. Wars can also bring about massive technological advancement. But at horrid costs. Unless, it's outsourced. Then go get em boys!

I believe we'll see that Nature has a way of pushing us back onto the rails. I think there are good reasons why we have the climate we do have within a slim range of variation. It might just be that the likely scenario is that nature kills us off, or tries really hard to do so.

As Lochnar and Kevin have correctly pointed out, batteries tech and recharging infrastructure is a big challenge at the moment.

So, well, yes. Here is an area where some targeted research money, and tax incentives would be a "good" investment for the society at large. The private sector needs help to offset a large cost to make the new infrastructure available. Joe gas station owner is hard pressed to maintain a gasoline delivery infrastructure -- how do we convince them to offer the new infrastructure. Also, this is somewhat chicken and egg problem -- there will be some time when there are not enough customers to sustain a refueling center.

Refer back to the above; What I'd hope to avoid are the cases where gov't just ends up subsidizing private enterprises in perpetuity, or where gov't just builds an agency that could be replaced by a private function in perpetuity.

The timing needs to be right, and we need to not do what happened with ethanol (back the wrong solution). Average consumers, like me, cannot afford the e-car Ferrari edition. I need the sticker price to be closer to the gasoline engine, and I would also want the refueling infrastructure to be in place (at least within my metropolitan area). Here in MN, as it is there in Canada, reliable transportation is a necessity, where an unreliable vehicle that has run out of juice can be deadly when it's -20F.

What I see is that vision of this future, leadership to get there, and a good sell to the public are required. Then a rational plan can be formed that is shared with the whole of society. Hopefully, one that we can get behind, and move towards. Before we are killed by violent storms.

[kandrathe]

Here is an article in the New Yorker documenting New Yorks underground gray market transportation network. They serve poor and immigrant neighborhoods, but face regulatory hurdles in offering an affordable service if done in the light.