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Brista · 07-11-2003, 05:31 PM

(Also posted at the AB, apologies for posting the same thing in two places)

Looking at the Countess drops in the treasureclassex.txt file we have:

Countess: Countess Item 50% / Countess Rune 50%
Countess (N): Countess Item (N) 50%/ Countess Rune (N) 50%
Countess (H): Countess Item (H) 50%/ Countess Rune (H) 50%
NoDrop= 0 for all, Picks = -2

This is for each item and she can drop multiple items

Countess Item generates fairly typical items for a Superunique

Countess Rune =3 picks, treasure class Runes 4, NoDrop=5
Countess Rune (N) =3 picks, treasure class Runes 8, NoDrop=5
Countess Rune (H) =3 picks, treasure class Runes 12, NoDrop=5

The Runes treasure classes basically each have 2 runes in. For instance Runes 1 is a drop of El (60%) or Eld (40%). Above Runes 1 there is also an increasing possibility of generating a drop from a lower Runes treasure class

Runes 4 = Tal (3 in 35), Ral (2 in 35), drop to Runes 3 (30 in 35)
Runes 8 = Hel (3 in 365), Io (2 in 365), drop to Runes 7 (360 in 365)
Runes 12 = Mal (3 in 5045), Ist (2 in 5045), drop to Runes 11 (5040 in 5045)

(At least that's what I think it all means ;) )

OK, so what does all that mean for players in practical terms?

Normal Countess runs are actually a decent source of low level runes. If you want to make Malice, Steel, Stealth or Leaf early on in no twink, run the Countess in Act 1 Normal

Nightmare Countess runs: well if you do a couple of hundred you should get an Io and multiples of each more common rune. A good way to stock up on Sols Shaels and Amns. People doing jewelry crafts or making Honour, King's Grace or Black should take note

Hell Countess runs are basically Nightmare Countess runs with an occasional higher level rune thrown in. Doing 2500 runs for an Ist seems like a horrible thing to put yourself through but you should get medium level runes like Lum Ko or Lem if you're lucky and persistent. Worth a try in no twink if you want Lionheart or Wealth

The very high level runes and runewords are, I think pretty much out of reach. Even getting a Mal or an Ist from the Countess is a huge stroke of luck to all but the most fanatical of players

You can cube runes upwards

3 of a kind = next highest level rune up to 3 ORTs
then
3 THUL + 1 chipped topaz -> AMN
3 AMN + 1 chipped amethyst -> SOL
3 SOL + 1 chipped sapphire -> SHAEL
3 SHAEL + 1 chipped ruby -> DOL
3 DOL + 1 chipped emerald -> HEL
3 HEL + 1 chipped diamond -> IO
3 IO + 1 flawed topaz -> LUM
3 LUM + 1 flawed amethyst -> KO
3 KO + 1 flawed sapphire -> FAL
3 FAL + 1 flawed ruby -> LEM
3 LEM + 1 flawed emerald -> PUL
2 PUL + 1 flawed diamond -> UM
2 UM + 1 standard topaz -> MAL
2 MAL + 1 standard amethyst -> IST
2 IST + 1 standard sapphire -> GUL

Now remember that you can put sockets in armour and weapons (white ones or grey ethereal ones)
TAL + THUL + 1 perfect topaz + normal torso -> socketed torso
RAL + AMN + 1 perfect amethyst + normal weapon -> socketed weapon
RAL + THUL + 1 perfect sapphire + normal helm -> socketed helm
TAL + AMN + 1 perfect ruby + normal shield -> socketed shield

Looks to me like the number of sockets is random (mod1=sock in cubemain.txt which is the same value as the magic, socketed recipes which we know is random). The lower limit is one and the upper limit will be set by the type of item and the ilvl (it used to be over ilvl 39 = maximum becomes available)

You can also upgrade low quality (crude, cracked, etc)
ELD + 1 chipped gem + low weapon -> normal weapon
EL + 1 chipped gem + low armor -> normal armor

This should help you get an item that can be used for the runeword more easily. So for instance if you see a lot of cracked Sacred Plates drop you should be able to make a normal quality one with 2 sockets and put Smoke in for an armour with close to 1000 defence and 50% resists. This is possible even in no twink or Single Player I think, provided that you are persistent enough

Charged runewords (like Nadir) can be repaired fairly easily:
ORT + weapon -> repair
RAL + armor -> repair

And lastly if you mess it up you can destroy the runes you have already put in with:
HEL + tsc (town portal scroll?) + any socketed item -> unsocket (destroy gems)

Complete list of runewords here:
http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/runewords.shtml

Enjoy!

Ruvanal · 07-11-2003, 09:08 PM

For the most part a pretty good post about what to do with the runes when you get them. Most of what you dug out of the TC table was correct except for one part which will have a big impact on the number runes that you can expect to get from her. The problem starts here:

Quote:Countess: Countess Item 50% / Countess Rune 50%
Countess (N): Countess Item (N) 50%/ Countess Rune (N) 50%
Countess (H): Countess Item (H) 50%/ Countess Rune (H) 50%
NoDrop= 0 for all, Picks = -2

When picks is a negative value, it means to do a number of picks equal to the absolute value of the 'Picks' (two in this case). AND to do the picks in a non-random sequence. It will start doing the picks from the first Item (Countess Item) until it has used up a number of its item picks equal to the the Prob1 of the first item to be picked (1 in this case). After all of the traversing of the TC tree is done for this pick it will continue across the items in order doing the picks until it runs out of items or the the number of picks to do.

Now what is important here is that the game has for a normal TC drop, a maximum of 6 items that it will drop. You can have it set to try to drop more than that, but any items checked after the 6th will not spawn. Quest rewards and some terrain contains ("sparkly chests" for example) will not use a modified drop system that references the TC tables, but can generate more than 6 items. This is usually done by looping through the TCs for chests several time to gnerate items and also force specific items into the drop (Horadric Cube or Soul Stones for example).

Now with the countess this means that the first thing that is checked for actually generating the items is the "Countess Item" TCs and these in turn have a pick=5, NoDrop=19, (gld) Prob1=11, (equip) Prob2=19, (junk) Prob3=15, (good) Prob4=3. In a players1 game this would result in a no drop chance of 19/(19+11+19+15+3)=28.36% for each if her 5 picks from this TC. If all of them pick an item, there will only be 1 open pick when you get to the point of picking the runes. If you are lucky there will be no more than 3 items picked at this stage leaving 3 open pick chances for the rune TC.

Now with the Countess rune TCs the pick=3 with a NoDrop=5 and (rune) Prob1=15. This will mean that there are 3 attempts to pick a rune and a 5/(5+15)=25% chance of a no drop on each of the picks in a players1 game.

Whay a concern with these being a players1 game? With more players in the game (or using /playersX settings) and more party members in the area, the game will adjust the NoDrop to smaller values. This makes it more likely to pick items and in this case a better chance that the first 5 possible items wil end up coming from the Countess Item TC instead of from her Rune TC. More players=less chance of seeing runes.

This still makes the countess a good place to hunt the runes as it is extreamly likely that you will be able to get a least one rune off of her under even the worst conditions. You can't sat that about the majority of the monsters in the game.

Brista, the rest of the post is quite good by the way. :)

Professor Frink · 07-12-2003, 10:16 AM

Did some playing around in excel, and assuming my math was right (everything assumes players 1) you get an average of ~1.69 runes per countess kill.

The approximate average "value" of a countess run, based on the cubing formulas (2 or 3 for an upgrade) and assuming the gem reagent is free:

Code:
Norm &nbsp; El:366 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ith:1.51 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Sol:0.0021 &nbsp;Lum:.000 0085 &nbsp;Zod:.000 000 000 026

Night &nbsp; El:252,947 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Ith:1040 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Sol:1.43 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Lum:.0059 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Zod:.000 000 018

Hell &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;El:52,102,795 &nbsp; Ith:214,414 &nbsp; Sol:294 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Lum:1.21 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Zod:.000 0036

This is a little misleading though--Almost all the value winds up coming from the top few runes, which drop rarely (the top 6 hell countess runes drop in 1% of runs and make up 98% of her rune value); This makes it take substantially longer to actually get any rune lower than the top one droppable.

Assuming you convert all lower runes to higher, the approximate number of runs needed to get a particular rune at hell difficulty:

Code:
rune &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;runs

Zod(33) &nbsp; &nbsp;274,109

Cham(32) 137,055

Jah(31) &nbsp; &nbsp; 68,527

Ber(30) &nbsp; &nbsp; 34,264

Sur(29) &nbsp; &nbsp; 17,132

Lo(28) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8566

Ohm(27) &nbsp; 4283

Vex(26) &nbsp; &nbsp; 2141

Gul(25) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;1071

--- limit of hell drop ---

Ist(24) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 535

Mal(23) &nbsp; &nbsp; 417

Um(22) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;358

Pul(21) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;308

Lem(20) &nbsp; &nbsp;223

Fal(19) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;155

Ko(18) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 113

Lum(17) &nbsp; &nbsp; 79

--- limit of nightmare drop ---

Io(16) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;57

Hel(15) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;40

Dol(14) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;30

Shael(13) &nbsp;21

Sol(12) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;16

Amn(11) &nbsp; &nbsp;12

Thul(10) &nbsp; &nbsp;10

Ort(9) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;7.8

--- limit of normal drop ---

Ral(8) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;7.3

Tal(7) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;5.7

Ith(6) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;5.9

Eth(5) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4.5

Nef(4) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4.1

Tir(3) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3.1

Eld(2) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;2.7

El(1) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;2.7

If you're looking for a lower rune, doing hell runs instead of nighmare runs will cost you only 2% of your 16 and lower drops and replace them with (potentially valuable, even if you don't need them right away) 17-24 drops; aside from that it works out identically, so it's probably always in your best interest to do hell runs as long as you have access to Act 1 hell and your character is capable of doing them quickly (and safely, if you're HC). Running normal countess gives you about 3% more 1-8 runes than hell and 2% more than nightmare.

It is not terribly effective to try to cube up more than a few levels; You'd need to find a lot of gems, have a lot of mule space handy, and go to a lot of trouble for not much reward.

Incremental gain from each level of cubing depth, vs target rune (depth = 1 means never cube, just wait for the rune to drop)

Code:
current &nbsp; &nbsp;benefit from next level

 depth &nbsp; &nbsp; Pul &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Ist 

 &nbsp; 1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 44% &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;75%

 &nbsp; 2 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13% &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;25%

 &nbsp; 3 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5% &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;15%

 &nbsp; 4 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2% &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;6%

 &nbsp; 5 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 0.9% &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3%

 &nbsp; 6 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 0.4% &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.2%

 &nbsp;10 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;0.0001% &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;0.05%

"no el" &nbsp; 0.00000003% &nbsp; &nbsp;0.0000007%

below about Pul (the higest rune that takes 3 runes to make) averages about the same, and above Ist cubing is your only option.

I'd probably discard any sub-pul runes that couldn't be turned into something i needed more of in 2-3 upgrades. I don't get enough higher level runes to worry about what to do with them...

It'd take a lot more space than i've already used to show how i got these numbers, but if any of them seem suspect let me know and I'll do some spreadsheet formula checking.

-- frink

p.s. is there any way to do something that looks like a table on this board?

Ruvanal · 07-12-2003, 12:14 PM

Quote:p.s. is there any way to do something that looks like a table on this board?

Try this.
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/~jer/js/column_maker.htm

It indirectly addresses the poor support for tables in the various Invision Power Boards. It seems that it takes some "tweeking" of the vanilla version of the Invision boards to allow the posting of a decent table (and most sites have not done this tweeking).

Tub · 07-16-2003, 11:42 PM

just a small update on Countess drops:

Maximum Rune on Hell difficulty is not Ist, but Lo!

correct, "Countess Rune (H)" can only drop up to Ist, but there is still "Countess Item (H)" wich can provide us with everything up to Lo! ;)

Chances for the higher runes are a lot lower though. Gul drops about a hundred times less than Ist.

Brista · 07-17-2003, 02:27 AM

Ah, I didn't think to look at that TC, thanks Tub :)

I'm thinking though that it's not worth running the Countess specifically in order to get Countess Item (H) drops if they are the same as other boss drops or similar to the local normal monster drops. Basically you get her specific enhanced chance to drop runes because of her Countess Rune TC. I don't know how well her Item (H) TC compares, possibly it's beefed up with regard to runes relative to other similar monsters like Griswold and the Smith but then again possibly not

I'll look into it deeper and report back

Brista · 07-17-2003, 07:38 AM

Interesting

The probabilities of high level runes in Countess (Hell) are much higher than comparable Act 1 bosses (I looked at The Smith, Rakanishu and Treehead)

So the Countess has two possibilities to drop good runes

1) Countess Hell - basically a regular boss drop but weighted towards rune drops. Up to Lo can drop. Augmented by more players in the game. Runes from this TC are much less likely to drop than Runes from Countess Runes TC

2) Countess Runes - rune only drops. Up to Ist. Hampered by increased player count

In any event she is very worthwhile

Runes that she can drop unlock the following runewords:

Countess (Normal)
drops up to Ral from her Runes TC and up to Ral from her The Countess (Normal) TC

Leaf
Malice
Nadir
Stealth
Steel

Countess (Nightmare)
drops up to Io from her Runes TC and up to Ko from her The Countess (Nightmare) TC

Ancient's Pledge
Black
Holy Thunder
Honour
King's Grace
Lore
Melody
Memory
Radiance
Rhyme
Smoke
Strength
White
Zephyr

Countess (Hell)
drops up to Ist from her Runes TC and up to Lo from her The Countess (Hell) TC

Lionheart
Silence
Venom
Wealth
Call to Arms
Chaos
Crescent Moon
Delirium
Exile
Gloom
Heart of the Oak
Kingslayer
Passion
Sanctuary
Stone

Can't drop the runes for:

Fury
Beast
Bramble
Breath of the Dying
Chains of Honour
Doom
Enigma
Eternity
Famine
Hand of Justice

Note: although she can drop such high runes the runes above her Runes only Treasure Class will drop very rarely although still more often for her than for other bosses

Thanks to Tub and TrueMuppet for the heads up!

GenericKen · 07-19-2003, 03:44 AM

Anyone know what the highest level runedrops from the hellforge are? I should know this, but I don't

GenericKen · 07-22-2003, 03:24 AM

Here's another question... Exactly what type of monster is the countess?

I.E. How much hp and resists does she have in hell?

Brista · 07-22-2003, 04:45 AM

This one I can provide a link for, I'm not sure about the Hellforge drops

She is basically her own type of monster - a superunique. She is based on the Dark Stalkers found with her (class: corruptrogue3)

http://www.d2data.net/110beta/monster/Countess.html

07-24-2003, 12:26 AM

I cant guarantee it either cause the runes u get from the hellforge quest are hardcoded and i either dont have the time or expertise to extract them from the *.dll files. But various tests seem to indicate that the highest rune is the Gul-rune.

Brista · 07-24-2003, 01:37 AM

Ernie,Jul 24 2003, 12:17 AM Wrote:But various tests seem to indicate that the highest rune is the Gul-rune.

Now that's very interesting

Considering that the Countess' Rune TC drops up to IST, the one before GUL and from her regular drop she can drop up to LO it means the Countess (approx run time 3-5 mins) will turn up better runes than the Hellforge (time to run a mule up there several hours)

You may well be right about the Hellforge drop being hard-coded, I certainly can't see it in the text files

Thanks Ernie

adeyke · 07-24-2003, 02:19 AM

In 1.09, nightmare/hell hellforges dropped only up to Um, while hell Countess could drop up to Vex. So it was already "better" there. For a true estimate of the quality, though, one has to factor in the rarity of each rune. The Countess usually drops lower runes, while the hellforge weighted all runes equally, so you had a 1/11 chance of getting the one you want fromt the range. If there's something similar with the hellforge now, it'll still give better overall drops.

Hammerman · 07-28-2003, 11:46 PM

The highest rune possible from the Hellforge is indeed Gul (and yes, it is hardcoded).

Normal: r01-r11
Nightmare: r12-r22
Hell: r15-r25

r01 El Rune
r02 Eld Rune
r03 Tir Rune
r04 Nef Rune
r05 Eth Rune
r06 Ith Rune
r07 Tal Rune
r08 Ral Rune
r09 Ort Rune
r10 Thul Rune
r11 Amn Rune
r12 Sol Rune
r13 Shael Rune
r14 Dol Rune
r15 Hel Rune
r16 Io Rune
r17 Lum Rune
r18 Ko Rune
r19 Fal Rune
r20 Lem Rune
r21 Pul Rune
r22 Um Rune
r23 Mal Rune
r24 Ist Rune
r25 Gul Rune

Crystalion · (This post was last modified: 07-29-2003, 03:32 AM by Crystalion.)

Hammerman,Jul 28 2003, 11:37 PM Wrote:The highest rune possible from the Hellforge is indeed Gul (and yes, it is hardcoded).

Normal: r01-r11
Nightmare: r12-r22
Hell: r15-r25

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from this, following in the footsteps of Brista's summary for the Countess, the new v1.10 beta runewords with runes in or under the Hellforge drops are as follows...

Nightmare Hellforge

Crescent Moon
Gloom
Passion
Stone

Hell Hellforge

Call to Arms
Delirium
Kingslayer
Sanctuary

Since level 20 characters can be rushed to NM Hellforge to obtain the runes for Cresent Moon and Passion in a "reasonable" amount of time I would predict these runewords will be very popular (on the ladder, given fresh starts for chars v1.10).

(edit: despite using %20 I still can't get the Crescent Moon and Call to Arms tags to go to the right spot on Diabloii.net, sorry)

DSTheHermit · 08-14-2003, 09:10 AM

Any chance of this getting a sticky? I find myself referring to it almost every time I play...
Hope this info is still 1.10s accurate.

Besides, this forum needs a sticky, so sayeth The Hermit.

"Overstimulation numbs me, but I would not want you any other way." Tool - Stinkfist

Crystalion · (This post was last modified: 08-14-2003, 11:31 AM by Crystalion.)

DSTheHermit,Aug 14 2003, 09:01 AM Wrote:Hope this info is still 1.10s accurate.

Call to Arms had Ohm added as an additional rune in v1.10s. As Ohm is beyond Gul, it is no longer in the list of possible runewords obtainable soley by Hell Hellforge runs. On the plus side, Ohm makes C2A even better, if you can make it.

I'm surprised they didn't nerf Delirium and Crescent Moon as well. Perhaps they will before release.

pjnow · 08-14-2003, 05:02 PM

Quote:I'm surprised they didn't nerf Delirium and Crescent Moon as well. Perhaps they will before release.

If they nerf Delerium they'd damn well better nerf boss pack density and ranged attack monster striking power ( especially Gloams ) in hell.

Delerium makes the multiple boss packs manageable - not easy but manageable.

At clvl 85 my LF/FA Hybrid Zon struggled mightily in the first two levels of the WSK. Multiple deaths, Gloam boss pack = instant death. I gave up and decided to try and find better gear, I'd found/crafted some decent gear but still had gaps. Resists were OK for hell. I wanted to find a Pul to upgrade my Titans so I decided to bide my time and do some Countess/Travincal/Meph/Ice Caves runs.

On one of the Countess runs I found a Io rune ( from a chest, not the Countess ). I'd been saving a 3 socket Death Mask and a Lem and Ist runes. I made my Delerium hat.

I tried it out on the merc first - with satisfying results. Then I put it on the Zon. LF + Delerium = a wonderful thing. I could care less about the 1% to get Delerium activated. Confuse is what I was after and it works like a charm.

Down into the WSK and slow advance plus delerium hat = fun, not frustration.

Confuse certainly helped against Lister's pack ( you have no idea how satsifying it is to see two of those guys butting each other in the head )

Of course Delerium was no help at all against Baal, but patience and multiple trips to town for mana and by clvl 85.95 my Zon was a Matriarch.

arch-angel_109 · 08-15-2003, 08:19 PM

Quote: I wanted to find a Pul to upgrade my Titans so I decided to bide my time and do some Countess/Travincal/Meph/Ice Caves runs.

what do travincal and ice cave runs do? ive never heard of them before???
what items do the monsters and uniques have in there??? :blink:

Rataxes · (This post was last modified: 08-15-2003, 10:33 PM by Rataxes.)

pjnow, Delirium is not required to manage Hell. Confuse isn't required either, though if you're only after that curse, there are considerably more accessible ways of getting it. I think Delirium might just be a tad too powerful after hearing various people report about it. An Ist rune for a helm which single-handedly gives you access to half of the Necromancers curse arsenal, not to mention +2 skills and a huge defense bonus?

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