August News/Discussion

[Mavfin]

I rarely participate in threads of this nature, but as a fairly longtime Lurker, I have to express my opinion that this thread needed some moderation guidance a while ago. However, when the moderators get involved and hostile (yes Mav you know I'm talking to you my friend:)it is time to cool off.

Artega is in the minority certainly. But he's within the rules as Blizzard has set them up. Whether or not he's pushing some particular Lurker hot buttons (everyone who played hardcore Diablo, right?) or not I don't think he is the one out of line in tone in this thread.

My post has been withdrawn. Despite Artega's history here, and his track record, I'm the bad guy here, evidently. And, even in my post, I did note that he was playing by the rules as Blizzard set them. I didn't accuse him of cheating or stretching Blizzard's rules in any way.

[Icebird]

I'm disgruntled by the downranking change. On the live realms, its simply not possible to cast max rank Greater Heal or Flash Heal non-stop. Therefore to ensure your mana lasts for the duration of the fight, you have to either cancel casts, or use lower ranks of spells. There are lots of fights (Brutallus) where its simply too risky to cancel a heal on a tank - in the half second between choosing to cancel a heal because the tank is at full health and when the heal would have landed if you hadn't cancelled, the tank's health might have dropped in half. Plus I play on an Oceanic realm, where 300ms latency is a a good day lag-wise.

Managing your mana pool was one of the key challenges of playing a healer, and downranking was part of that. Sometimes I don't need to 6000 points of damage, I only need to heal 3000 points of damage. I can choose to heal that damage with a fast expensive heal (Max Rank Flash Heal) or a slower, more efficient heal (mid rank Greater Heal) depending on the situation.

If Blizzard gives healers such amazing regen that they can cast max rank large heals non-stop, it takes away one of the elements of skill that I liked about playing a healer.

Chris

[Jester]

I don't know. A lot of healers use various levels of their heals. I know even on my alt priest, I use several different levels depending on how much needs to be healed. It may not be as big of a deal for damage dealers, but I have a feeling this'll hit a lot of healers where it hurts.

Don't most healers have some kind of smaller heal for dealing with precisely this situation? A druid can lifebloom, a paladin can flash of light, a priest can flash heal, and a shaman can use lesser healing wave. Sure, you lose a little bit of efficiency going with the smaller heals, but since this is already the efficient choice (avoiding overheal), you're losing a handful of mana at most.

And, of course, that's mana that Blizzard never really intended for you to have anyway. :D

For what it's worth, on my Druid, downranking has exactly one use: vs. dispels in arenas.

-Jester

[Tuftears]

Lifebloom takes seven seconds for the payload to hit. Possibly you were thinking of Regrowth, which has a fairly abominable mana efficiency ratio. Or maybe Nourish, which seems aimed at being most efficient when you already have HoTs ticking on the target.

Flash of Light has a very small healing payload. Holy Light is mana-inefficient for paladins. Holy Shock is likely to become the new midrange heal for paladins, but will be on a 6-second cooldown. (reduced from 15 seconds in live)

My biggest concern is how to handle the '10-minute-long tank dies in 1.5 seconds' fights though. I consider myself reasonably good at cancel-healing but if I miss a beat, the tank dies. I consider that unacceptable stress. No one else wipes the raid (except in specific fights) if they don't have sub-second response time.

[Bob the Beholder]

My post has been withdrawn. Despite Artega's history here, and his track record, I'm the bad guy here, evidently. And, even in my post, I did note that he was playing by the rules as Blizzard set them. I didn't accuse him of cheating or stretching Blizzard's rules in any way.

No, you did not accuse him of cheating. What you accused him of is being immature. Which is a perfectly fine thing for you to think and believe. But you are an admin, and you have to be careful of saying those sorts of things. People can and will take it as a sign that you will be biased against people in the use of your powers simply because you don't like them. And given that there were a number of people directly insulting Artega (and myself, once or twice) instead of his argument (which is directly against the forum rules) before your post, it could be taken that you were doing just that.

I do not believe that was your intention. But your status means that people can take your words with more weight than other users'.

[Icebird]

Tank healing in a lot of the fights that Tuftears describes is "pre-emptive" rather than reactive: if you wait to find out how much healing the tank needs before you cast your heal, the tank is dead before you finish your cast. So you choose your spells based on how much healing you *anticipate* the tank will need in 2 to 3 seconds time (depending on which class you play).

Brutallus is the clearest example of this kind of fight in TBC that I can think. He hits very, very hard, and very, very fast (duel wielder). Plus because of the Radiance effect, he doesn't miss much. During the Stomps, I *have* to cast Greater Heal 7 - the highest rank currently available. But it simply isn't feasible to sustain GH7 for the entire duration of the fight (much as I would like to).

So outside of the stomps I use Greater Heal 4 most of the time, occasionally throwing in Greater Heal 7 is the tank is low on health when I'm choosing which heal to cast next (low in this case meaning anything less than about 80% health really). Fully buffed with amp magic, GH7 heals for about 5.8K-6K, while GH4 heals for around 4.7K-4.8K. From memory, GH7 costs 700-something mana while GH4 is around 550 or so.

Unless I'm lucky enough to get a Shadow Priest, I usually use a couple of mana pots, a Shadow Fiend, and hope for some Blue Dragon procs. I also wear 2 pieces of the Avatar set for the 100 mana returned on Greater Heals that top the tank up to maximum. Even with all those bonuses, I'm frequently running on fumes by the end of the fight.

I'm a little curious as to whether Blizzard plans to remove mana management entirely as an issue for healers (which could be possible with new talents, raidwide VT and other buffs and so on). If they did, it would remove some of the skill of being a healer. "Healing a tank? Okay, set up the woodpecker on your desk to tap the Greater Heal button for the next 5 minutes".

Chris

[Artega]

I disagree. Red=dead and there are no other options. I'll play nice for a little while if it suits me, but sooner or later I'm gonna kill them or die trying.

And Pete, the word you're searching for is griefing, not ganking. Ganking can be related to griefing, but they aren't quite the same.

[Jester]

Lifebloom takes seven seconds for the payload to hit. Possibly you were thinking of Regrowth, which has a fairly abominable mana efficiency ratio. Or maybe Nourish, which seems aimed at being most efficient when you already have HoTs ticking on the target.

Flash of Light has a very small healing payload. Holy Light is mana-inefficient for paladins. Holy Shock is likely to become the new midrange heal for paladins, but will be on a 6-second cooldown. (reduced from 15 seconds in live)

My biggest concern is how to handle the '10-minute-long tank dies in 1.5 seconds' fights though. I consider myself reasonably good at cancel-healing but if I miss a beat, the tank dies. I consider that unacceptable stress. No one else wipes the raid (except in specific fights) if they don't have sub-second response time.

I play a resto druid, I know the difference between lifebloom and regrowth. (The abominable efficency of regrowth is no longer an issue, it was fixed several patches ago to be the 2nd most efficent heal, after lifebloom.) What I was saying was that if you need a small heal, there are small heals available to every class, but at some kind of cost. If you need a small heal, but in an emergency, then yes, you lose by not being able to also save on mana efficiency. You either have to accept the wasteage of dropping the big heal, the risk of waiting for a little more damage to come in, or the downside of the smaller heal spell.

Introducing such issues into healing seems to make it a harder, more interesting game. Your examples about the paladin healing seem to be to be examples about why it's interesting to have different heals, rather than different ranks of the same heal. Otherwise, your toolbox is too big to require interesting choices. If the answer to almost every healing question is just a different rank of the same spell, then you have too much flexibility, IMO.

-Jester

[swirly]

This rank change could also be in responce to Blizzard thinking raiding guilds bring too much dps and not enough healing. In most raiding situations raiding guilds have learned that overloading on dps solves a lot of problems. Healers being able to downrank has made them so efficient guilds can get away with this. So maybe this change forces guilds to slot in one more healer than they are now so that they can cycle regening better. Thus the overall raid dps is lower from having one less dps class and fights are no longer trivialized from excessive dps. So in an odd way, this change could be less about nerfing healers and more about nerfing raid dps.

[Artega]

Tank healing in a lot of the fights that Tuftears describes is "pre-emptive" rather than reactive: if you wait to find out how much healing the tank needs before you cast your heal, the tank is dead before you finish your cast. So you choose your spells based on how much healing you *anticipate* the tank will need in 2 to 3 seconds time (depending on which class you play).

Brutallus is the clearest example of this kind of fight in TBC that I can think. He hits very, very hard, and very, very fast (duel wielder). Plus because of the Radiance effect, he doesn't miss much. During the Stomps, I *have* to cast Greater Heal 7 - the highest rank currently available. But it simply isn't feasible to sustain GH7 for the entire duration of the fight (much as I would like to).

So outside of the stomps I use Greater Heal 4 most of the time, occasionally throwing in Greater Heal 7 is the tank is low on health when I'm choosing which heal to cast next (low in this case meaning anything less than about 80% health really). Fully buffed with amp magic, GH7 heals for about 5.8K-6K, while GH4 heals for around 4.7K-4.8K. From memory, GH7 costs 700-something mana while GH4 is around 550 or so.

Unless I'm lucky enough to get a Shadow Priest, I usually use a couple of mana pots, a Shadow Fiend, and hope for some Blue Dragon procs. I also wear 2 pieces of the Avatar set for the 100 mana returned on Greater Heals that top the tank up to maximum. Even with all those bonuses, I'm frequently running on fumes by the end of the fight.

I'm a little curious as to whether Blizzard plans to remove mana management entirely as an issue for healers (which could be possible with new talents, raidwide VT and other buffs and so on). If they did, it would remove some of the skill of being a healer. "Healing a tank? Okay, set up the woodpecker on your desk to tap the Greater Heal button for the next 5 minutes".

Chris

Yeah, I'm worried that my pally - who is already damn boring in raids - will get even worse with these changes. Holy Shock to instant Holy Light sounds cool, but without downranking... where does the intelligence of healing go? Right now, knowing when to use rank 7 (or rank 6, if you prefer) Holy Light instead of rank 11 is a quick and easy way to telling new pallies from experienced ones - hell, I even use rank 7 Holy Light in PvP a lot.

And the loss of rank 1 shocks (especially Earth Shock) is going to hurt Shammies. I don't think it'll hurt Enhancement too much since we don't run out of mana, but it might cause problems for Elemental and especially Restoration.

Just seems it's overall a poorly thought-out change.

[Pantalaimon]

Otherwise, your toolbox is too big to require interesting choices. If the answer to almost every healing question is just a different rank of the same spell, then you have too much flexibility, IMO.

-Jester

The healers this impacts most directly, arguably, are shaman and paladins. I don't think it's a coincidence those are the two healing classes with the fewest different heals.

I really don't feel three heals for paladins (Shock on CD) and four for shammies (and ES is a cooldown) is "too big" of a toolbox by any stretch of the imagination.

Anyways, this might all be a kneejerk reaction, because I haven't read up on either on any of those two healers' new WotLK spells. All I know about them I've learnt from how they get assigned in our raids;) Maybe their toolbox is huge in Wrath, heck if I know :P

[Sir_Die_alot]

This rank change could also be in responce to Blizzard thinking raiding guilds bring too much dps and not enough healing. In most raiding situations raiding guilds have learned that overloading on dps solves a lot of problems. Healers being able to downrank has made them so efficient guilds can get away with this. So maybe this change forces guilds to slot in one more healer than they are now so that they can cycle regening better. Thus the overall raid dps is lower from having one less dps class and fights are no longer trivialized from excessive dps. So in an odd way, this change could be less about nerfing healers and more about nerfing raid dps.

This would be pretty retarded since they are trying pretty hard to buff healers. If you wanted to buff an under represented spec in raids its tanks that need love. You usually bring 6+ healers to a raid but only a moron with a brain tumor would bring 6+ tanks.

[Concillian]

This would be pretty retarded since they are trying pretty hard to buff healers. If you wanted to buff an under represented spec in raids its tanks that need love. You usually bring 6+ healers to a raid but only a moron with a brain tumor would bring 6+ tanks.

They literally cannot do that, however.

- they stated instances will have 10 man and 25 man versions. Therefore if you require 4+ "real" tanks, then you cannot really have a 10 man version, can you.
- If you have 4+ tanks taking REAL damage, then you need like 10 healers. If they don't take real damage, then people will improvise by AoE tanking or have them tanked by DPS classes.

I think they could consistently design encounters that required a large number of tanks if they hadn't already committed themselves to 10 and 25 man versions of the same dungeons.

The healing situation is interesting. People get burned out on healing more than tanking or DPSing. When a healer switches mains to DPS, it's burnout. When a DPS switches mains to a healer it's to help with raid makeup or for the good of the raiding body. This is an area that might need some large and sweeping changes.

[Mordekhuul]

Blizzard quote (refer to this link):

If we find that any of the healers is now missing a critical tool from their toolbox (specifically an efficient heal that is good for e.g. topping of a rogue), then that is something we will definitely consider.

[Artega]

They literally cannot do that, however.

- they stated instances will have 10 man and 25 man versions. Therefore if you require 4+ "real" tanks, then you cannot really have a 10 man version, can you.
- If you have 4+ tanks taking REAL damage, then you need like 10 healers. If they don't take real damage, then people will improvise by AoE tanking or have them tanked by DPS classes.

I think they could consistently design encounters that required a large number of tanks if they hadn't already committed themselves to 10 and 25 man versions of the same dungeons.

The healing situation is interesting. People get burned out on healing more than tanking or DPSing. When a healer switches mains to DPS, it's burnout. When a DPS switches mains to a healer it's to help with raid makeup or for the good of the raiding body. This is an area that might need some large and sweeping changes.

Being able to switch specs on the fly for free will go a very long way towards alleviating the burnout problem. Tired of healing? Switch to Retardin mode, switch gear, and go smash faces for a while and let the Enhancement Shaman switch to Restoration and take your spot as healer.

Assuming that two-spec thing makes it into the full game, raids should be much more dynamic. Hopefully.

[Concillian]

Being able to switch specs on the fly for free will go a very long way towards alleviating the burnout problem. Tired of healing? Switch to Retardin mode, switch gear, and go smash faces for a while and let the Enhancement Shaman switch to Restoration and take your spot as healer.

Assuming that two-spec thing makes it into the full game, raids should be much more dynamic. Hopefully.

You can already do that, it just has a 100g tax (which isn't all that much). The main issue is gearing. You can't just switch gear. It's generally unrealistic to gear two roles simultaneously while raiding. You gear for one role, and take leftovers in another. If you then swap roles, you end up trading 2 well geared players for 2 clearly sub-par players. Why would you do that?

[Mordekhuul]

You can already do that, it just has a 100g tax (which isn't all that much). The main issue is gearing. You can't just switch gear. It's generally unrealistic to gear two roles simultaneously while raiding. You gear for one role, and take leftovers in another. If you then swap roles, you end up trading 2 well geared players for 2 clearly sub-par players. Why would you do that?

Being able to swap specs mid-raid when out of combat would be amazing, and game changing. A fight that demands 8-9 healers to learn, like Bloodboil, could be accomplished without swapping in alts, waiting on 100g (considering they have to spec back) respecs to take place in Orgrimmar, etc. I'd absolutely love it. I am much more loath to respec, though I do it weekly, now, because 100g is nothing to sneeze at when I don't care to spend a lot of time farming gold.

Also, for the most regular raiders, secondary gear sets are often nearly up to par with those primary in that role. I agree, we wouldn't be swapping folks out just for grins, but being able to have your prot paladin fill a tanking role on one fight and a retribution dps role on another would be great.

As a raid leader and someone that enjoys PVP and multiple PVE specs, it'd be great in my view. It would be lovely while leveling in wrath as well. Going back and forth between tanking 5 mans and leveling would be cool with two specs to swap between, though if they did this I doubt it would be until 80;)

[Jester]

The healers this impacts most directly, arguably, are shaman and paladins. I don't think it's a coincidence those are the two healing classes with the fewest different heals.

I really don't feel three heals for paladins (Shock on CD) and four for shammies (and ES is a cooldown) is "too big" of a toolbox by any stretch of the imagination.

Anyways, this might all be a kneejerk reaction, because I haven't read up on either on any of those two healers' new WotLK spells. All I know about them I've learnt from how they get assigned in our raids;) Maybe their toolbox is huge in Wrath, heck if I know :P

Those two classes specifically have been given a quick-casting low-throughput heal to deal with smaller chunks of damage: Flash of Light and Lesser Healing Wave. What else is needed? If a paladin needs more throughput, toss Holy Light, and accept that your efficiency is going to go down. If a shaman needs smaller heals for tank safety, cast LHW, and accept that your efficiency is going to go down. Better yet, pair healers with complimentary healing abilities on the tank, and actually work out who's going to do what, rather than everyone being able to to everything.

The toolbox is already big enough without downranking, and is only getting bigger as the level cap goes up. (Edit: Blizzard also has an eye on these things, so I wouldn't get too scared just yet, even if you totally disagree with me and think downranking is the heart and soul of healing.)

-Jester

[Artega]

Those two classes specifically have been given a quick-casting low-throughput heal to deal with smaller chunks of damage: Flash of Light and Lesser Healing Wave. What else is needed? If a paladin needs more throughput, toss Holy Light, and accept that your efficiency is going to go down. If a shaman needs smaller heals for tank safety, cast LHW, and accept that your efficiency is going to go down. Better yet, pair healers with complimentary healing abilities on the tank, and actually work out who's going to do what, rather than everyone being able to to everything.

The toolbox is already big enough without downranking, and is only getting bigger as the level cap goes up. (Edit: Blizzard also has an eye on these things, so I wouldn't get too scared just yet, even if you totally disagree with me and think downranking is the heart and soul of healing.)

-Jester

I think it's crap that I now have to choose between spending no mana for no healing, or spending a lot of mana for a lot of healing that's going to become overhealing. Why can't I cast a spell that costs a medium amount of mana and heals for a medium-high amount of health?

There's no rational thought behind this change, so far as I can see. I can only see it hurting everyone, particularly healers.

[Quark]

There's no rational thought behind this change, so far as I can see. I can only see it hurting everyone, particularly healers.

Besides, you know, removing all the unintentional consequences of downranking.

And why can't people get off downranking as the only alternative to big healttle heal?

Suggestion: Bring Back Heal!:

If we find that any of the healers is now missing a critical tool from their toolbox (specifically an efficient heal that is good for e.g. topping of a rogue), then that is something we will definitely consider.

It doesn't sound like a change they are at all willing to revert. Stop fighting them on it, start working on fixing the resulting deficiencies.