Help! Question about guns!

[Taem]

I'm currently developing a pen-and-paper gaming system and, since I've never owned a gun before in my life, have some questions about guns I could not find anywhere else, and I thought, what better place to come then the Lounge?

1) Gun Laws: is it legal to include the actual, non-fictional name of guns in a book or game, such as Beretta m93r 9mm, as opposed to Handgun?

2) I'm having a LOT of difficulty understanding the damage guns inflict. I got that they are rated either by caliber in America or millimeter everywhere else, and that the greater that number, the more damage is generally inflicted, however from what I've read so far, bullet speed is also a factor, sometimes trumping caliber. I'm trying to make a rating system on damage effectiveness with categories of Small, Medium, and Large with a possible X-Large for guns that don't fit (such as an Elephant Gun).

I was really shocked that Assault rifles generally use 9mm but cause so much damage; I assumed (incorrectly) that they used a bigger bullet. Anyways, so far I have the listing broken into mm (I had to convert all caliber to mm), and I can't remember the specifics because I'm not at home to look at my doc, but I think it was .1 to .29 cal or lower is small, .2 to .39 cal is medium, and .4 to .5-.59 cal is large, regardless of the type of gun used. This makes some handguns as powerful as some beast looking machine guns. Taking out the automatic firing, is this true, or am I so far off base, I might as well hang myself now? (note: I'm only using cal here becuase I can't remember what MM I changed the cal to; also, this assumes that a cal of .5 to .59 at LARGE is one of the most damaging there is for domestic use guns and damage inflicted in regards to lethality).



The more I read about guns, the more fascinating they become. I never knew there were so many purpose guns, all with different functions. The range, power, caliber (mm), length of the tube all play an important factor, as does the weight, recoil, and reload. It's not as easy to make this chart as I assumed it would be, that's for sure... I thank everyone for their responses ahead of time.

[NuurAbSaal]

Hm, I don't have much to contribute, but without factoring in ammunition your endeavour seems tricky, if not outright pointless (think hollow-point vs. full metal jacket or buckshot). "Damage effectiveness" might also not be enough of a classification. Are your guns only fired at humanoids or would they be employed against vehicles or structures? Distance(s) to target? It really gets complicated fast.

Oh my, what a helpful post .

take care
Tarabulus

[LochnarITB]

Wow, damage is a huge question. Billions of dollars go into researching such things so I doubt you'll get any simple answer. However, you are correct in that speed is more important than size (caliber). Speed is developed by the pressure generated by burning gun powder (as I'm sure you know) so the casing, which holds the powder as it burns and clamps the bullet in until the pressure is high enough to push the bullet out, is far more important to the result. Look up a .22 caliber and a .223 caliber. The caliber is similar enough that any real engineer would say "close enough to be the same" but look at the casings and the energy developed along with the applications they are each used for.

You also seem to be missing another complicated class of gun, the shotgun. They are measured in gauge and also vary widely based on the load, consisting of different amounts of powder and projectile (slug or BBs).

A couple things to start with would be these pieces about energies, muzzle energy and an energy calculator. Even energies aren't the answer because the energies have to be delivered and that varies with the construction of the projectile (hollow point, copper jacketed, etc.).

Have fun.

[shoju]

I'm currently developing a pen-and-paper gaming system and, since I've never owned a gun before in my life, have some questions about guns I could not find anywhere else, and I thought, what better place to come then the Lounge?

1) Gun Laws: is it legal to include the actual, non-fictional name of guns in a book or game, such as Beretta m93r 9mm, as opposed to Handgun?

You can include some information. I'm not sure about manufacturer names (Beretta, Sig, Smith & Wesson, etc...) but you can definitely include calibers (9mm, .45 cal, 40, .357, etc...) without it being a problem.

I know my favorite PnP game includes some names to things, but it is set in the West, so I'm sure there are some differences there.

2) I'm having a LOT of difficulty understanding the damage guns inflict. I got that they are rated either by caliber in America or millimeter everywhere else, and that the greater that number, the more damage is generally inflicted, however from what I've read so far, bullet speed is also a factor, sometimes trumping caliber. I'm trying to make a rating system on damage effectiveness with categories of Small, Medium, and Large with a possible X-Large for guns that don't fit (such as an Elephant Gun).

I was really shocked that Assault rifles generally use 9mm but cause so much damage; I assumed (incorrectly) that they used a bigger bullet. Anyways, so far I have the listing broken into mm (I had to convert all caliber to mm), and I can't remember the specifics because I'm not at home to look at my doc, but I think it was .1 to .29 cal or lower is small, .2 to .39 cal is medium, and .4 to .5-.59 cal is large, regardless of the type of gun used. This makes some handguns as powerful as some beast looking machine guns. Taking out the automatic firing, is this true, or am I so far off base, I might as well hang myself now? (note: I'm only using cal here becuase I can't remember what MM I changed the cal to; also, this assumes that a cal of .5 to .59 at LARGE is one of the most damaging there is for domestic use guns and damage inflicted in regards to lethality).

Well, I guess it's all in what you are looking for. Yes, a lot of tactical weapons use 9mm ammunition. It is a pretty awesome ammunition.

Your chart seems reasonable, but there are other things to consider.

Getting shot in the head, with a .22 caliber rifle, is probably still going to kill you, just as much as taking an AR15 Machine Gun round to the head. It's just about the viciousness of the wound at that point.

Getting shot in the arm however, both will leave your arm rather(fairly) useless, but an AR15 will have a greater chance of separating arm from torso

The more I read about guns, the more fascinating they become. I never knew there were so many purpose guns, all with different functions. The range, power, caliber (mm), length of the tube all play an important factor, as does the weight, recoil, and reload. It's not as easy to make this chart as I assumed it would be, that's for sure... I thank everyone for their responses ahead of time.

I love guns. Not because I'm some cowboy American, but to me, they are a beautiful piece of science, and a fascinating study in physics, all coiled up in this beautifullly destructive package. I have a WWII .32 caliber Officer's Sidearm that I inherited, and it is by far the nicest handgun I've ever fired. I've owned several handguns, but nothing "does it" for me, the way this one does.

I also own several shotguns, but they are more of just a "hunting" thing. I'm not really interested in taking those to the range and wasting time. (might also be that the .32 ammo is so cheap)

If I were going to make a chart for a PnP game, I think you are on the right track, but you may want to consider some sort of "called shot" and or "range" mechanics, and that would give you some fun things to do with muzzle velocity, projectile speed, scatter patterns. You could do it all with relative ease as well.

[Nystul]

This makes some handguns as powerful as some beast looking machine guns. Taking out the automatic firing, is this true, or am I so far off base, I might as well hang myself now? (note: I'm only using cal here becuase I can't remember what MM I changed the cal to; also, this assumes that a cal of .5 to .59 at LARGE is one of the most damaging there is for domestic use guns and damage inflicted in regards to lethality).

They are both likely to kill a guy at close range as far as that goes. My take on "damage" is that if you are going to take a shot you better hope it's from a bb gun or a paint ball. A 9mm is plenty big enough to mess someone up and a small caliber could be big trouble if it hits something important. A rifle has more projectile velocity meaning much greater range than a handgun. But with the automatic weapons the range isn't really the point nor are they designed for it. Having a big clip and high rate of fire is everything in a heavy combat type of situation.

[Chesspiece_face]

There are a lot of things that go into the damage a firearm can do above and beyond simple caliber or millimeter although those are good general basics to start with.

To get a real understanding of what damage a firearm could do you not only need to know the caliber/mm size barrel the weapon has but what individual ammunition you are using in the weapon. Full/Total metal jacket = Greater piercing damage through armor while Soft Tip or Hollow Point = Greater damage to unarmored targets.

Range to target is also a big factor in many standardized cartridges. A standard 5.56x45 NATO cartridge, which is the preeminent cartridge in NATO assault rifles has particular issues when related to muzzle velocity and length down range leading it to not achieve the required velocity for fragmentation. This leads it to produce less than optimal damage in many situations, creating wounds instead of kills.

There are a ton of factors that can be analyzed depending on how deep you really want to go with your systems.

[Taem]

If I were going to make a chart for a PnP game, I think you are on the right track, but you may want to consider some sort of "called shot" and or "range" mechanics, and that would give you some fun things to do with muzzle velocity, projectile speed, scatter patterns. You could do it all with relative ease as well.

Thanks for the input, from everyone, but I choose you to respond to first. I spent the last two night up till 2am (no kidding) researching this stuff, and I was so fascinated, I just didn't want to stop reading, but I knew I had to work the next day so I forced myself to go to bed, lol, but I still couldn't stop thinking about it, and all morning.

RE: Shotgun; I have the shotgun's maximum efficiency (range) at 50-meters and dropping in size category for every 1--meters past the initial 10-meters. Shotguns are interesting animals doing massive damage at close range, but quickly loosing kinetic energy. The would be an ideal choice, IMO, for swat teams having to enter close quarters and not knowing where their targets are. I definitively have plans for damage with projectile speed and type of bullet, i.e. hallow point vs. slug.

Here's an image of the part of the chart I'm currently working on. It's still very unfinished. I foolishly though the item section would be the easiest so I saved it for last, but it's turning out the be the most difficult of the entire book, lol. Go figure.



EDIT: Old image wasn't working, not sure why. GoogleSites seems to save files differently because I could see the image on my computer, but not from this work computer. How annoying! Anyways, updated!

---

There are a lot of things that go into the damage a firearm can do above and beyond simple caliber or millimeter although those are good general basics to start with.

To get a real understanding of what damage a firearm could do you not only need to know the caliber/mm size barrel the weapon has but what individual ammunition you are using in the weapon. Full/Total metal jacket = Greater piercing damage through armor while Soft Tip or Hollow Point = Greater damage to unarmored targets.

Range to target is also a big factor in many standardized cartridges. A standard 5.56x45 NATO cartridge, which is the preeminent cartridge in NATO assault rifles has particular issues when related to muzzle velocity and length down range leading it to not achieve the required velocity for fragmentation. This leads it to produce less than optimal damage in many situations, creating wounds instead of kills.

There are a ton of factors that can be analyzed depending on how deep you really want to go with your systems.

Right, I got that. I think the best way to quantify all this into a simple to understand game has got to be to go with caliber (mm) as the defining damage source with modifiers to the damage based on "bullet energy" and of course the type of bullet used versus the type of target hit, or in other words, certain types of armor will suffer less damage overall from a shotgun blast than say an unarmored individual hiding behind a refrigerator.

[Lissa]

There's more to the damage than just the size of the round in question. There are other things to consider as well such as the velocity of the bullet as well as if it's a frangible round as well (in essence, a bullet that breaks up and transfers kinetic energy to small pieces of the bullet).

Case in point, a regular .22 round won't do a whole lot of damage to someone as there is not much energy behind the typical .22 round. However, a .22 frangible round, hitting a soft target, ie something not armored, will do a lot of damage being fired at the same velocity as a regular .22 round. Then if you have a "hot load" (high velocity) .22 round, it will also do a lot of damage compared to a regular .22 round.

[kandrathe]

There's more to the damage than just the size of the round in question.

Yes. You hit the bullseye! :-)

The mm or diameter is one factor in the ratio. But, essentially the physics entails the F=MV relationship. A heavier grain bullet at the same diameter and velocity will deliver more damage potential (and also range). The fragmentation of the bullet will also increase damage potential.



Consider the variations above in 9mm ammo and lethality.

Also, for popular rifle ammo...



223 -- 30/30 -- 308


Off hand -- other things to think about would be rifling versus smooth bore (e.g. Magnus Effect * ), and fouling of the barrel. Guns are seldom in the ideal condition for firing, and once in action, the accuracy deteriorates quickly due to use in both heat and debris.

But, it all depends on the gun. Generally, I'll shoot about a dozen or two rounds between light cleanings. Most of my guns shoot best when the barrel is clean or lightly fouled (5-10 rounds or so). Every gun is a little different though.

* Not to be confused with the Katzenburger Uncertainty Principle -- which is... "If you sealed me and a cat in a box, would I outlive the cat?"

[Taem]

I FINALLY figured it out! I suppose it's like everyone was saying. Each gun has a specific Muzzle Velocity based a lot on the length of the barrel. Then, the weight of the bullet must be factored in to get the Muzzle Energy in Joules, or what you might call "damage". Because most guns accept more than one type of bullet, a single gun can cause many varying types of "damage", so it's practically impossible to list guns based on caliber for damage when the bullets are equally as important. This does not include modifications one can make to a gun, such as an extended barrel, holes in the barrel, longer stock, yadda yadda. In short, there really is no good standard to use. So having spent the last four days figuring that out, I guess my best recourse is to stick with specific guns based on Muzzle Energy output charts and list those. Thanks again for all the help Lurkers. I would never have been able to figure this all out without your assistance, or at least not as fast as I did !

EDIT: However, judging by these charts I'm seeing, there is much to be said for the caliber of a weapon versus the damage output. Interesting.

[Tal]

1) Gun Laws: is it legal to include the actual, non-fictional name of guns in a book or game, such as Beretta m93r 9mm, as opposed to Handgun?

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/use-of-t...n-fiction/ - while this is for fiction, I'm sure the practice also covers a project such as yours.

[kandrathe]

However, judging by these charts I'm seeing, there is much to be said for the caliber of a weapon versus the damage output. Interesting.

I would expect, much like engine power, that designers/engineers attempt to get the maximum "productivity" out of their design. They will push the power to the capability limits of their design.

Unless, there is some reason for not doing so. For example, I had a dear friend (now dead of natural causes), who was a gun smith. He lived in an apartment complex, and so for his .357 "home defense" ammo, he used a special bullet like the Glaser safety slug. Otherwise, you'd risk the lives of all your neighbors if stray bullets cut through the walls.

[eppie]

I'm currently developing a pen-and-paper gaming system

I have been following this thread a bit, but I still have no clue what you want to do.
What is this gaming system you are talking about?
Is it something like in diablo that every weapon has a different damage to it? And you want to do this as accurate as possible?

So but if you put so much effort in all the different guns and different ammo, will you also where you hit a person......that to me seems rather important as well.

[shoju]

1) Gun Laws: is it legal to include the actual, non-fictional name of guns in a book or game, such as Beretta m93r 9mm, as opposed to Handgun?

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/use-of-t...n-fiction/ - while this is for fiction, I'm sure the practice also covers a project such as yours.

I thought that this was the case, but one of my favorite recent releases (in the past 15 years) ended up in a few lawsuits because of it's use of names.

Granted, the book is all about violence because of the trademarks, and perpetrated by the trademarks, so I wasn't sure if they were mad that he used the names, or because of how he used the names.

[Tal]

Granted, the book is all about violence because of the trademarks, and perpetrated by the trademarks, so I wasn't sure if they were mad that he used the names, or because of how he used the names.

It has to be how he used the names.

[shoju]

Granted, the book is all about violence because of the trademarks, and perpetrated by the trademarks, so I wasn't sure if they were mad that he used the names, or because of how he used the names.

It has to be how he used the names.

Jennifer Government I'm not sure how much of the story is spoiled, but I love the story. I've read several of his books, and love the Dystopian World that he creates in Jennifer Government.

I figured it was the "way" that they were used, since (and this isn't "much" of a spoiler) Nike sets up a campaign to murder their own customers as they come to buy the newest shoes, to give them some "instant street cred", driving the demand, and what not.

I've read Syrup, Jennifer Government, and Company. I think they are all great fiction, even if the social commentary is a little "meh" for my tastes.