So just what was Belial's plan there?

[MongoJerry]

Anyone else think it was a colossal misstep to morph Leah into Sheablo rather than Adria? As a plot twist, its shock value was limited to that first game you played through in Normal difficulty. But its spoiler effect completely sabotages any dramatic value of replaying the extended quest sequences in subsequent games. Now when I have to click through Leah's dialog to advance the plot, I just ignore her since everything she's admonishing me about is futile and her rudimentary character arc is meaningless. If Diablo had turned out to be a shady secondary character like Adria, it would have made just as much dramatic sense and been far more watchable in replay.

I don't know. There's an emotional tug there when someone you know to be a nice sweet person gets screwed over by her mother. On replays, you can definitely see what a callous lousy mother Adria is being which makes me want to smack her around. I hope that she's one of the bosses in whatever expansion that comes out so that I can do just that.

[Lissa]

Anyone else think it was a colossal misstep to morph Leah into Sheablo rather than Adria? As a plot twist, its shock value was limited to that first game you played through in Normal difficulty. But its spoiler effect completely sabotages any dramatic value of replaying the extended quest sequences in subsequent games. Now when I have to click through Leah's dialog to advance the plot, I just ignore her since everything she's admonishing me about is futile and her rudimentary character arc is meaningless. If Diablo had turned out to be a shady secondary character like Adria, it would have made just as much dramatic sense and been far more watchable in replay.

I think Gillian would have been the best choice, especially after the two lore comments from her journal where Adria is to help her with her nightmares. If Adria had Gillian in tow and Gillian then became Diablo's vessel and Leah became the new head of the Horadrim and rebuilt the order, that would have lead to a much more interesting story and potential permutations down the road. Instead, we now know that Adria will somehow get the black soulstone and bring Diablo back into the world somehow.

[Elric of Grans]

I read that the idea was the player was supposed to really care about and for Leah, so when she gets screwed over the emotional impact is larger. Trouble is, you never grow any emotional connections with her. Part of it is her poorly written dialogue; part of it comes from how little interaction you have with her over the game. If she followed you all the time and had considerably more banter with you and your companion (especially along the lines of her dreams and ambitions), then the twist would have been meaningful!

[MMAgCh]

I read that the idea was the player was supposed to really care about and for Leah, so when she gets screwed over the emotional impact is larger. Trouble is, you never grow any emotional connections with her. Part of it is her poorly written dialogue; part of it comes from how little interaction you have with her over the game. If she followed you all the time and had considerably more banter with you and your companion (especially along the lines of her dreams and ambitions), then the twist would have been meaningful!

Honestly, to me at least, her "death" was a bit of a downer in one regard – she's never going to build that little inn now. That genuinely did make me a little sad.

It's no Bastion-esque level of profoundness, of course. (To forestall any potential snideness: as far as anything related to a video game's story can ever be profound. Yeah, yeah.) My reaction to Adria's betrayal, for instance, wasn't "gasp! That nefarious wench would sacrifice her own daughter?!" but rather "a-ha, so that's why there's a fourth act!". Sure, in hindsight especially it's obvious how callous and poor a mother she is, but that still doesn't make me actually care. Hell, Cain getting bumped off didn't elicit more than a "huh" either, and he's a character who's been with us for the entirety of the series. I do, in fact, think I felt more of an emotional connection to the followers than I did to any of the story characters, which probably isn't the way it should be.

Then again, that could just be me being overly cynical rather than the game failing to establish its characters as individuals whose fate you actually care about.

[Tuftears]

I was surprised when it happened in-game at first, but now I can only think Yeah, wait for the expansion, you'll get yours, Adria.

[ViralSpiral]

I think Gillian would have been the best choice, especially after the two lore comments from her journal where Adria is to help her with her nightmares. If Adria had Gillian in tow and Gillian then became Diablo's vessel and Leah became the new head of the Horadrim and rebuilt the order, that would have lead to a much more interesting story and potential permutations down the road. Instead, we now know that Adria will somehow get the black soulstone and bring Diablo back into the world somehow.

Pffffft. "Hello, how may I burn you?"

[Treesh]

Hell, Cain getting bumped off didn't elicit more than a "huh" either, and he's a character who's been with us for the entirety of the series.

I did a "Huh" followed by an "About time. I'm tired of having to go save his ass."

[FoxBat]

I think Gillian would have been the best choice, especially after the two lore comments from her journal where Adria is to help her with her nightmares. If Adria had Gillian in tow and Gillian then became Diablo's vessel and Leah became the new head of the Horadrim and rebuilt the order, that would have lead to a much more interesting story and potential permutations down the road. Instead, we now know that Adria will somehow get the black soulstone and bring Diablo back into the world somehow.

As far as an expansion goes, I don't think our characters would really care if Diablo was brought back. We beat the Prime Evil, that's practically the best Hell could ever throw at us. How are they planning on one-upping that? I think we'll be looking at something different for primary antagonists, whether it's potentially powerful Nephalem like Adria and Kulle, or crazed angels like Mathiel and Imperius.

The path of story they've taken in Diablo 3 really changes the world from here on out. Powerful Nephalem like the player heroes are only beginning to show up since the worldstone's destruction, even more are sure to follow. The great conflict is going to look like old hat if a bunch of humans can single handedly defeat the most powerful angels/demons. In that context the Horadrim are quite irrelevant.

[ViralSpiral]

If it doesn't involve Adria or Dirgest, the only other logical conclusion I can think of is war against the Heavens. I mean the game finally confirmed this world has quite a few different Gods. Angels being the kind of jerks they are in this world, I could only guess the deities are as bad or worse. They'll probably decide nephalem are too powerful to be allowed to exist or something.

[MongoJerry]

If it doesn't involve Adria or Dirgest, the only other logical conclusion I can think of is war against the Heavens. I mean the game finally confirmed this world has quite a few different Gods. Angels being the kind of jerks they are in this world, I could only guess the deities are as bad or worse. They'll probably decide nephalem are too powerful to be allowed to exist or something.

I really really hope it's Tyrael finally showing his true colors and leading an army of nephalem against the forces of heaven now that the hells have been defeated.

I know, it probably won't happen. Blizzard seems intent on painting Tyreal as the ultimate good guy, but I don't buy it.

[swirly]

As far as an expansion goes, I don't think our characters would really care if Diablo was brought back. We beat the Prime Evil, that's practically the best Hell could ever throw at us. How are they planning on one-upping that?

I figure that for the expansion there will be no Diablo involvement. Just like how LOD was Baal not Diablo. Diablo 4 though would need a new Diablo and for that I think Angel host body. Tyrael is mortal now so could be a prime candidate. Mortal and yet still has angelic powers. So Prime Evil + Angel powers if Diablo were to possess him.

[ViralSpiral]

Diablo 4? I think you mean World of Sanctuary. :op

[Mavfin]

Diablo 4? I think you mean World of Sanctuary. :op

Well, the Blizzard North Diablo 3 was going to be that...

[Kevin]

Diablo 4? I think you mean World of Sanctuary. :op

Well, the Blizzard North Diablo 3 was going to be that...

Aye, which is why I still wonder when the D3 we have now actually started development. People spout the "They've been developing this game for 12 years!" but they haven't because I doubt any of the MMO code base came over. Sure they have been developing some game for 12 years, but not this game. They may have taken some of the lore over, which might explain why the books and such are actually pretty good, those may have had 12 years. Based on the tech the graphics engine uses it's probably 6 years at most for it's dev. But I'm guessing the game we have only really got 3 years of dev and they threw away the other 9.

Now I'll wait to be made a fool by someone who actually followed things more closely quoting some dev. That's OK I've been wrong before I'll be wrong again, but I'll also have my answer.

[Lissa]

Diablo 4? I think you mean World of Sanctuary. :op

Well, the Blizzard North Diablo 3 was going to be that...

Aye, which is why I still wonder when the D3 we have now actually started development. People spout the "They've been developing this game for 12 years!" but they haven't because I doubt any of the MMO code base came over. Sure they have been developing some game for 12 years, but not this game. They may have taken some of the lore over, which might explain why the books and such are actually pretty good, those may have had 12 years. Based on the tech the graphics engine uses it's probably 6 years at most for it's dev. But I'm guessing the game we have only really got 3 years of dev and they threw away the other 9.

Now I'll wait to be made a fool by someone who actually followed things more closely quoting some dev. That's OK I've been wrong before I'll be wrong again, but I'll also have my answer.

I wouldn't be surprised if they used the D2 engine heavily. Some of the things that make me think this is the various stairs/ramps in the game. I've been melee'd while standing at one end of a stairs/ramp and the mob has been at the other end. I've also seen things like vault ignore the travel distance up/down the stairs/ramp (ie, you still go the same distance on the screen even though you shouldn't if travelling up or down a stairs/ramp). It seems like only the spell effects are truly 3D (like they were in D2) as distance is not obeying 3D when dealing with stairs/ramps (this was highly prevalent in the Arcane Sanctuary in Act 2 of D2).

[Ruvanal]

I wouldn't be surprised if they used the D2 engine heavily. Some of the things that make me think this is the various stairs/ramps in the game. I've been melee'd while standing at one end of a stairs/ramp and the mob has been at the other end. I've also seen things like vault ignore the travel distance up/down the stairs/ramp (ie, you still go the same distance on the screen even though you shouldn't if travelling up or down a stairs/ramp). It seems like only the spell effects are truly 3D (like they were in D2) as distance is not obeying 3D when dealing with stairs/ramps (this was highly prevalent in the Arcane Sanctuary in Act 2 of D2).

From what I have seen in the D2 game and the way looks in D3, the base form of the games is that of a RTS game. But you are limited to only one unit, your character. And locked into only looking at the world centered on that single unit. The base engine is probably newer than what was in D2, but with that type of functionality they are both going to look very similar to each other no matter what you do to dress them up. For those that do not know, a RTS game field is just a 2D grid with sections of it non-passable. The graphic art overlay for the non-passable areas and some of the connecting strips can give a visual illusion that you do things like go up and down in elevation if they are drawn correctly. Kudos to the art team if they pull this off well, not the programers or developers.

[Lissa]

I wouldn't be surprised if they used the D2 engine heavily. Some of the things that make me think this is the various stairs/ramps in the game. I've been melee'd while standing at one end of a stairs/ramp and the mob has been at the other end. I've also seen things like vault ignore the travel distance up/down the stairs/ramp (ie, you still go the same distance on the screen even though you shouldn't if travelling up or down a stairs/ramp). It seems like only the spell effects are truly 3D (like they were in D2) as distance is not obeying 3D when dealing with stairs/ramps (this was highly prevalent in the Arcane Sanctuary in Act 2 of D2).

From what I have seen in the D2 game and the way looks in D3, the base form of the games is that of a RTS game. But you are limited to only one unit, your character. And locked into only looking at the world centered on that single unit. The base engine is probably newer than what was in D2, but with that type of functionality they are both going to look very similar to each other no matter what you do to dress them up. For those that do not know, a RTS game field is just a 2D grid with sections of it non-passable. The graphic art overlay for the non-passable areas and some of the connecting strips can give a visual illusion that you do things like go up and down in elevation if they are drawn correctly. Kudos to the art team if they pull this off well, not the programers or developers.

There have been some 3D RTS games in the past, in fact Total Annihilation was using 3D when it was released in 1997. So, you can definitely make a tile set that does use 3D effectively. Yes, it's more difficult to program for, but the realism it creates (effects of slopes, height, etc) can make a better game (as seen by the fact that there are still people playing TA to this day and they have a group working on even more refinement by rebuilding and improving on the original engine). Given this, Blizzard could have, and should have, done this with D3 especially with so many games now being so ubquitious with 3D (where in 1997 this wasn't so much the case).

[Ruvanal]

I wouldn't be surprised if they used the D2 engine heavily. Some of the things that make me think this is the various stairs/ramps in the game. I've been melee'd while standing at one end of a stairs/ramp and the mob has been at the other end. I've also seen things like vault ignore the travel distance up/down the stairs/ramp (ie, you still go the same distance on the screen even though you shouldn't if travelling up or down a stairs/ramp). It seems like only the spell effects are truly 3D (like they were in D2) as distance is not obeying 3D when dealing with stairs/ramps (this was highly prevalent in the Arcane Sanctuary in Act 2 of D2).

From what I have seen in the D2 game and the way looks in D3, the base form of the games is that of a RTS game. But you are limited to only one unit, your character. And locked into only looking at the world centered on that single unit. The base engine is probably newer than what was in D2, but with that type of functionality they are both going to look very similar to each other no matter what you do to dress them up. For those that do not know, a RTS game field is just a 2D grid with sections of it non-passable. The graphic art overlay for the non-passable areas and some of the connecting strips can give a visual illusion that you do things like go up and down in elevation if they are drawn correctly. Kudos to the art team if they pull this off well, not the programers or developers.

There have been some 3D RTS games in the past, in fact Total Annihilation was using 3D when it was released in 1997. So, you can definitely make a tile set that does use 3D effectively. Yes, it's more difficult to program for, but the realism it creates (effects of slopes, height, etc) can make a better game (as seen by the fact that there are still people playing TA to this day and they have a group working on even more refinement by rebuilding and improving on the original engine). Given this, Blizzard could have, and should have, done this with D3 especially with so many games now being so ubquitious with 3D (where in 1997 this wasn't so much the case).

I suggest that you read the 'Physics' section in what you linked. It is a 2D game with tricks to make it look like 3d effects in it. I looked at several game plays and to me it only came off as some tricks with tile/unit elevation parameters driving the art work display to make a pseudo 3D effect on some cases. The game showed no sign of real 3D game work that would allow such things as multiple objects using the same x/y coordinates with different z coordinates for effect height stacking or the effect of variable distance perspective due to objects being closer or farther away. I looked at several game play videos and to me it was all just a lot of 2D stuff tying to give an illusion of a 3D game world. When I can see a RTS that can easily have the effect of a steep cliff where there is a one micro tile x/y difference and a very large z height difference and you are still allowed to send a unit over that cliff (with the appropriate fall down), then I will be looking more at it being a 3D RTS. Till then it is mostly just some art trickery.

[FireIceTalon]

I found Cain's death more sad than Leah's to be honest. Cain was such a vital char in the previous two games and when they killed him off I was a bit shocked. The cinematic at the end of Act 1 normal resonates. Leah's death in a sense is more tragic though, because of her young age and her pledge to continue her uncle's legacy but doesn't get to.

Adria never did come off as being heroic, did she?

[FoxBat]

I found Cain's death more sad than Leah's to be honest. Cain was such a vital char in the previous two games and when they killed him off I was a bit shocked. The cinematic at the end of Act 1 normal resonates. Leah's death in a sense is more tragic though, because of her young age and her pledge to continue her uncle's legacy but doesn't get to.

Cain's funeral was well done, but his actual death was horribad. I'd have been sadder if it wasn't, you know, BUTTERFLY MAGIC.

Adria never did come off as being heroic, did she?

It's a total retcon of Diablo 1 IMO. That adria was wise, even if she dabbled in dark secrets. She also never gave off any of the obvious callous tells that happen in D3. When I read the datamined stuff about Adria betraying before the game came out, I assumed that it was part of some grand plan of hers, like to erradicate the heavens, or to allow the Nephalem to rise to their true power. Her being nothing but a demonic stoogie is hard to accept. I'm still hoping she has some ulterior motives to be revealed later, even if she has to remain a callous *****.