Instance Design in Wrath

[bonemage]

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.x...amp;gn=get+crit

That's a lot of ilevel 245 gear for an alleged 10 man tank. Plus, even if he was pure 10 man, if everyone in the raid isn't, your point is irrelevant about not having access to 25 man gear. Even if that guy didn't have any 25 man gear, it doesn't mean he didn't benefit from it. I count 4 25 man pieces, and if every player in the raid had 4 pieces that aren't significant (as you put it) like that, you're coming from a different place than us. It will take more for you to convince me that you really know more about 10 man raiding/gearing challenges than those of us that live it.

Certainly there is a time spent in game and time spent raiding difference between your guild and ours. I'd love to have that alts gear. We raid with a lot more than 10 people, as we roster for inclusion. It does make it impossible to get every raider to BiS gear for what is accessible. We're certainly not a "hardcore" 10 man raiding guild, but we are one of the best 10 man guilds on our realm, despite having a larger pool of raiders than you would really need.

[Mordekhuul]

My comments about that armory profile. I see:

Hat from Ony-25 (yeah, OK, that's easily accessible)
2 pieces from ToC 25
6 pieces from ToC-10 heroic
2 pieces that requires a Trophy (so, ToC25 or ToC10-heroic), one of which could have come from the ToC-10 tribute chest (because, y'know, that's easier...<_<).

The two trinkets, libram and cloak are the only things not iLvl245. Libram is 226, cloak is 213. Trinkets are 200.

I don't think I would qualify 11 armor pieces of iLvl 245 as "ToC-10" level gear.

To be fair, you should discount the 6 pieces of ToC-10 heroic loot....he obviously beat at least one boss on heroic to start gaining ANY heroic ToC10 loot, so at best he had the 2 pieces from ToC25 and 2 that require a trophy before he started clearing heroic ToC10.

[Klaus]

To be fair, you should discount the 6 pieces of ToC-10 heroic loot....he obviously beat at least one boss on heroic to start gaining ANY heroic ToC10 loot, so at best he had the 2 pieces from ToC25 and 2 that require a trophy before he started clearing heroic ToC10.

Sir Die's assertion was that this was a ToC-10 level tank, which it's not. It might have been when they first got past Beasts, but we don't know because he isn't still wearing that gear. :)

I think Dag's point is more relevant - even if you remove the 6 ToGC-10 pieces, if all ten raiders are geared like this (or better, more likely) then ToGC-10 isn't going to look all that hard.

[WimpySmurf]

A) Holy thread hijack, batman.

B)Have you (well not you, the people having trouble with beasts) tried running snobolds onto the boss' butt and just cleaving them to death? If you only have one DoT class, the rest of your DPS is either melee and can cleave, or ranged who can pretty painlessly switch to the snobold.

Although honestly, if you're having trouble with the DPS wall of beasts, I anticipate lots of trouble killing portals/volcanoes on Jaraxxus quickly enough to only get one Mistress/3 Infernos at a time. :whistling:

Snobolds are immune to AoE damage, so you can't just sit them in with the melee and have Cleave/Consecration/Divine Storm kill them, they must be attacked with direct damage spells/abilities.

-WimpySmurf

[Tuftears]

Snobolds are immune to AoE damage, so you can't just sit them in with the melee and have Cleave/Consecration/Divine Storm kill them, they must be attacked with direct damage spells/abilities.

If a melee targets the snobold with Cleave/Divine Storm, the AOE part will still hit Gormok.

[WimpySmurf]

If a melee targets the snobold with Cleave/Divine Storm, the AOE part will still hit Gormok.

I think Divine Storm is a AoE damage, but yeah if you had melee do their cleave/swipe/heart strike while dpsing the snobold they'd still get some damage on Gormok, that is true.

-WimpySmurf

[shoju]

I think Divine Storm is a AoE damage, but yeah if you had melee do their cleave/swipe/heart strike while dpsing the snobold they'd still get some damage on Gormok, that is true.

-WimpySmurf

And your Ret paladins will weep at their terrible DPS. I know, not important, but I had to say it.

[Swiss Mercenary]

I wish I had a solution. I like the idea of gear resets so that people aren't locked out of content, but that causes as many problems as it solves. Unless you're in bleeding-edge raid guilds, you're not going to get to fight Algalon 25. Not because it's too hard to get to, but because of a general malaise of "why bother?" from a sizable portion of your raid force. When badge gear from the next raid instance beats the "ultimate" gear from the "super-ultimate" boss of Ulduar...where's the reward for most players? Why would they even want to bother beating Northrend Beasts heroic when the first boss in Icecrown will drop better stuff than in all of heroic ToC?

Gear's replaced, but Proto-Drakes are forever.

At least, that's the opinion of two of the guilds on my server. My GM is getting somewhat motivated to go back to Ulduar if we can't make headway on Anub 25 Heroic, but I wish he'd do that faster. And by faster, I mean - on nights where we cut progression short.

Personally, I have a lot of problems with the difficulty levels of Tier 9. I think that the Ulduar approach of slightly, but steadily nerfing the hard modes as time goes on is best. I bet we would have seen more of that, had Tier 8 not been cut short.

[Sir_Die_alot]

Sir Die's assertion was that this was a ToC-10 level tank, which it's not. It might have been when they first got past Beasts, but we don't know because he isn't still wearing that gear. :)

I think Dag's point is more relevant - even if you remove the 6 ToGC-10 pieces, if all ten raiders are geared like this (or better, more likely) then ToGC-10 isn't going to look all that hard.

By that same logic shoju is not a 10 man dps. I think I'm going to cut the replies short there though, some people are starting to sound offended. :unsure:

[Swiss Mercenary]

For what it's worth, in my alt's experiences with ToGC 10, Ilvl 232 gear across the raid is enough to do the first four bosses without much trouble, without having to stack the raid.

I pugged my runs, so I don't remember what gear the tanks had, but everyone else was definitely in mostly 232, and we were way ahead of the DPS checks.

[shoju]

By that same logic shoju is not a 10 man dps. I think I'm going to cut the replies short there though, some people are starting to sound offended. :unsure:

Of all the people that you could point to, you pointed at the wrong person. I am the very definition of a 10 man raider. You will be hard pressed to find raiders with less 25 man achievements then me. I'm so anti-25 man raiding that I'm normally drug / stuck with staying becuase the 25 man happens at the beginning of my 10 man raiding time. I have had monumental Disagreements with numerous people in the guild because of my loathing of 25 mans.

According to Be.imba.Hu's pie graph at the bottom of the page I have killed:

10 man Bosses: 292
25 man bosses: 15

And just so there is no mistake in what those 15 bosses are:
ratio runs progress
Naxxramas 7.69% 1 20% (3/15)
Malygos 7.69% 1 100% (1/1)
Sartharion 46.15% 6 100% (1/1)
Wintergrasp 38.46% 5 67% (2/3)

So please. When you see 245 gear on a character, or a single 25man boss trinket, think before you post. I really want to keep going, but I will let my gear list speak for itself.

My gear is:
t9 Head: 50 emblems of triumph. Purchased with emblems I received while raiding 10 man content and doing the daily heroic
Sparkling Onyxia Tooth Pendant: Quest reward from turning in the Head of Onyxia, from the 10 man raid.
t9 shoulders: 30 emblems of triumph. Purchased with emblems I received while raiding 10 man content and doing the daily heroic
Aged Winter Cloak: Hodir 10 man
T8.25 Chest: Purchased with 58 Emblems of Conquest from running Heroics and raids.
Death Warmed Bealt: Crafted.
T9 Pants: 50 emblems of triumph. Purchased with emblems I received while raiding 10 man content and doing the daily heroic
PLated Greaves of Providence: Heroic 5 man
Bitter Cold Armguards: 10 man Hard Mode
t9 Gloves: 30 emblems of triumph. Purchased with emblems I received while raiding 10 man content and doing the daily heroic
Gormok's Band: 10 man Beasts
Bloodshed Band: Emblems of Triumph Purchase
FotFF: We 13 manned Sarth 25 after an Ulduar night. ZOMG I have 25 man loot that is a tier and a half old, that I got when it was still an ilvl downgrade.
DMC:G : I gave my Gold away for that.
Libram of Valiance: Emblems of Triumph Purchase.
Edge of Agony: Twins 10.


So before you go pointing and waving at me. You should think. If you want to knock me for Wearing FotFF I will just go back to wearing one of the other 10 man trinkets that I have rotting in my bank, and still not be nearly as IMBA as a 25 geared Ret Pally. You realize that ToC25 clearing Ret paladins have ~700-1k more AP than me right? You realize that they have 1-2% more crit, 2-4 more expertise, and less problems with staying close to the hit cap?

[Frag]

By that same logic shoju is not a 10 man dps.

That's kinda funny, Shoju is the most anti-25m person in our whole guild. He throws a fit when we try to bump up a raid from 10 to 25m because he computer freaks out and crashes repeatedly whenever there's that much spell graphics flying around.

If you had to pick someone who isn't a '10m geared' in there Terenas Lurker guild, it would be myself. I go along with Keepers from time to time to fill out there 25m raids and I have ridiculous luck when I do so. I haven't checked, as I really don't care, but I'm pretty certain that Tiga uses more 245ilvl gear total that anyone else in the guild.

Good luck, Sir!
~Frag:lol:

[shoju]

That's kinda funny, Shoju is the most anti-25m person in our whole guild. He throws a fit when we try to bump up a raid from 10 to 25m because he computer freaks out and crashes repeatedly whenever there's that much spell graphics flying around.

I just realized that the Be.Imba stat wasn't updated for the week, becuase I killed Ony 25 on Thursday.

Want to see the fight from my perspective?


I had my camera set like that for all of phase 3 so that I could 'try' and DPS. For those of you not intimately familiar with Onyxias lair, that is the floor in front of her back right leg when you are tanking her against the back wall :o

(P.S. Pay no mind to the keybinds. Spellbinder is where it is at!)