August News/Discussion

[Jester]

I think it's crap that I now have to choose between spending no mana for no healing, or spending a lot of mana for a lot of healing that's going to become overhealing. Why can't I cast a spell that costs a medium amount of mana and heals for a medium-high amount of health?

There's no rational thought behind this change, so far as I can see. I can only see it hurting everyone, particularly healers.

First, as I have pointed out several times, you do have small heals. Every class has small heals that aren't just downranked larger heals. It's already in the toolbox.

Second, I really don't understand the mentality here. This is a game. You get certain tools to deal with certain problems, and applying those tools to those problems generates fun. You are not "hurt" by a change unless it makes your class less desireable relative to other classes. Since this is happening across the board to all healers, it's just a mechanical change that all healers will have to adapt to equally. Encounters will all be designed with this in mind, as will gearing, talents, etc...

So, the game is changing. You're not being "hurt" by it. At worst, it's changing in a way you don't like, but since your character can't even play the content this will apply to yet, you're not losing anything, you're just having to adapt to something different in the future.

As to the idea that there is no rational thought behind this, that's just silly. Blizzard clearly never liked downranking as a mechanic, tried nerfing it to preserve balance, and found instead that it just broke their ability to balance regen/throughput/difficulty mechanics for cutting-edge encounters. Like it or not, this is a long-coming, thought-out change, not a clueless one.

-Jester

[Sir_Die_alot]

They literally cannot do that, however.

- they stated instances will have 10 man and 25 man versions. Therefore if you require 4+ "real" tanks, then you cannot really have a 10 man version, can you.
- If you have 4+ tanks taking REAL damage, then you need like 10 healers. If they don't take real damage, then people will improvise by AoE tanking or have them tanked by DPS classes.

I think they could consistently design encounters that required a large number of tanks if they hadn't already committed themselves to 10 and 25 man versions of the same dungeons.

The healing situation is interesting. People get burned out on healing more than tanking or DPSing. When a healer switches mains to DPS, it's burnout. When a DPS switches mains to a healer it's to help with raid makeup or for the good of the raiding body. This is an area that might need some large and sweeping changes.

Well that is another complaint of mine, one I can I'm sure I could come up with a number of reasons its a bad idea, and one for another thread. :D

[Artega]

Besides, you know, removing all the unintentional consequences of downranking.

And why can't people get off downranking as the only alternative to big healttle heal?

Suggestion: Bring Back Heal!:
It doesn't sound like a change they are at all willing to revert. Stop fighting them on it, start working on fixing the resulting deficiencies.

Fine. You have Priests covered. What about Druids, Shamans, and especially Paladins?

Or do they no longer count?

EDIT: Holy Shock heals for about the same amount as Flash of Light (having a higher base amount, but a lower healpower coefficient), and costs significantly more mana. Where is the midrange heal for Paladins, if they're going to remove downranking? What about Shamans? Maybe Druids have it covered in Regrowth, but does that mean they don't get to use Healing Touch anymore if they need some healing right away without blowing tons of mana?

EDIT 2: I do have a small heal: Flash of Light. I do have a big heal: Holy Light. And, currently, I also have a medium heal: Holy Light, rank 7. I typically use r7 HL more than anything else due to the talents affecting it, and because Flash of Light spam starts to suck as you get further into content (where healing for 1700-2000 every ~1.50 seconds isn't enough to keep up.) However, I simply can't endlessly spam rank 11 Holy Light if I don't want to be reduced to twiddling my thumbs between mana potions, so the obvious answer is to downrank to find an agreeable spot that heals enough to keep up, but doesn't burn through my mana so quickly. I still have Flash of Light to top people off, and I still have rank 11 Holy Light to quickly bring people back up to full, but I use a downranked Holy Light to strike a balance between healing done and mana spent. I suppose that, after they rebalance everything (which seems like a ton of work and I'm almost willing to bet money they will screw something up along the way like they always seem to do), I could live with just my Flash of Light, Holy Light, and potentially Holy Shock. But that reduces the complexity of playing a healer - both in PvE and PvP - and I frankly think they're "noobifying" the game enough as it is.

For once, cater to the people that aren't so lazy that they're willing to read the stickied posts on their class forums (which are, typically, about the only posts worth reading in any forum in the official forums) instead of people that have no idea what threat is and how to manage it.

[Chesspiece_face]

Fine. You have Priests covered. What about Druids, Shamans, and especially Paladins?

Or do they no longer count?

EDIT: Holy Shock heals for about the same amount as Flash of Light (having a higher base amount, but a lower healpower coefficient), and costs significantly more mana. Where is the midrange heal for Paladins, if they're going to remove downranking? What about Shamans? Maybe Druids have it covered in Regrowth, but does that mean they don't get to use Healing Touch anymore if they need some healing right away without blowing tons of mana?

EDIT 2: I do have a small heal: Flash of Light. I do have a big heal: Holy Light. And, currently, I also have a medium heal: Holy Light, rank 7. I typically use r7 HL more than anything else due to the talents affecting it, and because Flash of Light spam starts to suck as you get further into content (where healing for 1700-2000 every ~1.50 seconds isn't enough to keep up.) However, I simply can't endlessly spam rank 11 Holy Light if I don't want to be reduced to twiddling my thumbs between mana potions, so the obvious answer is to downrank to find an agreeable spot that heals enough to keep up, but doesn't burn through my mana so quickly. I still have Flash of Light to top people off, and I still have rank 11 Holy Light to quickly bring people back up to full, but I use a downranked Holy Light to strike a balance between healing done and mana spent. I suppose that, after they rebalance everything (which seems like a ton of work and I'm almost willing to bet money they will screw something up along the way like they always seem to do), I could live with just my Flash of Light, Holy Light, and potentially Holy Shock. But that reduces the complexity of playing a healer - both in PvE and PvP - and I frankly think they're "noobifying" the game enough as it is.

For once, cater to the people that aren't so lazy that they're willing to read the stickied posts on their class forums (which are, typically, about the only posts worth reading in any forum in the official forums) instead of people that have no idea what threat is and how to manage it.

Light's Grace 3/3 - Gives your Holy Light spell a 100% chance to reduce the casting time of your next Holy Light by 0.5 seconds. Lasts 15 sec.

Infusion of Light 2/2 - Your Holy Shock critical hits reduce the casting time of your next Holy Light spell by 2.5 sec.

Judgement of the Pure 5/5 - Your Judgement spells increase your casting and melee haste by 10% for 30 sec.

From what i can tell paladins are getting a good bit of healing skills that can augment and alter the efficiencies of their base healing spells.

edit: Throw in Divine Illumination and it seems to me that paladins will be able to throw out insane amounts of efficient heals in a very short period of time.

[ryan4nayr]

I'd admit I did not consider how downranking removal would affect healers. I've always believed downranking choices and stopcasting were the only things that made healing interesting & dynamic. With that in mind, as long as encounters will be designed to be interesting & dynamic, I wouldn't mind this gameplay change.

As for the hpm vs. hps side of downranking removal... paired with crushing blows becoming a non-issue, maybe we'll see less of the spiky dmg that mandates inefficient, constant, max-rank heals. Instead, this will hurt the off-spec healers who might not have the throughput nor longevity talents.

How unfortunate, some of my most memorable WoW moments involve a dead healer, 1100 mana, Righteous Defense on cooldown, 1 overzealous but durable dps, FoL's and a 2% boss.

[NiteFox]

Aug 14 News
~~~

Well, hunters have gotten some pretty serious love this push, and next it would seem.

And in two days, hunter changes have become even more interesting.

Basically, there are three major changes:

1) Disengage, the last of our generally useless skills (The other being Aspect of the Beast, which has also been given a pretty decent buff) now has a new functionality. Instead of lowering aggro by a tiny amount (And stopping your melee swings in the process), Disengage now causes the hunter to leap back 10-15 yards. The cooldown has been increased to a hearty 30 seconds as a result.
2) Freezing Trap, the cliché of crowd control that you paladins love to break with Consecrations, has been changed to breaking after a set amount of damage rather than on any, therefore...
3) ...since this change makes Bear Trap a needless addition, it's been removed completely, and replaced with a reintroduced Camouflage.

On the one hand, I'm happy. Disengage has long needed a different functionality, Freezing Trap's inherent drawbacks needed something like this to be on par with other CC abilities, and Camouflage is back. Yay.

On the other hand, the QQing from Mages, Warriors, and Rogues in that article's comments are getting pretty unbear(trap)able already; and if the Rogues are complaining, then it's a pretty sure bet that Blizzard will listen to them. Also, Blizzard's own treatment of the class has long been a history of dangling something shiny in front of us before taking that away. I'm just wondering how many of these positive changes will actually make it into live.

[Quark]

On the other hand, the QQing from Mages, Warriors, and Rogues in that article's comments are getting pretty unbear(trap)able already; and if the Rogues are complaining, then it's a pretty sure bet that Blizzard will listen to them. Also, Blizzard's own treatment of the class has long been a history of dangling something shiny in front of us before taking that away. I'm just wondering how many of these positive changes will actually make it into live.

The hatred is pretty universal from what I'm reading. And you barely even touched on the changes. How about:

1) Deterrence is now baseline and gives 60% spell resistance in addition to the dodge/parry
2) A new talent adds stun procs to your damage traps
3) Surefooted got buffed (50% snare duration reduction @ 3 talent points)
4) A new talent that gives you 3 free (cooldown and mana) Arcane and Explosive Shots when a target gets trapped
5) A new talent that gives AP to you and your pet from your Stamina
6) Master's Call is now baseline

I didn't even mention BM/Marks talents.

Also, re: Blizzard listening to Rogues. You might wanna check out those awesome Rogue changes again. Hint: there hasn't been any since before the alpha talents were leaked.

[Lissa]

I think it's crap that I now have to choose between spending no mana for no healing, or spending a lot of mana for a lot of healing that's going to become overhealing. Why can't I cast a spell that costs a medium amount of mana and heals for a medium-high amount of health?

There's no rational thought behind this change, so far as I can see. I can only see it hurting everyone, particularly healers.

You do realize that both Pallies and Shaman will now get back 100% on a crit heal if they take the respective holy/resto talents? With the change as well that all items will be set with just +spell power instead of +healing power, you will see a number of Mail items with large amounts of spell crit as spell hit is pretty useless to Elemental Shammies (only need like 3% or 4% hit total to cap) which means that there will be a lot of mail with crit running around giving back mana equal to whatever the percent of crit you have multiplied by the heal costs.

[Mirajj]

On the other hand, the QQing from Mages, Warriors, and Rogues in that article's comments are getting pretty unbear(trap)able already; and if the Rogues are complaining, then it's a pretty sure bet that Blizzard will listen to them. Also, Blizzard's own treatment of the class has long been a history of dangling something shiny in front of us before taking that away. I'm just wondering how many of these positive changes will actually make it into live.

Yeah, I'm a bit excited and worried, too. The last time hunters had anything this shiny was in the couple weeks before TBC launched. Then due to the whining about lvl 70 abilities at 60, we got nerfed so hard it took us the better part of a year to stop being the joke of TBC.

I like how the other classes QQ though, because you know, they aren't getting anything new at all ever period, so they'll have to use their lvl 70 stuff to deal with our lvl 80. *sigh* Just wait till 4-5 weeks after it goes live to QQ, when folks can actually really test this stuff (instead of getting a beta invite due to account inactivity) and see where everything stands then.

[Concillian]

Yeah, I'm a bit excited and worried, too. The last time hunters had anything this shiny was in the couple weeks before TBC launched. Then due to the whining about lvl 70 abilities at 60, we got nerfed so hard it took us the better part of a year to stop being the joke of TBC.

hunters were the joke of arena, but of TBC as a whole? I mean when Gruul was "the DPS check boss" Hunters were consistently doing very well if not top on DPS... now that Brutallus is "the DPS check boss" Hunters are pretty consistently competing for and often winning the #1 top DPS spot. Hunters have always excelled at soloing / farming. I'm failing to see where hunters had it rough in TBC, except for arena.

Please tell me what I'm missing here, but hunters have beeen pretty good all throughout TBC, when looked at from a PvE perspective (which I'm assuming is the perspective you are using). I think mages are much more the joke of TBC. They went from top of the heap on ranged DPS to bottom of the barrel. It was especially ironic that fire was the best raiding spec, and when TBC started, they were virtually required to be spellfire tailors... but that required farming primal fire from mobs immune to fire and primal mana from mobs that are generally pretty caster un-friendly.

note: I have neither a hunter nor a mage that are over level 30, so I have nothing invested in either class, just making observations that I think you might be overexaggerating that hunters were the 'joke of TBC" at any given time. They have always been the butt of jokes due to the general populace of hunters ("huntards",) but people who played hunters well did well with them (in PvE) from the start of TBC to the end.

[Mirajj]

Please tell me what I'm missing here, but hunters have beeen pretty good all throughout TBC, when looked at from a PvE perspective (which I'm assuming is the perspective you are using). I think mages are much more the joke of TBC. They went from top of the heap on ranged DPS to bottom of the barrel. It was especially ironic that fire was the best raiding spec, and when TBC started, they were virtually required to be spellfire tailors... but that required farming primal fire from mobs immune to fire and primal mana from mobs that are generally pretty caster un-friendly.

What you are missing seems to be from when Patch 2.0 hit (Giving TBC abilities to the crowd without launching the expansion itself) to a point about...5-6 months later, give or take.

First, yeah, Mages are in a hard place damage wise right now. There is no denying that. And they've not had an easy time of it either. I really hope that they get some damage output love in WotLK.

But for a hunter, our troubles (this time) started with 2.0. We got a ton of new abilities and some core mechanic changes that changed everything for us, and we started going nuts with the dps, jumping leaps and bounds above where we had been. Of course, this was pre-TBC, so all the sudden, hunters were blowing old content apart in a way they never had before.

Then TBC hits, and hunters continue to blow things apart because folks are still not used to new mechanics, have none of the new gear, etc. However, about 2 weeks into TBC, massive nerfs come down the pipes for hunters because of a lot of the QQing of other classes (Particularly mages, actually). Hunters get hit so badly with the nerf bat, that it gets to a point when asking for a dps for an instance, hunters are turned away because other dps can outdo them without even thinking about it (Yes, I have had this happen to me, and no, not just in pugs...). I am not saying that at that point hunters didn't need some tuning, as we did. The damage we were doing was nuts, and needed to be looked at some, but the kneejerk reaction really hurt hunters for a long time.

However, the main problem at that time was that hardly anyone had been 70 for hardly any amount of time, so it was really hard to judge just how OP hunters were in relation to anything else. Over time, hunters have again slowly come back up as we get used to the newnew mechanics, and make things work. The macro's are figured out and posted, "how tos" are written up, and hunters are finally desirable as dps again.

I'm not sure when you were doing Gruul that hunters were desirable on him, but he is the kind of boss fight in which hunters excell at (so is Brutallus, btw). On a fight where a hunter can (these days) stand and spam their 3:2 steady/auto macro, they are going to be able to do insane damage. But this wasn't always the case. Trying to get a group (be it 5, 10 or 25) early in TBC was very difficult for a hunter, due to the nerfs brought about by other classes QQ'ing.

Again, I'm not saying that hunters didn't/wouldn't have needed some tuning at that time, they did. But they did not need the massive kneejerk nerfing they got.

And yes, right now Mages could really use some love. In big ways (overall damage output) and in little ways (WTF why can I not make a stack of 20 of whatever food/water I'm conjuring when I get the spell, instead of starting at 2 and having it go up BY 2's?) as well.

[Concillian]

I'm not sure when you were doing Gruul that hunters were desirable on him, but he is the kind of boss fight in which hunters excell at

I wasn't talking about our group in particular (though I'm pretty sure we had 2 hunters in the top 5 on our first Gruul kill, we definitely move slow on progression though, this was well after the Gruul nerf and at least one of the major patches). I was mainly talking about when the the top raiding guilds were working on Gruul and using him as "the DPS benchmark boss," because using heavily progression oriented guilds who are very selective and exclusive takes the factor away of people who don't know what they're doing, and focuses on the potential of the class.

There were no fundamental mechanics changes you're listing, just that people, effectively, learned to play. I interpret what you wrote as something to the effect of:
"Hunters who didn't know how to play were the joke of TBC"
instead of
"Hunters were the joke of TBC"

and to that my response is that Hunters who don't know how to play are just plain the Joke of WoW. 1.x, 2.x, TBC, old WoW, whatever, hunters who don't know how to play are pretty much the joke of WoW.

I agree that Hunters had more fundamental changes in HOW they play than any other class in TBC. As a result they definitely had more of a learning curve. They are probably the most complex class in a 5-man anyway, their CC is difficult to apply, they have to manage their rotation and a pet, potentially the pets health, their mana, etc... This doesn't speak to the potential of the class of the class though
I don't agree that that in any way made them a joke in TBC. There was no patch that suddenly enabled Hunters to start pwning. It was merely the player base collectively learning to play. Well, those who learned to play from the start were not a joke. In fact, they were probably laughing the hardest at the Hunters who were QQing at that time.


--------

Also a DPS check fight generally is as you describe, standing there putting out your max DPS. This is true of Mages and Warlocks and Shadow priests too. Ther have less moving to interrupt their highest DPS rotations. This is every classes chance to show it's potential, and why the DPS numbers on fights like that are used as fairly standard comparison points.

[Pantalaimon]

Since this is happening across the board to all healers, it's just a mechanical change that all healers will have to adapt to equally.

Well, that's just it. It's not equal at all - some healers just don't use downranking (trees), whilst some use it nearly exclusively (paladins, priests depending how they're assigned).

Anyways, the heart and the soul of the matter for me is that paladins are already, frankly, a crap healer. I'd rather have anything else - there is no situation I can think of off the top of my head where I'd bring a holy paladin if I had a choice. Basically, I'd hate to see them get any less desirable than they already are for top tier min/max raiding.

At this point, though, I'm finding it hard to get too worked up over any beta changes, just because it's a frickin' beta. So we'll see. But I completely and totally empathize with most of the holy paladin complaints - after all, I stopped playing a holy priest when they were really gimp :whistling:

[Swiss Mercenary]

I was chatting with a friend about Potion Sickness a few days ago and we though it'd be nice if they broke Potions into 3 groups (ala Elixirs) and gave you an independent Sickness for each. So you could eat: 1xHealth, 1xCombat and 1xEnergy potion per battle. With Energy being Rage,Mana,Energy potions. Combat would be your Haste,Destruction,Stoneshield pots. That would allow you to still have to decide when to use each, but would prevent chain chugging, yet also keep the uh oh I just drank that Haste Pot now I'm at 100HP and really should be using a Health Pot situation.

-WimpySmurf

Potion sickness is still around, they just removed the debuff.

[Mirajj]

Aug 19 News
~~~

Mike Schramm asks that age old question: How do you tell an alt from a main? It's something every guild that does 10mans and up struggles with. I've heard an interesting term coined, a "malt" as well. Someone who has two (or more) toons they play enough to rate a 'main' designation. It's an interesting question, and one that the answer is changes with every person asked.

Another good question here is, What Tabard do you wear? See, I don't like tabards. I got one when I joined my first guild a long, long time ago, I wore it for the Goldshire party I was attending...and it's taken up a bank slot ever since. I've won tabards, been awarded tabards, earned them with rep grinds...and I don't wear a single one. None of them catch my eye like the armor does. So, what Tabard is your personal favorite, or not?

This seems to be a nice change from the "Discovery" method used in TBC.

Adding to the list of classes that can solo old world raid content, Klingo, a lvl 77 Hunter, has soloed Onyxia.

[NiteFox]

Another good question here is, What Tabard do you wear?

Tabard of the Shattered Sun.



Sexy, no?

I'm pretty much the opposite, Mir. I love tabards, and the biggest benefit I'll feel of the new minipet/mount interface is that I can clear my bank space of minipets for even more tabards.

I tend to keep my SSO tabard on me at all times, plus one spare depending on what I'm doing to "fit in". If I'm running a battleground, I tend to wear that faction's tabard, (or my Scout's Tabard or Competitor's Tabard for AB and EotS). Besides, if I'm doing Netherwing dailies, it'd be stupid for a fel orc to be running around in a factional tabard, that's what my Purple Trophy Tabard of the Illidari is for. Oh, and for solely Aldor work, I have their tabard which I bought no fewer than two days before becoming exalted with SSO.

[Tal]

Another good question here is, What Tabard do you wear? See, I don't like tabards. I got one when I joined my first guild a long, long time ago, I wore it for the Goldshire party I was attending...and it's taken up a bank slot ever since. I've won tabards, been awarded tabards, earned them with rep grinds...and I don't wear a single one. None of them catch my eye like the armor does. So, what Tabard is your personal favorite, or not?

Guild tabard on Shalandrax for the most part since it matches her gear the best. You can see it in this shot. In battlegrounds I wear my Knight's Tabard - and definitely if I'm going old sk00l and wearing ma wrath set (Ignore that I'm using the red axe shoulders - I hadn't completed the set until a lolbwl a couple of months later.

[Tuftears]

Tuftears uses the Tabard of the Protector. It even has a practical use... When he pops Moroes' Lucky Pocketwatch, the macro he uses also activates the Tabard, which causes a showy flash around him that alerts the healers that he's just popped 'Paw Wall', and they need to step up the healing.

Currently it's the only tabard that has such a use function, and it was only available from the event prior to TBC being launched. I wonder if there'll be a pre-WotLK event?

[Bob the Beholder]

Tabard of the Protector, Warsong Battle Tabard, or my guild's tabard (as modelled by my nub hunter alt--fear the power of the mohawk).

Lately everybody's been running around wearing the new Olympics tabard. I took the time to get one for all of my characters, but all the same, the thing is hideous, and I wonder why people actually bother to wear it. Can't be to show off the accomplishment, like some other tabards. "I played a BG! Didn't have to win, but I played."

I do like the Shattered Sun tabard, too.

[Delc]

I always wear my guild tabard, but with sexy like this, who wouldn't?