Computer replacement!

[Zich]

I was sitting in on Tal talking upgrades with a coworker, and while he is leaning towards upgrade (with the worst case possibility of new system) I believe my own system is too far gone to be worth upgrading (up to speed CPU means new MoBo, RAM is slow, Vid card was good 3 years ago, etc).

Does anyone have solid insights for a machine that will keep up with gaming for the next 3-5 years?
My own expertise prohibits building it myself, but I have friends who could, or is mainstream manufacturer the way to go now?

The PC would be little more than a portal to WoW (though future games are possible), with occasional interruptions for internet, itunes, and non-professional photo/video editing. I am too tired of seeing 14fps in most raid encounters with ALL settings at min, and still crashing into the single digits at times. I miss 3 years ago when I could run max settings and get 50-60 fps in MC with 40 people. I just want to see armor reflections and shadows again!

My price range is limited (no 'bragging rights' for me!), I'd much rather be below 1k than above, definitely not over 2k, but if there are setups or systems pushing that border that are guaranteed performers for the next 5 years, I'd be interested.

The last time I looked seriously at parts, dual core was speculation with no price or release date, and SLI linked video cards was the newest thing, so if anyone can make a good suggestion or at least save me some hours of research getting started, it would help!

thanks,
Zich

[Lissa]

I was sitting in on Tal talking upgrades with a coworker, and while he is leaning towards upgrade (with the worst case possibility of new system) I believe my own system is too far gone to be worth upgrading (up to speed CPU means new MoBo, RAM is slow, Vid card was good 3 years ago, etc).

Does anyone have solid insights for a machine that will keep up with gaming for the next 3-5 years?
My own expertise prohibits building it myself, but I have friends who could, or is mainstream manufacturer the way to go now?

The PC would be little more than a portal to WoW (though future games are possible), with occasional interruptions for internet, itunes, and non-professional photo/video editing. I am too tired of seeing 14fps in most raid encounters with ALL settings at min, and still crashing into the single digits at times. I miss 3 years ago when I could run max settings and get 50-60 fps in MC with 40 people. I just want to see armor reflections and shadows again!

My price range is limited (no 'bragging rights' for me!), I'd much rather be below 1k than above, definitely not over 2k, but if there are setups or systems pushing that border that are guaranteed performers for the next 5 years, I'd be interested.

The last time I looked seriously at parts, dual core was speculation with no price or release date, and SLI linked video cards was the newest thing, so if anyone can make a good suggestion or at least save me some hours of research getting started, it would help!

thanks,
Zich

If you're goal is to build a machine that will still be effective in 3 to 5 years, you're going to be looking at more bleeding edge hardware. In the case of that, you're looking more for a i7 style processor with a equivalent motherboard and top of the line video cards. It could easily run you in the $1k+ range depending on what you go with.

[Crushar]

I usually look at Sharkyextreme.com to get an idea of reasonable priced gaming machine builds. They have a value gaming pc guide for a reasonably priced pc build at 1 thousand dollars. (More like a 3 year shelf life though) This would require you to have a friend help you with building the machine. You might actually find you enjoy making your own machine. It is pretty easy. I am barely computer literate compared to many forum dwellers but find I enjoy it.

[Concillian]

You have two options really. The end result remains almost the same in terms of money spent, but I think the 2nd option will yield more overall satisfaction.

Option 1) buy bleeding edge and hope it lasts 5 years
Option 2) buy not-so-bleeding edge and then gut some components in 2.5 years.


For option 1 you're looking at a Core i7, 6 GB, GTX 285, something in that neighborhood. It'll run about 1k just for the core components (CPU - $300, MB - $200, RAM - $100, Video - $350, PSU - $80, total ~$1000-1050) Then you tack on a case, keyboard, mouse, monitor, hard drive, DVD drive, etc...

option 2 you go something more mild like a cheap quad or expensive dual plus a mid-line video card:
q8400 $185, P45 MB - $100, 4870 1GB -$200, PSU - $60 total ~$550.
Then you tack on the same other peripherals you otherwise would: keyboard, mouse, monitor, case, hard drive, etc... and make a similar upgrade again in 2-3 years (if you get a good power supply you shouldn't have to replace that.)
This also allows you to stagger the other upgrades. Like if you have a hard drive that's 2 years old, you can use it for 2-3 more (expected life is around 5 years, so you'd want to replace it by then) and replace it when you do your other upgrade. Maybe do monitor this time around and do your other peripherals later.

Then you can better expect to have decent performance. 2-3 years from now an i7 is probably going to be acceptable, but not bleeding edge, of course. But a GTX285 is likely to be quite slow. Video card evolution (for gaming performance) moves at a quicker pace than CPU. The $200 card in 2-3 years is going to kick the crap out of today's $350 card. So you'll end up 'resetting' your baseline halfway.

Now I'm always a proponent of DIY, just because you get what you want and don't have to make concessions just because Dell doesn't offer the video card you really want with the base system you'd like (or whatever components, all computer builders do something like that, where they limit the options). The cost benefit is just a bonus.

As far as what the rest costs, you're looking at:
case $40-100 (highly dependent on preference)
Keyboard $20-100 (again preference)
Mouse $20-100 (yet again)
HD $50-80
DVD $30ish
Monitor $100 up to $1k depending on desired res / screen size.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Presently I'm hardware ignorant, so I can't contribute much to this thread.

You have two options really. The end result remains almost the same in terms of money spent, but I think the 2nd option will yield more overall satisfaction.

Option 1) buy bleeding edge and hope it lasts 5 years
Option 2) buy not-so-bleeding edge and then gut some components in 2.5 years.

From long experience, let me add my vote for option 2. Not only does it keep you with an up to date computer for longer and at about the same cost, but you'll avoid the whole mess of immature drivers, etc.

Now I'm always a proponent of DIY, just because you get what you want and don't have to make concessions just because Dell doesn't offer the video card you really want with the base system you'd like (or whatever components, all computer builders do something like that, where they limit the options). The cost benefit is just a bonus.

Agree completely. And it is pretty easy to do, and only requires a number 2 Phillips screwdriver. Take your time, and in a weekend you'll have a great machine that you'll feel comfortable upgrading as time goes by.

Keyboard $20-100 (again preference)
Mouse $20-100 (yet again)
Monitor $100 up to $1k depending on desired res / screen size.

These external components shouldn't even be considered when building a system unless it is your first system. Otherwise, go with what you have and upgrade these peripherals when you see a great (not just good) deal on them. A good mouse (trackball in my case) will last ten years or more, outlasting three or four systems. Ditto keyboard. And, almost, ditto monitor.

Good luck.

--Pete

[Zich]

Thanks for the input all!

I will be looking at a full system, since my current PC will stick around so that when me and the wife. However some of the nicer peripherals will go to the new PC, and more economy models will get picked up for the old one. I think stepping down from a 22" widescreen to a 19 or so would probably help the old PC's issues as well.

I hadn't thought much about option 2, that *was* my intent when I had my current PC built, but I let it go for far too long due to real life events (being broke in college, moving repeatedly with stretches of no internet, getting married). Since my life is pretty stable now and should be that way for quite some time, I think option 2 would probably be the smart way to go again, so much thanks for reminding me of that >.>

The parts and model #s thrown out are very helpful, hopefully enough to give me a good point to start researching.


If I opt for building my own (or having friends help), any suggestions for software/OS versions, etc? I currently don't own any up-to-date copies of much, and would really like to NOT use windows xp64 on a new machine, since I have had so many problems with MS's forgotten hybrid over the years.

[Concillian]

The parts and model #s thrown out are very helpful, hopefully enough to give me a good point to start researching.
If I opt for building my own (or having friends help), any suggestions for software/OS versions, etc? I currently don't own any up-to-date copies of much, and would really like to NOT use windows xp64 on a new machine, since I have had so many problems with MS's forgotten hybrid over the years.

Unlike others, I have no problem with Vista 64. Home premium is a good "version" of Vista. The OEM versions are tied to a motherboard and an upgrade of motherboard may result in a refusal of MS to 'reactivate it'. The full retail version is "portable" and will easily activate on a new system, but costs more.

[--Pete]

Hi,

If I opt for building my own (or having friends help), any suggestions for software/OS versions, etc?

I've been using XP pretty successfully for many games from WoW back to the original Diablo and some even older. From all indications, Vista was developed by Microsoft to give the Mac a chance to garner market share. If you want to play *with* your machine as much as *on* it, try some flavor of Linux:)

--Pete

[Lissa]

Thanks for the input all!

I will be looking at a full system, since my current PC will stick around so that when me and the wife. However some of the nicer peripherals will go to the new PC, and more economy models will get picked up for the old one. I think stepping down from a 22" widescreen to a 19 or so would probably help the old PC's issues as well.

I hadn't thought much about option 2, that *was* my intent when I had my current PC built, but I let it go for far too long due to real life events (being broke in college, moving repeatedly with stretches of no internet, getting married). Since my life is pretty stable now and should be that way for quite some time, I think option 2 would probably be the smart way to go again, so much thanks for reminding me of that >.>

The parts and model #s thrown out are very helpful, hopefully enough to give me a good point to start researching.
If I opt for building my own (or having friends help), any suggestions for software/OS versions, etc? I currently don't own any up-to-date copies of much, and would really like to NOT use windows xp64 on a new machine, since I have had so many problems with MS's forgotten hybrid over the years.

If you can hold off for a few more months, Windows 7 will likely be released late summer/early fall (sometime between mid August and mid October). You will also see some new processors come out in that time as well as new video cards and such which should allow present hardware to drop a little price.

[Zich]

OK... so my old computer heard me talk of replacement, and committed suicide (fried Mobo) a few weeks ago. I have been doing some playing from the laptop, but 5 fps in any BG/dungeon/city is killing me. I am now definitely looking at a full replacement for my old PC.

Here is what I am toying with:

i7 920 Proc & Mobo

6g DDR3 Ram

Twin 4850 GPU's

640 GB HDD

Thermaltake Case/ 850W Power Supply

the extras:

Blu-ray Player/ CD/DVD Burner

Media card reader

Borrowing 2nd dvd drive from old PC, as well as the old 300g HDD for extra storage

My thoughts:
the i7 is a bit steep, especially the board, but I think it has a long lifetime of upgrade potential. Cost between 512 and 1gb 4850's is pretty close, but I'm not sure if its worth it at all.

If any parts have cheaper equivalents/better alternatives in the same price, let me know. I want a decent machine, but cost is still a big factor.

Any insights, recommendations, or suggested changes? I will be starting to purchase mid-July, hopefully build by late August. Also point out anything I forgot, I won't put it past me to overlook something obvious!

Also.. I did a lot of pricing on Dell/HP and even iBuyPower and CyberPower (who royally screwed the build on my last rig) and self-built seems worthwhile, but one option I saw everywhere was a 'gaming network card'. this sounds like something one doesn't need, but any opinions on the real value of this extra?


~edit- combo pricing on the CPU/mobo expired.. put up new link

[Lissa]

The socket 1366 should be around for quite sometime, so it's not a bad idea to get a really good motherboard that can push a possible FSB of 2GHz.

I know once Windows 7 comes out in October I'm going to build a new machine using i7 at it's heart.

As to memory, right now you should be fine with 3 G, you can go with more if you plan on going with 64bit and really need it.

[Zich]

Yeah, I think I am going with vista 64 home (premium?), but will be trying out windows 7 as soon as its up and running. At least Microsoft is letting new vista buyers upgrade to windows 7 for $50 (or so I've read).
I plan on using 7, and don't want to put much time into learning Vista if I can help it. I'd really rather just set my PC up on windows 7 RC, but that seems a little risky :-P


One quick questions, can anyone explain the difference between DDR3 1333 and DDR3 1600... I'm researched out atm...

[Lissa]

Yeah, I think I am going with vista 64 home (premium?), but will be trying out windows 7 as soon as its up and running. At least Microsoft is letting new vista buyers upgrade to windows 7 for $50 (or so I've read).
I plan on using 7, and don't want to put much time into learning Vista if I can help it. I'd really rather just set my PC up on windows 7 RC, but that seems a little risky :-P
One quick questions, can anyone explain the difference between DDR3 1333 and DDR3 1600... I'm researched out atm...

The difference is at which they are polled by the system for writes and reads. 1333 is polled 4 times at 333 MHz while 1600 is polled 4 times at 400 MHz. 1600 is about 25% faster.

[Concillian]

I plan on using 7, and don't want to put much time into learning Vista if I can help it. I'd really rather just set my PC up on windows 7 RC, but that seems a little risky :-P

One quick questions, can anyone explain the difference between DDR3 1333 and DDR3 1600... I'm researched out atm...

Win7 is essentially Vista with some changes. It's like Win2k vs. XP. Same guts new facelift. Vista became a bad word, so they called it something else, but they aren't fundamentally very different. You don't have to re-learn much between Vista and Win7.

Memory speed differences are generally very small performance improvements in terms of overall usable speed. The difference between 1600 and 1333 is just clock speed, much like the difference in processors of the same "line" is just clock speed. The actual application performance differences between fast and slow memory is on the order of 1-2% unless running very specialized applications that stress memory throughput (generally a zip / unzip or rar / unrar type application). Typical general use apps are not usually very dependent on this aspect of performance. This is part of why the market as a whole has been very slow in the DDR2 --> DDR3 transition, there's very little performance reason to go DDR3.

[Zich]

Oh thank you both for the explanation. One slight plus, Vista comes with free win7 upgrade, so no additional cost at all, the $50 upgrade is for existing users, not brand new buyers.

I plan to start collecting parts this weekend, putting the mobo/CPU off til last in case price drops (also its the biggest chunk o' change). Any more tips/tricks/advice will be appreciated. I doubt I will do the actual assembly, but my coworker who is offering to help makes it sound so easy.. I am tempted to screw it up once before I let him handle it.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I doubt I will do the actual assembly, but my coworker who is offering to help makes it sound so easy.. I am tempted to screw it up once before I let him handle it.

Just so that you don't do any permanent damage, get yourself an anti-static kit. Radio Shack has one that has everything you need (mat, grounding wire, wrist strap and wire) for about $25 IIRC. Follow basic anti-static precautions, and you'll keep from turning a $100 mobo into a -$5 (most places you have to pay to dispose of electronics) piece of trash.

Other than that, good luck and have fun.

--Pete

[Zich]

thanks again for the advice all. I have ordered all the guts for the monster, my build is looking like this:

i7 920 CPU
Biostar X58 Mobo
6GB DDR3 OCZ ram
640GB WD 7200 HDD (plus 500G HDD from the old machine)
Sapphire Radeon 4890 1GB GPU
1000W Antec Modular PSU
Antec 900 case
Vista home premium 64 (free upgrade to win7 on release)

I think I did well for the money (just under $1300). This should run WoW at 60+ fps no matter where I am (maybe drop to 45 in Dal). Should I wander into more intense gaming, I have upgrade potential to 12G ram and GPUx2 without much work at all.

The only debate now, who's computer is it? The Mrs has promised she will be stealing it when (if?) she reaches 80.

I think this really just means I have 6-12 months to plan a new machine ;)