Yet another encroachment on our freedoms

[Taem]

I was a little busy today at work, so didn't really have time to sit and enjoy the news, however I stumbled up these two articles I found rather interesting:

Article 1
Couple Ordered to Stop Holding Bible Study at Home Without Permit

Article 2
Texas Woman Told to Remove 'Offensive' American Flag From Office

I was going to post a big rant here about loosing our nationallity because of the huge amount of hispanics in America who still view themselves as Mexican, however I don't have time so, enjoy the links. Leave comments if you desire.

[Jester]

I was going to post a big rant here about loosing our nationallity because of the huge amount of hispanics in America who still view themselves as Mexican, however I don't have time so, enjoy the links. Leave comments if you desire.

Too bad. You could have made the right wing hatrick: God, Flag, and Mexicans. It would have made for such an attractive thread.

-Jester

[Frag]

Too bad. You could have made the right wing hatrick: God, Flag, and Mexicans. It would have made for such an attractive thread.

-Jester

I glanced at that and thought... What the hell does Frag have to do with God and Mexicans?:blink:

Oi,
~Frag:ph34r:

[Jester]

I glanced at that and thought... What the hell does Frag have to do with God and Mexicans?:blink:

Needless to say, you're opposed to Frag burning?

-Jester

[Hammerskjold]

It's FOXNEWS. It's entertaining as long as we keep a few things in mind.

1) When FOXNEWS uses wirenews services or other articles from other sources, there's at least a chance of some veracity. When they have to do their own work, they don't outright lie. But they do become unintended comedy. If taken too seriously, it can become a tragedy. Like a drunk driving clown car accident.

2) They're 'interesting' in the same way PRAVDA is interesting, or at least entertaining.
Maybe not quite as funny or well written as say The Onion, but The Onion has advantages that FOXNEWS and PRAVDA don't. Mainly because The Onion can use swears, and The Onion knows it's writing satire. The last point is kinda iffy sometimes with FOXNEWS.

3) It's FOXNEWS. They once almost sued the FOX network for a Simpsons episode for their news ticker spoof.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2003/oct/2...ternationalnews

[Chesspiece_face]

Too bad. You could have made the right wing hatrick: God, Flag, and Mexicans. It would have made for such an attractive thread.

-Jester

Whoa Whoa Whoa? Since when is that the hatrick? The three G's was a much more marketable trifecta (guns, god, and gays.) I suppose being marginalized has sent them back to the well.

[Frag]

Needless to say, you're opposed to Frag burning?

-Jester

I hear that it brings some benefits!

Poetry runs through my blood like a person on fire.

from the Median Boards.

~Frag:D

[--Pete]

Hi,

. . .

I think I'll wait till a *news* organization reports on these to comment.

--Pete

[Jester]

Whoa Whoa Whoa? Since when is that the hatrick? The three G's was a much more marketable trifecta (guns, god, and gays.) I suppose being marginalized has sent them back to the well.

Alright, alright. *A* hatrick, rather than *the* hatrick. :P

-Jester

[Lissa]

I prefer the term, FauxNews.

[kandrathe]

I glanced at that and thought... What the hell does Frag have to do with God and Mexicans?:blink:

Yeah, whenever I'm in Mexico, I like to wave my Frag. At least when I'm near Guatemala and looking for a large group Catholic bible study. :D

[Alram]

County won't force permit on Bible study leaders
Code officer formally warned couple over meetings at home
By Helen Gao, Union-Tribune Staff Writer, Janine Zúñiga, Union-Tribune Staff Writer


Sweeping issues of religious freedom and governmental regulation are swirling around Pastor David Jones' house in rural Bonita, attracting attention from as far away as China and New Zealand.

He says it all started with $220 in car damage.

Jones and his wife, Mary, hold a weekly Bible study at their home that sometimes attracts more than 20 people, with occasional parking issues. Once, a car belonging to a neighbor's visitor got dinged.

David Jones paid for the damage, but he thinks the incident spurred a complaint to the county.

A code enforcement officer warned the couple in April for holding a “religious assembly” without a permit. The action became an international incident when it was reported last week on the Web site worldnetdaily.com.

The Joneses assert that the county's action violates their rights under the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees freedom of religion. Their story was picked up by conservative Web sites for days, then made it to CNN yesterday.

Barraged by hundreds of complaints, San Diego County officials backed down yesterday from their enforcement.

“No one respects the right to free religious expression more than I do, and no one would find the infringement of such rights more abhorrent,” county Chief Administrative Officer Walt Ekard said in a statement.

Chandra Wallar, the county's general manager of land use and environment, said the county has re-examined the situation and decided that the Joneses don't need a permit after all.

Religious assembly, under the county land-use code, is defined as “religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples, and churches.”

Wallar said that definition, which doesn't spell out specific thresholds on when a religious gathering becomes a religious assembly, probably needs to be clarified and that more training may be warranted for code enforcement officers.

She said the county was not targeting the Joneses because they were exercising their religion, but rather it was trying to address parking and traffic issues.

“We've advised the pastor he has the authority to continue to hold his meetings just as he's held them,” Wallar said. “My hope is we will be able to resolve the traffic concerns.”

Wallar said the person who filed the complaint alleged that Bible study was drawing 30 to 40 cars.

In an interview yesterday, the pastor said at most, there are six additional cars on Bible study day. Jones, pastor of South Bay Community Church in National City, said he has visitors park in a lot that he owns beside his house.

“We're in trouble if they are going to go with a parking issue, because that means that thousands of people in Bible study groups could be cited for a parking violation,” Jones said.

“What about people who gather to play Texas Hold 'Em, Mommy and Me, 'Monday Night Football,' Boy Scouts, Alcoholics Anonymous? Everyone has a right as a homeowner to the quiet enjoyment of their property. They're trying to take that away. We're not going to let it go.”

Constitutional law scholars say that the county can impose land-use restrictions on religious gatherings, as long as they are not unreasonable or discriminatory.

“If people can get together weekly to read books or discuss books or play bridge, if those are OK, there would be a constitutional issue involved in singling out, among other things, religion as a forbidden thing,” said Larry Alexander, constitutional law professor at the University of San Diego.

Dean Broyles, president of the Western Center for Law & Policy, a nonprofit organization in Escondido that supports religious liberty, is representing the Joneses. He said traffic issues were not raised when the code enforcement officer first visited the Joneses in response to the complaint. The warning itself does not mention traffic or parking problems.

“Even though the county is saying it's about traffic and parking, it's a fake issue. It's a fabricated issue,” Broyles said.

According to Broyles, the code enforcement officer asked a series of pointed questions during her visit with the Joneses – questions such as, “Do you sing?” “Do you say 'amen?' ” “Do you say 'praise the Lord?' ”

Wallar said the county is investigating what questions were asked and in what context. She said a code enforcement officer does have to ask questions about how a place is being used to determine what land-use codes are applicable.

“Our county simply does not tolerate our employee straying outside what the appropriate questions are,” Wallar said.

Ekard, the top county executive, emphasized in his statement that he would get to the bottom of the matter.

“Should I find that county staff at any level acted in a heavy-handed way; did anything inappropriate under the circumstances; or that a change or revision to our processes and procedures is warranted, I will take appropriate action immediately,” he said.

As of late yesterday, county Supervisor Greg Cox's office – which represents the area – reported having received 400 e-mail messages about the Joneses'situation. Wallar said her department has received hundreds of e-mails and phone calls as well.

Broyles said he's been fielding media calls nonstop.

“It's been hard to do anything else but to handle the phone calls and media interviews,” he said. “It's been crazy, back to back to back to back.”

link

[--Pete]

Hi,

link

Thanks for the link. I found "She said the county was not targeting the Joneses because they were exercising their religion, but rather it was trying to address parking and traffic issues." especially interesting. I guess it's the Christian thing to do; ignore the inconvenience to and rights of your neighbors just so you can have your way, then justify it as 'religious freedom'.

--Pete

[kandrathe]

... ignore the inconvenience to and rights of your neighbors ...

Ostensibly, they are parking on the public streets or on the pastors property, not on the neighbors private property.

So, two questions;

Why would the county need you to "register for a permit to assemble", rather than "register to park a bunch of cars on the public street"? From a "freedom" point of view, I wouldn't support the former, but would understand the latter. Especially, when a government official comes to a private home asking what types of activities are occurring within the residence.

Why would the county care about parking if the cars are legally parked on the street? If the street does allow public parking, then what is all the hullabaloo? If the street does not allow public parking, or requires parking with a permit, then it seems the attendees must be held accountable for any legal deficiencies.

I think the issue really is an encroachment on the freedom of assembly. Whether it be political, or religious, it seems to be a repression of a basic freedom. The freedom to party.

[Nystul]

I found "She said the county was not targeting the Joneses because they were exercising their religion, but rather it was trying to address parking and traffic issues." especially interesting. I guess it's the Christian thing to do; ignore the inconvenience to and rights of your neighbors just so you can have your way, then justify it as 'religious freedom'.

If they were having a weekly kegger, the same enforcement would not have happened. If the cars are parked legally, and no fire codes or noise ordinance is being broken, that would be that. This is a politician trying to back down from a huge political mistake made inside her department.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Why would the county need you to "register for a permit to assemble", rather than "register to park a bunch of cars on the public street"?

For the same reason there are zoning laws.

Why would the county care about parking if the cars are legally parked on the street?

If my neighbor has weekly meetings and the people at those meeting fill the street with their cars, I'd be pissed and complain. The articles don't say that this happened, but for the government to have gotten involved, some form of report would most likely have been needed (I don't know about where you live, but the cops don't drop in on me for coffee, a chat, and to see how things are going).

I think the issue really is an encroachment on the freedom of assembly.

BS. As long as the permits are easily obtained, and only cover things that effect the comfort, rights, and safety of neighbors, no encroachment is occurring. Your freedom to assemble ends at my property line, and that includes the sound of forty car doors slamming late at night.

And I don't trust people who use 'party' as a verb B)

--Pete

[--Pete]

Hi,

If they were having a weekly kegger, the same enforcement would not have happened.

You're right. Instead of letting them slide for weeks or months, the cops would have broken up the *first* week's party in no time flat. As usual, religion gets cut a crapload of slack and demands more.

If the cars are parked legally, and no fire codes or noise ordinance is being broken, that would be that.

Yep. And no complaint would have been filed, no cops would have shown up, and no problem would have existed. So, you ass/u/me that the fault lies with the officials and I'll ass/u/me you're wrong.

--Pete

[kandrathe]

And I don't trust people who use 'party' as a verb B)

I live in a quiet area, and the only hullabaloo here is one family who has a *bash* for every Vikings game that is televised. They mostly worship their purple gods on Sunday afternoon. I kind of think of it as that we "share" the neighborhood, and every once in awhile we all get to cause a ruckus. At least once a year the whole neighborhood gets together for a bon fire and beers.

[eppie]

I was a little busy today at work, so didn't really have time to sit and enjoy the news, however I stumbled up these two articles I found rather interesting:

Article 1
Couple Ordered to Stop Holding Bible Study at Home Without Permit

Article 2
Texas Woman Told to Remove 'Offensive' American Flag From Office

I was going to post a big rant here about loosing our nationallity because of the huge amount of hispanics in America who still view themselves as Mexican, however I don't have time so, enjoy the links. Leave comments if you desire.

When I read the title I thought this would be about the woman who had to pay a fine of 1.9 miljon dollars for downloading 24 songs.

[Nystul]

So, you ass/u/me that the fault lies with the officials and I'll ass/u/me you're wrong.

How hard is it to assume the officials were wrong when they reversed the decision themselves? Or should we assume they are wrong in reversing it? Also the article says that no traffic or parking issues were mentioned in the warning that had been issued, and if they were to pay for a major use permit I'm not sure what the county would be able to do to change any parking problems. But the point is, it's a house and not a church.

Having 20-odd people over for dinner is little more than a family dinner or small house party from my perspective. We used to have way more people than that over to the house where I grew up for any number of holidays, without anyone even having to park on the street. We never got any complaints either, although most of the neighbors were corn fields...