what do Americans think about the NSA scandal

[eppie]

Can anyone tell me what the sentiment among the American people is regarding this NSA spy scandal?
There are large parts of the population that downright hate barrack Obama because he dares to give health insurance to everyone, and that is to much intrusion in people's lives, so I guess especially republicans are outraged now?
I mean this current spying on citizens is a few steps worse than the government telling you you can't wear your automatic rifle to school.

(I made a comment in another thread but I find this subject is important enough to gets its own thread)

To add to this thread:
also herein the Netherlands our AIVD (dutch NSA) is doing similar things, though on a smaller scale, and not with so much freedom but also here there is not yet real public outrage. A few political parties complain, but it is not the same outrage that flows over the country as when for example a humpback whale gets stranded and they don't manage to pull him back to open sea. (yes this is sarcasm).
I think there are just many things that are much too complicated for normal people to even get angry or upset about, or there is a general numbness when such things happen.......I mean I also haven't gone protesting yet. These are things you know are trampling your rights, but because you don't see a direct threat to your personal situation you tend to care not so much.

And this is the exact thing mentioned in other threads about thinking you live in a democracy as compared to the people in Cuba for example, but actually your liberties are taken away in a more subtle way.

The whole situation becomes even more clear if you see that the US security agencies just discard information from the Russians about the brothers who committed the Boston attacks.......apparently anti terrorism is not the reason for spying on us.

[shoju]

You have people who are outraged. And it's not just Republicans. It's people on the extremes of both sides.

Personally? I'm not surprised, I'm not outraged. The NSA is a really bizarre shadowy type thing. I once considered applying to work there, but just couldn't reconcile it with my conscience.

I'm sure, you are going to hear opinions from both sides of it here that will show you that people are really outraged. It all goes back to ideologies. We should be working to protect ourselves, and our technological freedoms, but we're really caught up in trying to make sure we can carry our guns, and what not.

[kandrathe]

Can anyone tell me what the sentiment among the American people is regarding this NSA spy scandal?

Well, is he a spy? Or, is he a whistle blower? I would posit that he may have revealed crimes against the country committed by the NSA in violation of the 4th amendment -- (The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.)

However, Snowden is also in violation of whatever "contracts" he signed to get his security clearance, and he is guilty of affecting the integrity of his employer. For those "crimes", he should be held accountable. Did he pass sensitive material to the enemy? No, since Glenn Greenwald is an American Journalist. He passed the proof of the existence of government programs that violate our laws to the press.

There are large parts of the population that downright hate Barrack Obama because he dares to give health insurance to everyone, and that is to much intrusion in people's lives, so I guess especially republicans are outraged now?

Not withstanding that Barrak Obama lacks the personal funding to give people anything. What he and his supporters want, is to give away what they don't have the means to give. So, therefore they then need to use the force of government to take away the earnings of people so as to then redistribute in the way they see is proper. What I object to in the Health Insurance debate is that what they did do is the worst of all possible choices. Had they merely taken over all health insurance as a government function, it would have been better than what they enacted -- which is another government layer of bureaucracy, between patients and doctors. What they are doing will increase the costs of health insurance by between 40% and 100% depending on the plan. What they will do is force more people to opt out of getting health insurance, and pay the IRS a fine. The boon is either to big pharma, or big health care, or to government. The losers are the people who want affordable health insurance. In classic Orwellian double speak, "The Affordable Care Act" - is neither.

I mean this current spying on citizens is a few steps worse than the government telling you you can't wear your automatic rifle to school.

But, the Federal government can not tell you not to bring your gun to schools. The schools do have some autonomy to regulate themselves, however more and more that is being taken over at the State level. FYI -- I learned to shoot pistols at my public high school in the 7th grade. I learned to shoot long guns at age 13 in a 6 week summer course offered by the NRA, before my first trip hunting in the wilds of Northern Minnesota. But, I know the concept of wild spaces is hard to fathom for Netherlanders. Everything there seems like a well kept garden.

(I made a comment in another thread but I find this subject is important enough to gets its own thread)

To add to this thread:
also herein the Netherlands our AIVD (dutch NSA) is doing similar things, though on a smaller scale, and not with so much freedom but also here there is not yet real public outrage. A few political parties complain, but it is not the same outrage that flows over the country as when for example a humpback whale gets stranded and they don't manage to pull him back to open sea. (yes this is sarcasm).

I was pretty mad this morning when I heard on the news a woman saying the NSA data mining was ok, since companies like VISA are collecting much more. I was thinking, but.. but.. I voluntarily have a contract with VISA for them to provide me with services, and VISA doesn't have the power to kick down my door when I don't pay the bill. If either VISA, or I feel the other has violated the contract we can go our own ways, or seek recompense through civil litigation. I can't opt out of governance. Trust me... Some days I wish... Personally, I'm not sure which makes me more upset; that my government is **%^%^ing me, or that I'm also forced to pay for it.

I think there are just many things that are much too complicated for normal people to even get angry or upset about, or there is a general numbness when such things happen.......I mean I also haven't gone protesting yet. These are things you know are trampling your rights, but because you don't see a direct threat to your personal situation you tend to care not so much.

It's just starting. I think the *real* issue with legs here will be the damage that has been done to Google, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, etc. There really will be economic harm done to these companies when people are loath to participate if they believe all their private information will end up being analyzed on a government run zeta byte server farm in Utah, ready to be used against you at whim. It is in a way no different than what they done to air travel. You are free to fly, if you don't mind having your rights violated (of such parochial concepts, such as being treated as innocent until proven guilty). You are free to purchase things, however, try buying 12 pressure cookers, or a bunch of grow lights and see how long it takes before the jack booted thugs kick in your door. You are free to use a phone, or the Internet, but just know that everything you do is being watched and recorded.

"The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but that it was impossible to avoid joining in." -- Orwell, 1984

We gotta get them [s] Ruskies [\s] Terrorists. (Aw, shoot. I thought we had strike through tags.) You must watch the 24/7 propaganda show -- but, the government is now beginning the lose the 4th estate (who bought into the Obama administration with a tingle down their legs.) They organized against Bush, and rallied against the Republican control freaks until their guy was elected. Obama doubled down on drones, and domestic spying, and going after prosecuting the press in whistle blowing cases. So, the once clarion bells of war propaganda now ring hollow. The veil of decency is shredded. To stand by it now just makes you into a bigger liar.

And this is the exact thing mentioned in other threads about thinking you live in a democracy as compared to the people in Cuba for example, but actually your liberties are taken away in a more subtle way.

We have boiled the frogs by slowly turning up the heat.

The whole situation becomes even more clear if you see that the US security agencies just discard information from the Russians about the brothers who committed the Boston attacks.......apparently anti terrorism is not the reason for spying on us.

DING! Eppie wins for seeing the big picture. Security theater is about making the government bigger and more powerful, but not about rooting out the element that justifies their existence. That would be counter-productive. The last thing the military industrial complex wants is the end of hostilities.

Peace is just bad for business.

[FireIceTalon]

I am not surprised really. If you ask me, this is de facto action by the state which generally takes such measures when the capitalist system hits a crisis. The only difference between now and any previous time is that the technology is much more advanced, so they have more ways to keep tabs on citizens. But at the same time, we also tend to know more and faster what they are doing. Since government has explicitly shown they have always held allegiance to and cooperation with the capitalist system and thus by default big corporations, it seems to me this is just another step in the process of fascism to protect the capitalists interests. After all, the greater the power, the greater the paranoia - actions such as this seem inevitable when you are really good at pissing a lot of people (in particular working people) off by putting unpopular wars on credit cards and expanding policies of austerity. When capitalism is fine, its business as usual. But when it is in crisis, like it is now, the capitalists and their state apparatus get nervous, and things like this are the result. The paranoia in this uncanny. Anti-terrorism is the means to "justify" this, not the ends. It has almost nothing to do with anti-terrorism at all. Stalin used socialism as a vehicle in the same way for justifying his own power, not because he had any vestiges in actually building socialism. Same with Hitler and the concept of nationalism and German pride.

What does surprise me is that there seems to be a general outrage, yet no protests of any kind have taken place to my knowledge.

[LochnarITB]

My only surprise is that people are surprised! This isn't about the Obama administration. I firmly believe this crap was happening before Obama, to whatever degree then current technology allowed, and will go on long after. What's in front of you folks? You're online! You're on the grid! Make whatever peace you can with it.

[kandrathe]

... Stalin used socialism as a vehicle in the same way for justifying his own power, not because he had any vestiges in actually building socialism. Same with Hitler and the concept of nationalism and German pride. ...

Well, except for all the ways that the world is not like Europe in the mid 1920's.

More likely, I would say, that totalitarianism is the de facto lazy model of governance. It requires the least maintenance to be a sheep, and to let others fight over being the shepherds. It does not require your electorate to be educated. We are all too ready to surrender the responsibility of decision making to good orators, and sloganeering.

If you believe in entropy, then unless there is a consistent effort to renew your democratic institutions, all roads lead to serfdom.

[Taem]

My main concern is the US moving one step closer to a police state with every new president starting with Bush Sr. and his control of the news agencies, then of course Jr. with Homeland Security and the wire tapping bit, and now with the ever smiling, always "shocked", "surprised", and "outraged" guy we currently have, as if he does not have a clue what his own country is doing... It scares me to think someone can report you in the future for a crime you did not commit, but with all the red tape and paranoia, you end up serving five years for doing nothing.

EDIT:
I'd like to add that this is a real concern and I'll explain why: one of my friends has a boyfriend with a permanent resident card from Mexico he received over a decade ago. He got in a fist fight with someone about three years back and was charged with felony assault because he went with a public defender instead of trying to fight it and the defender told him to just take the charge and plea out. Recently, someone who does not like him called ICE and told them he was a felon on the run that needed to be deported. ICE went to pick him up at his home and took him to a secure complex ran by Homeland Security. There, they kept him locked up without any rights telling him they would deport him and while locked up, he found out some of the people in there had been held in that detention center for over ten-months without trial or extradition. So his current wife got a hold of a lawyer and (after several thousand dollars) got the lawyer to get a lower-circuit judge to issue an order to release him from captivity, but the lawyer also told her that these detention centers get paid $1,700 a week to hold prisoners. The judge and lawyer said he'd be out by Wednesday, but the detention center said they did not have the papers and kept him over till Monday instead (trying to squeeze out and extra $1,700?) before releasing him.

So he wasn't a citizen, but did have a legal right to be here from his permanent resident card. He did have a felony on his record, but already served his time. What gives our government the right to hold him indefinitely? How could they react so unjustly on just a tip without doing any real investigation? When will they start doing this to US citizens, holding them in detention centers not located in America so they don't have to charge them with any crimes? I got chills when my friend and her boyfriend told me this story and showed me their lawyers papers. This is what I'm afraid of, and a direction I'd fear our country is going.

[Taem]

The whole situation becomes even more clear if you see that the US security agencies just discard information from the Russians about the brothers who committed the Boston attacks.......apparently anti terrorism is not the reason for spying on us.

I don't believe this is the case. I think there is just a lot of miscommunication going on. To many hands in the cookie jar, not enough communication or structure to get things done effectively. And situations like the post I made above this one happen because of this. We need more oversight into this "secret" data. It's like what they said on the news today, "You need to take care of what's secret and what isn't because when everything is secret, nothing is."

[shoju]

Because we haven't already done that to American Citizens?

Interment Camps.

Yeah. Been there, done that, with our own american citizens. We didn't even have the balls to hide it in another country. We just rounded them up like cattle and sent them off during WWII because they "looked" and were from the same region as our enemies.

[eppie]

My only surprise is that people are surprised! This isn't about the Obama administration. I firmly believe this crap was happening before Obama, to whatever degree then current technology allowed, and will go on long after. What's in front of you folks? You're online! You're on the grid! Make whatever peace you can with it.

Yeah, you are of course right about this. Anything that is technologically possible will be done.
But of course, let the public be a man about this and just say we can just as well burn the constitution. Why bother people who download a few movies if a government is allowed to download all our personal stuff?
(I would like to hear a judge's opinion about that)

[kandrathe]

Ah, well, the Net. Yes, but since the early 80's it's been illegal (via the Secret Service) to hack other peoples computers. But, our government can do it to us -- and order companies to do it to us without cause. I gotta stop yelling at my kids for installing that spyware, when all along it's been the NSA. So... back to scrolls, wax seals and signet rings then... Good enough. I must look into some reliable carrier pigeons. The good part is the lack of SPAM. The bad part is the bird crap.

[Hammerskjold]

Why bother people who download a few movies if a government is allowed to download all our personal stuff?
(I would like to hear a judge's opinion about that)

As for asking a judge, while a legal opinion would certainly be interesting. I think I'd also ask the younger generation what they think.

Looking at some of their actions, I think I find it more chilling that some of the answers I've heard regarding privacy, the concept of privacy, (online and meat-space) is basically, "...what's privacy?"


http://www.theonion.com/video/cias-faceb...cos,19753/

[kandrathe]

Why bother people who download a few movies if a government is allowed to download all our personal stuff?
(I would like to hear a judge's opinion about that)

As for asking a judge, while a legal opinion would certainly be interesting. I think I'd also ask the younger generation what they think.

Looking at some of their actions, I think I find it more chilling that some of the answers I've heard regarding privacy, the concept of privacy, (online and meat-space) is basically, "...what's privacy?"


http://www.theonion.com/video/cias-faceb...cos,19753/

FRANK LEWIS!!!

[Hammerskjold]

Why bother people who download a few movies if a government is allowed to download all our personal stuff?
(I would like to hear a judge's opinion about that)

As for asking a judge, while a legal opinion would certainly be interesting. I think I'd also ask the younger generation what they think.

Looking at some of their actions, I think I find it more chilling that some of the answers I've heard regarding privacy, the concept of privacy, (online and meat-space) is basically, "...what's privacy?"


http://www.theonion.com/video/cias-faceb...cos,19753/

FRANK LEWIS!!!

He seems ok. That pic is probably from a Halloween party where he dressed up as 'The Matrix' character. And 'Agent' is probably just a nickname, he's probably a fan of said movie.

I would have no problem adding him. But I'm not listed in the Book of Faces though. What...why are you looking at me like that. I'm not on FBook. No, really. I, am not, on Facebook.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEStsLJZhzo

[eppie]

I don't believe this is the case. I think there is just a lot of miscommunication going on. To many hands in the cookie jar, not enough communication or structure to get things done effectively. And situations like the post I made above this one happen because of this. We need more oversight into this "secret" data. It's like what they said on the news today, "You need to take care of what's secret and what isn't because when everything is secret, nothing is."

Well that is what I mean. You can't use the ' it is for our safety against terrorists' argument if you don't take your information seriously in the first place.

[Lissa]

My only surprise is that people are surprised! This isn't about the Obama administration. I firmly believe this crap was happening before Obama, to whatever degree then current technology allowed, and will go on long after. What's in front of you folks? You're online! You're on the grid! Make whatever peace you can with it.

It has been. I know of atleast two instances from the mid-90s that show this was happening.

First, someone I knew in Tucson went to a symposium by Vinton Cerf in Tucson and Vinton nonchelantly noted that all internet email, at that time, was going through a central server at Crystal Palace (AFB in Nebraska) and said that he could search any emails sent that day and then said something to the effect, "let's see who's sent emails about me today," then performed a quick search on his laptop and pulled up 35 emails that had gone through the server that day.

Second, someone I worked with at Intuit in Tucson knew a sys admin at a university in Sweden and had gotten an account on one of the university's system. He sent two emails from the account in Sweden to his email account in the US. The emails, really the same email, had the subject of "Russian Paratrooper movement along Finish border" and then a bunch of random garbage in the main body. The first email was sent unencrypted and arrived less than a minute later in his mailbox in the US. The second email was encrypted with PGP and sent. It took 7 hours for the encrypted email to arrive.

So, this has been going on for almost 20 years in some way or another, it's just got more sophisticated.

[shoju]

And another thing.

I don't honestly believe that the president is briefed on every single thing that the ATF, FBI, CIA, DEA, NSA, USMC, USN, USAF, USNG, USA, etc... are doing every minute of every second of every Day.

Seriously. If you believe that the president knows every single thing that happens, you are giving one man WAY too much credit. If he were briefed on everything, he would have time to do nothing else. He would be briefed around the clock, 7 days a week.

[Bolty]

It's just starting. I think the *real* issue with legs here will be the damage that has been done to Google, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, etc.

And the Lurker Lounge! Maybe you missed that part of the leak. The NSA approached me years ago and put software on this server to monitor the hippies, communists, Tea Party activists, conspiracy theorists, and fringe elements this site attracts.

Anyway, to the point, the only thing that surprises me is that people are surprised. I think the majority of Americans just figured that this couldn't or wouldn't be done, while anyone with a technical background likely expected this from the start because it's not hard to do if you have the resources. And the government has the resources...

I delight in the irony of how the US doesn't want to give up general control of the Internet because "us GOOD, them BAD" - and of course the US is the worst of them all.

[eppie]

And the Lurker Lounge! Maybe you missed that part of the leak. The NSA approached me years ago and put software on this server to monitor the hippies, communists, Tea Party activists, conspiracy theorists, and fringe elements this site attracts.

So you knew??? And you didn't say anything???

[kandrathe]

Anyway, to the point, the only thing that surprises me is that people are surprised. I think the majority of Americans just figured that this couldn't or wouldn't be done, while anyone with a technical background likely expected this from the start because it's not hard to do if you have the resources. And the government has the resources...

I figured that they were watching ME. Mostly due to my vast internationalization and known associates. I was even stopped once by Swedish government agents who thought I might be smuggling butter in from Norway.

But, I didn't think they'd be watching everyone.

I've been wearing the tinfoil hat for over a decade since they "claimed" Trailblazer "It ran over budget, failed to accomplish critical goals, and was cancelled."

::nod:: >>wink<<

Treadstone? No, no, that was a trial project that we've cancelled. Now, about Blackbriar...