Yet another encroachment on our freedoms

[kandrathe]

We used to have way more people than that over to the house where I grew up for any number of holidays, without anyone even having to park on the street. We never got any complaints either, although most of the neighbors were corn fields...

And... With a Pa-ar-tay you can always invite the neighbors, which solves the whole disturbing problem. Unless you happen to be unlucky enough to live by Pete. :lol: But, you know, a pastor, having Bible study? Who wouldn't complain, you know, all that praying, and groveling... Those darn Christians, just parking and slamming their car doors all over the place, every Sunday, like he was a Pastor or something.

[kandrathe]

When I read the title I thought this would be about the woman who had to pay a fine of 1.9 miljon dollars for downloading 24 songs.

Which is a good segue to the Pirate thread.

[kandrathe]

It's FOXNEWS. It's entertaining as long as we keep a few things in mind.

1) When FOXNEWS uses wirenews services or other articles from other sources, there's at least a chance of some veracity. When they have to do their own work, they don't outright lie. But they do become unintended comedy. If taken too seriously, it can become a tragedy. Like a drunk driving clown car accident.

2) They're 'interesting' in the same way PRAVDA is interesting, or at least entertaining.
Maybe not quite as funny or well written as say The Onion, but The Onion has advantages that FOXNEWS and PRAVDA don't. Mainly because The Onion can use swears, and The Onion knows it's writing satire. The last point is kinda iffy sometimes with FOXNEWS.

3) It's FOXNEWS. They once almost sued the FOX network for a Simpsons episode for their news ticker spoof.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2003/oct/2...ternationalnews

And, yet, in an age of media whoredom... As David Zurawik writes in the Baltimore Sun, Time for TV press to quit being used by Obama<blockquote>Given all the reckless and irresponsible words uttered by the likes Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity, I hesitate to write these words, but good for Fox. It must be doing something right, if it has the president complaining about the tiny bit of scrutiny he gets on TV.

On the other hand, if Fox News is our last, best TV watchdog on the White House, then the TV press, as well as media critics like me, should be profoundly embarassed, and vow to start doing a better job -- immediately."</blockquote>

[--Pete]

Hi,

How hard is it to assume the officials were wrong when they reversed the decision themselves? Or should we assume they are wrong in reversing it?

The pressure to reverse the decision because religion was involved negates any assumption about the correctness of the decision in the first place. Right or wrong, when dealing with the mad dogs of church it is political suicide to oppose them.

Having 20-odd people over for dinner is little more than a family dinner or small house party from my perspective. We used to have way more people than that over to the house where I grew up for any number of holidays, without anyone even having to park on the street. We never got any complaints either, although most of the neighbors were corn fields...

First, every week? Yeah, the annual event or two might be overlooked by the neighbors, but after a month or two of inconvenience, the humor of the situation wears thin. Second, I don't think this took place in farm country.

--Pete

[Nystul]

First, every week? Yeah, the annual event or two might be overlooked by the neighbors, but after a month or two of inconvenience, the humor of the situation wears thin. Second, I don't think this took place in farm country.

It was probably more like 10 or 15 times a year, and definitely not in suburbia, and no neighbors cars ever got dinged up. But none of this is relevant to my point. This issue at hand is whether having a dozen or two dozen people over for a potluck and prayer automatically makes the property a church for the purposes of zoning. If you think that sounds like a reasonable possibility or even a constitutional possibility, we might have to agree to disagree. If the pastor were refusing to pay taxes on the property and collecting large weekly offerings to pay off the mortgage, I'd be inclined to think he should need a permit. If cars are being parked illegally, that should be dealt with according to the laws of the county, but it is unrelated to the status of the house as a place of residence.

[LennyLen]

How hard is it to assume the officials were wrong when they reversed the decision themselves? Or should we assume they are wrong in reversing it? Also the article says that no traffic or parking issues were mentioned in the warning that had been issued, and if they were to pay for a major use permit I'm not sure what the county would be able to do to change any parking problems. But the point is, it's a house and not a church.

One possibility is that whomever took the complaint had received several complaints and felt that they should be doing something, since people were getting pissed off. So they looked through their statutes books trying to find something to nail them with until they reached the page XYZ and then said "Hey, if we can show that it's a religious meeting, we can sting them for not having a permit, and that'll make the neighbours happy." It's a shame that he forgot the repercussions of trying to pin something on religion.

Of course, that is utmost speculation, and is most likely incorrect. One thing I can say without any speculation however, is that if you try to accurately judge the situation based on one or two media reports, your conclusion will probably be just as inaccurate, as there's very little chance that you'll have all the facts.

[Nystul]

One thing I can say without any speculation however, is that if you try to accurately judge the situation based on one or two media reports, your conclusion will probably be just as inaccurate, as there's very little chance that you'll have all the facts.

Quite true. But that's the basis of most threads on The Lounge these days. :P It's a lot easier to solve the world's problems via the internets when you aren't bogged down by thousands of boring details. Thankfully we have honest politicians and lawyers to keep track of those things for us.

[Jester]

It was probably more like 10 or 15 times a year, and definitely not in suburbia, and no neighbors cars ever got dinged up. But none of this is relevant to my point.

Some of those things do not seem to be true. The meetings were described as "weekly", and that the issues started when someone's car got dinged for a couple hundred bucks of damage. It's a good thing it's not relevant to your point. :)

Whether it's in a an area with many houses is tough to say, Bonita seems to be mostly rural, but it's not exactly the middle of nowhere either. Given that someone's car got damaged, though, it seems reasonable to assume that there are at least a few neighbours within striking distance.

-Jester

[kandrathe]

Some of those things do not seem to be true. The meetings were described as "weekly", and that the issues started when someone's car got dinged for a couple hundred bucks of damage. It's a good thing it's not relevant to your point. :)

Whether it's in a an area with many houses is tough to say, Bonita seems to be mostly rural, but it's not exactly the middle of nowhere either. Given that someone's car got damaged, though, it seems reasonable to assume that there are at least a few neighbors within striking distance.

The problem was made worse by government trying to solve a problem that should have been resolved between two adults having a dialog. Or, if reconciliation was not possible, then small claims court for the ding damages. It appears to me that the pastor has now advised his guests where they should park (on an adjacent property) as to not upset the neighbors. I'd say the pastors neighbor is getting very petty, and deserves to be ignored. If you live in the city, then get used to the traffic, and the notion of someone else living 30 feet away from you.

I have only ever been to small claims court once in my life (when I was renting), and the judge advised my landlord and I to take a moment, go in the hallway and try to resolve the dispute, which we did. When it comes to neighbors, it is worth noting that a little good will goes a long way. Being proactive with responsibility and friendliness helps.

[Delc]

I have only ever been to small claims court once in my life (when I was renting), and the judge advised my landlord and I to take a moment, go in the hallway and try to resolve the dispute, which we did. When it comes to neighbors, it is worth noting that a little good will goes a long way. Being proactive with responsibility and friendliness helps.

Right, but how do we know this guy hasn't already pissed all of his neighbors off, and this is their way of striking back?

[kandrathe]

Right, but how do we know this guy hasn't already pissed all of his neighbors off, and this is their way of striking back?

It is never too late to go back and mend fences. You need to ask yourself; do I want to live with all this hostility, or can I defuse it by going and having a chat with these people I live amongst?

When I was a boy, we had a terrible neighbor. They had crappy fences, and their animals would always get out into our crops. In the winter when their livestock feed got low, they would go into our corn cribs and steal ours. My dad had numerous conversations with them to quit stealing, we figured they had stolen over $3000 in grain over each year. It didn't stop, so my dad eventually called the county sheriff, and the three of them had a conversation. The guy blamed it on his dog. :blink: Needless to say, the next time the dog showed up on our property, it was a dead dog. We delivered the dog to their back step, and told them it was stealing corn again. They were never good friends, but ended up to be much better neighbors.

[shoju]

I was a little busy today at work, so didn't really have time to sit and enjoy the news, however I stumbled up these two articles I found rather interesting:

Article 1
Couple Ordered to Stop Holding Bible Study at Home Without Permit

Article 2
Texas Woman Told to Remove 'Offensive' American Flag From Office

I was going to post a big rant here about loosing our nationallity because of the huge amount of hispanics in America who still view themselves as Mexican, however I don't have time so, enjoy the links. Leave comments if you desire.

I guess I'm trying to find out how the Mexicans got involved in a story about some people in San Diego having a bible study and a person from Africa who had a problem with an American flag.

I see no mention of mexicans wanting to be mexicans in america in those articles. Sure, I know it happens, but these cases are not even closely related.

[Nystul]

Some of those things do not seem to be true. The meetings were described as "weekly", and that the issues started when someone's car got dinged for a couple hundred bucks of damage. It's a good thing it's not relevant to your point. :)

Whether it's in a an area with many houses is tough to say, Bonita seems to be mostly rural, but it's not exactly the middle of nowhere either. Given that someone's car got damaged, though, it seems reasonable to assume that there are at least a few neighbours within striking distance.

This branch of the thread was pertaining to my own experience with house parties. To be clear, I am not a pastor in California. I just don't see how having 15 people over is a big deal or even considered terribly unusual, weekly or otherwise. When I lived on campus, the house parties were more like 150 people, but that's another story altogether...

[Jester]

This branch of the thread was pertaining to my own experience with house parties. To be clear, I am not a pastor in California. I just don't see how having 15 people over is a big deal or even considered terribly unusual, weekly or otherwise. When I lived on campus, the house parties were more like 150 people, but that's another story altogether...

Ah. I apologise for the nit, then. Looking over the sub-thread, the meaning is somewhat ambiguous, and I mistook you.

150 person college parties are not uncommon. But, then, neither is the cops showing up to tell everyone to go home.

-Jester

[kandrathe]

Ah. I apologize for the nit, then. Looking over the sub-thread, the meaning is somewhat ambiguous, and I mistook you.

150 person college parties are not uncommon. But, then, neither is the cops showing up to tell everyone to go home.

My HS graduation I shared with 3 other grads and was over 500 people, 10 kegs, live band, concession van, and run by adults. No drinks for the under aged. It was still visited by the cops, and they were pretty surprised to find everything was valid by permit and legal. They tried to pull the "some random neighbor complained about the noise", until we pressed them to give names since every neighbor within a mile of us was at the party. The were flustered and left.

[Occhidiangela]

Two things this story gets me to wondering:

Why don't some of our good Christian brethren out there in Bonita car pool to the Bible study to save a bit of gas?

Pete, why did you argue that you need a permit to engage in a simple activity of free men and women going about their business?

Given the complaint, and the counter complaint by the people charged, the state backed off.

If one must get a permit to have a bible study, you set up a non trivial infringement of the establishment clause, which works more than one way.

One last point, for the person hosting the bible study: love your neighbor as yourself, and work with making peace with the local neighbors over the parking issue.

This takes me back to the car pooling thought.

Is it really that hard?

Occhi

[Taem]

I guess I'm trying to find out how the Mexicans got involved in a story about some people in San Diego having a bible study and a person from Africa who had a problem with an American flag.

I see no mention of mexicans wanting to be mexicans in america in those articles. Sure, I know it happens, but these cases are not even closely related.

So am I. I just got back from vacation in California's beautiful Sequoia Nation Park and had a grand time, but I'll save that for another thread. This story caught my attention and at the time, and I guess I was charged about something politically/alien motivated while I felt correlated somehow with America loosing it's nationality, but that's dead and gone it would seem. I'm much more relaxed and carefree after a week-long vacation.

[kandrathe]

So am I. I just got back from vacation in California's beautiful Sequoia Nation Park and had a grand time, but I'll save that for another thread. This story caught my attention and at the time, and I guess I was charged about something politically/alien motivated while I felt correlated somehow with America loosing it's nationality, but that's dead and gone it would seem. I'm much more relaxed and carefree after a week-long vacation.

If you want to get hot and bothered again, read up on the Waxman-Markey bill.<blockquote>"It said that "some regions and industries would experience substantially higher rates of unemployment and job turnover as the program became increasingly stringent." It said that the consumer price index could be 0.7 percent higher in 2020 than it would be otherwise, assuming that business cost increases are passed on to consumers."</blockquote>Yes, just what we need now. A few Smoot-Hawley type bills (e.g. a Socialist Health Care Act, an Energy Cap in Trade Bill) to help further push the economy down the slide.

[Jester]

A few Smoot-Hawley type bills (e.g. a Socialist Health Care Act, an Energy Cap in Trade Bill) to help further push the economy down the slide.

Smoot-Hawley was an import tariff. How is socialized heath care or cap and trade anything like an import tariff?

-Jester

[kandrathe]

Smoot-Hawley was an import tariff. How is socialized heath care or cap and trade anything like an import tariff?

The net effect of Smoot-Hawley, however small its macroeconomic effect, was to worsen an already weak economy and depress the GDP.

The reimplementation of Paygo (a pay as you go budget(reduce spending or increase taxes) is a good idea, were we not in a recession/depression), an additional trillion dollar Health Care System, and the economic chaos of a cap in trade system, (again, long term benefits with near term costs) along with whatever other new chaos brought about by more acts of "Change", will further confound a floundered economy.

The worlds demands for goods and services are like one big pie. With the US self selecting to curb its economic power by siphoning off productivity and diverting capital to projects with no profitable impact. I mean seriously, what do you think the net effect will be of suddenly reducing energy consumption in the US to 80% of the 1990 level (as promised by Obama)? Yes, a cleaner environment and less CO2 emissions until people start burning their trees for heat and cooking.

By these types of actions (socialist neo-Luddite pipe dreams), we are in essence choosing to be less competitive. This is economic carnage to quickly implement what some people believe to be an environmental nirvana. Who will pick up the productivity slack? China?

It's ok, I've lived off the land before in my life, so me and mine will survive this. But, I fear for the millions who will die due to lack of heat and food. In the world food chain, this has typically been Africa and South Asia, but who knows.

What is the "Cap in Trade" plan of the EU and how well does it work?