Is Obama hurting the Democratic Party by not joining forces with Hilla

[Taem]

PREFACE: While writing this post, I found the structure of the message had changed from that of a political message of concern into more of an anti-Obama message. That was not my original purpose; I was trying convey some of the things that were bothering me so far this campaign season, however this is not the way it came out. Just thought I'd throw that out as a precaution before you read this:

I've never liked Obama from the get go. Something about his demurring attitude, his polite pride bordering on arrogance, disguised to those that follow him as 'strength'. How could one with so little foreign experience and ties to Islamic extremists even be considered for president? From my point of view, Obama and Hillary were about as split down the Democratic divide as it can get in all the states that mattered, so Hillary, willing to swallow her pride and do what was best for the split Democratic party offered Obama the opportunity to join her party, to set their differences aside for the Democratic party - a noble sentiment to be sure; I highly doubt Obama would have been her first choice as vice president... Obama instead spurned her offer and then proceeded to attack Hillary's campaign and character.

On another note, both parties have lost supporters, but I can't help but take a jab at Obama for his choice of minister, the one that married him and baptized his children and preached to him every Sunday. How ironic that his minister is a idealistic radical, the type of character I believe Obama to be akin to. Does Obama share the same beliefs? He openly rejects his ministers past preachings now, but what about then? Did he write a note, tell his minister he disagreed with his points of view? Did he leave the church? Or did he sit there in the pews nodding his head in confirmation of what he already saw as a correct point of view?

As it stands now, I'm not too excited about Hillary's campaign either. I believe she can actually turn this countries budget crisis around into a surplus like Bill did, however I don't believe she will deal with Iraq correctly. Pulling out all troops at this point would be a grave mistake, and one she has already promised to make. I think McCain WILL deal with Iraq correctly by placing permanent bases on Iraq's boarder (giving us the advantage for any future conflict) while also giving the Iraqi people back their own government and sovereignty. At first, I really didn't want "another Republican" in office after Bush, but now I find most of my view are aligned with McCain's and I find myself not looking so much at party lines anymore and more towards what I want accomplished in the upcoming years. While I'm not yet fully decided, nor do I believe I will be until it is time for the final vote, McCain seems to be the guy who I will cast my vote for today.

[Vandiablo]

McCain seems to be the guy who I will cast my vote for today.

Bah. He's supposedly a war hero, but I hear he spent most of the war holed up in a Hilton.

-V

[Nystul]

I do think that Obama and Clinton are hurting each other's political stock by some of the ways they have approached this campaign. But since Hilary is behind in pledged delegates, it is hardly the appropriate time for her to start talking about how Obama might make a good VP candidate.

Given Obama's cultural background, neither his religious schooling nor his current minister are really surprising or alarming to me. I wouldn't consider that minister an idealist either, but rather a jaded member of a long-oppressed minority. If we are ever to have a black President, he would probably have ties to some people with those kinds of views. I still don't know much about Obama at all, except that some portion of my union dues are funding his campaign.

And yeah, I expect to vote for McCain regardless of how this all shakes out.

[Jester]

How could one with so little foreign experience and ties to Islamic extremists even be considered for president?

This is simply a scurrilous lie.

First, the concept that (for the sake of argument) someone who attended a madrassa, any madrassa at all, for a few years before they were even of double-digit age, and then for the rest of their lives lived not only not as a muslim, but outside any muslim nation, with little contact with any muslim relations, has "ties" to "islamic extremists" is ridiculous on the face of it. Shoddy Logic should send lawyers to sue that article for ruining its good name.

Furthermore, the school he attended was not a madrassa, and nobody has ever provided a single shred of evidence to the contrary. If this article convinces you that Barack Obama is unfit to be president, then I am afraid your bulls**t detector is turned off.

Or, if you'd rather read it from CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/

I do not think Barack Obama walks on water, and I suspect his supporters are in for a hard fall when he turns out not to be the next George Washington. But this is ridiculous.

-Jester

Afterthought: Hillary is losing, with almost no way to recover short of Obama suffering a stroke or turning up in bed with a 12 yr old. The sooner she deals with that, the sooner the Democratic party can start mending fences.

[Chesspiece_face]

This is simply a scurrilous lie.

First, the concept that (for the sake of argument) someone who attended a madrassa, any madrassa at all, for a few years before they were even of double-digit age, and then for the rest of their lives lived not only not as a muslim, but outside any muslim nation, with little contact with any muslim relations, has "ties" to "islamic extremists" is ridiculous on the face of it. Shoddy Logic should send lawyers to sue that article for ruining its good name.

This whole Madrassa non-issue is just a fabrication drummed up by people who want to spread xenophobia and fear of other cultures.

Furthermore, the school he attended was not a madrassa, and nobody has ever provided a single shred of evidence to the contrary. If this article convinces you that Barack Obama is unfit to be president, then I am afraid your bulls**t detector is turned off.

Or, if you'd rather read it from CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/22/obama.madrassa/

Technically the school he attended was a madrassa. so was the school I attended. as well as the school you attended. The word Madrassa in arabic means school, or place of study. That word has absolutely no connotation of radical islamic ideology, it's only something that xenophobic americans attach to it because it sounds foreign and scary. So lets put this together: Obama lived, for a large portion of his childhood, in a place with a large muslim population. He went to school there. OH NOES!!! whatever are we going to do!

[Quark]

First off:

How is the leader in pledged delegates, states won, and popular vote hurting the Democratic party by not agreeing to be #2 for ... #2.

PREFACE: While writing this post, I found the structure of the message had changed from that of a political message of concern into more of an anti-Obama message. That was not my original purpose; I was trying convey some of the things that were bothering me so far this campaign season, however this is not the way it came out. Just thought I'd throw that out as a precaution before you read this:

I've never liked Obama from the get go. Something about his demurring attitude, his polite pride bordering on arrogance, disguised to those that follow him as 'strength'. How could one with so little foreign experience and ties to Islamic extremists even be considered for president? From my point of view, Obama and Hillary were about as split down the Democratic divide as it can get in all the states that mattered, so Hillary, willing to swallow her pride and do what was best for the split Democratic party offered Obama the opportunity to join her party, to set their differences aside for the Democratic party - a noble sentiment to be sure; I highly doubt Obama would have been her first choice as vice president... Obama instead spurned her offer and then proceeded to attack Hillary's campaign and character.

The presidents with the most foreign policy have included Ike, Lyndon B. Johnson, Nixon, and Bush Sr. The people with the least have included Bush Jr., Clinton, Lincoln (hell, Lincoln may have had the least experience overall), and Reagan. Experience is a vastly overrated measure. You know who two of the most experienced people in Washington were? Cheney and Rumsfield.

"The states that matter" by the way, should be all states. You've taken up a talking point and a strategy (50% + 1 states) that has been hurting the Democratic party for 8 years now.

Hillary was doing no such "pride swallowing" - she knows she's losing, she knows the only way she can close the delegate count is by landslide victories she hasn't shown she can get (Clinton wins big states by small margins, Obama small states by large margins), and the only other possible way to win the nomination is to cajole superdelegates to overturning the pledged delegate's decision (by the way, superdelegate advantage has dropped from over 100 at the beginning of the year to less than 40). Her "dream ticket" spiel was simply a trick to try to make Obama voters think they could get Obama if they voted for her.

For the rest of your post, it almost seems like you're another fearmongering neocon that truly believes in their heart that Obama is a Muslim. But hey, he's not as far as you know. :rolleyes:

McCain's changed. He drank the neocon koolaid after Bush beat him out in 2000 and I don't know that he can be trusted anymore. It's nice that a guy who was a POW thinks waterboarding is okay, really. Torture is absolutely necessary for the safety of our country :wacko:.

[Occhidiangela]

Bah. He's supposedly a war hero, but I hear he spent most of the war holed up in a Hilton.

-V

Not funny.

[Jester]

Technically the school he attended was a madrassa. so was the school I attended. as well as the school you attended. The word Madrassa in arabic means school, or place of study. That word has absolutely no connotation of radical islamic ideology, it's only something that xenophobic americans attach to it because it sounds foreign and scary. So lets put this together: Obama lived, for a large portion of his childhood, in a place with a large muslim population. He went to school there. OH NOES!!! whatever are we going to do!

What's the word for school in Indonesian?

Arabic is usually only used for religious purposes in a non-Arab muslim country. If a school was called a "madrassa," wouldn't that be to designate its religiosity?

If I said I attended "school" today, I would mean a secular school. If I said I attended "a madrassa" today, I would mean an Islamic religious school, because nobody else in Canada uses "madrassa" to mean anything else. I would assume the same is true in Indonesia, but perhaps not, I'm just guessing.

-Jester

[Hammerskjold]

What's the word for school in Indonesian?

"Sekolah".

If I said I attended "school" today, I would mean a secular school. If I said I attended "a madrassa" today, I would mean an Islamic religious school, because nobody else in Canada uses "madrassa" to mean anything else. I would assume the same is true in Indonesia, but perhaps not, I'm just guessing.

-Jester

If I understand you right, that's about right. At least when I was there at the time.:) Hey, technically I got ties to extremist Muslims too! Yay, it's like playing 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon. (edited addition: I think there's something lost in the translation or someone is playing up the 'Islamofascisterrorist' boogyman with this thing. The word 'sekolah' is used for pretty much almost any kind of school. It's a more correct term if you just want to say ,'school'. 'Madrassa' to mean school is kind of correct but in an archaic way, and usually more specific in a modern context.)

Another thing to keep in mind and in context (not addressed to you really, just to folks who's worried that anyone who spent time in Indonesia is somehow turned into a sleeper agent of Wahabism), Islam in Indonesia is no more monolithic than Christianity is in the U.S. or anywhere else for that matter. I found this to be a good article to sort of get a perspective on Islam and Indonesia.

http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Indonesian/Isla...20Indonesia.htm

[Lissa]

McCain's changed. He drank the neocon koolaid after Bush beat him out in 2000 and I don't know that he can be trusted anymore. It's nice that a guy who was a POW thinks waterboarding is okay, really. Torture is absolutely necessary for the safety of our country :wacko:.

No Quark, McCain is against torture, he thinks that Congress should not be telling the CIA how to conduct it's interogations. He abhors torture, but he doesn't think interrogation techniques should be legislated. Big difference there.

[Jester]

No Quark, McCain is against torture, he thinks that Congress should not be telling the CIA how to conduct it's interogations. He abhors torture, but he doesn't think interrogation techniques should be legislated. Big difference there.

It really doesn't matter what his personal feelings on the matter are. He is running for a political office, and if he thinks the government shouldn't be telling the CIA what they can and can't do, how is that functionally different from just letting them torture people?

-Jester

[Taem]

No Quark, McCain is against torture, he thinks that Congress should not be telling the CIA how to conduct it's interogations. He abhors torture, but he doesn't think interrogation techniques should be legislated. Big difference there.

I was at work earlier today and wanted to make this reply but you beat me too it. You can read about Mccain's points of view on that subject here.

[Taem]

It really doesn't matter what his personal feelings on the matter are. He is running for a political office, and if he thinks the government shouldn't be telling the CIA what they can and can't do, how is that functionally different from just letting them torture people?

-Jester

Okay... how about this. McCain pushes for a torture ban, and Bush, under pressure, accepts his proposal. Care to rethink that Jester?

[Taem]

The impression I have been getting from MANY people is that Obama's stepfather was an extremist, however afters searching the net, I cannot find any information to corroborate this. It seems like a story cooked up by the media and bought by many, including me. Here is a quote from the report on CNN:

Fox News executive Bill Shine told CNN "Reliable Sources" anchor Howard Kurtz that some of the network's hosts were simply expressing their opinions and repeatedly cited Insight as the source of the allegations.

It's unfortunate misinformation get become stated as "fact" even in this day and age.

[Vandiablo]

Okay... how about this. McCain pushes for a torture ban, and Bush, under pressure, accepts his proposal. Care to rethink that Jester?

Jester doesn't need to rethink anything:

and if he thinks the government shouldn't be telling the CIA what they can and can't do, how is that functionally different from just letting them torture people?

Read the "if" part.

It looks like Lissa was mistaken, but Jester's comment still stands.

[Jester]

Okay... how about this. McCain pushes for a torture ban, and Bush, under pressure, accepts his proposal. Care to rethink that Jester?

You are correct, John McCain has been vocal and consistent in opposing torture.

He also specifically defines waterboarding as torture, and my hat is off to him for that. The Straight Talk express may not have much steam left, but it's got at least that much.

How, then, he sleeps at night knowing he is the heir apparent to a man who has tried to dramatically extend such measures is a mystery to me.

-Jester

Afterthought: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/29/washingt...gewanted=1&_r=1

McCain's stated public position is clear, but his willingness to let Bush keep the power to decide on interrogation techniques is disturbing, given the man's past record with such things.

More specifically pertaining to waterboarding: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/washingt...nd-cong.html?hp

[Vandiablo]

It's unfortunate misinformation get become stated as "fact" even in this day and age.

"Even in this day and age"??? This has been going on for eons.

And now you can see the problem with Fox "News". Most of it is just "opinions". First they recite an item that is one or two facts that have been twisted, then they go to some "expert", such as skeletor-maiden Ann Coulter, who rails nasty opinions, or someone else dressed nicely who gives the same negative spin, and then back to the anchors who wrap it all up with some historical "facts" that cast the same negative light -- and then if it's an election year they cut to scenes of their favorite candidate campaigning on the issue.

My parents watch Fox and listen to Rush and they've told me:
- Obama is a big racist, because his pastor is one
- The Arctic Ocean has frozen this winter the most in thousands of years

My reaction to the 2nd was WTF? I looked up what they were talking about. It seems we're in a La Nina, and we've had the coldest winter (globally) in about 12 years. But the way the retros on the Web were talking, it had "counteracted 100 years of warming." Pure BS. And the way my parents remember it from Fox was that the ice was spread the most in a thousand years. A much bigger pile of pure BS. To put it in terms a Republican might understand, it's like saying that stocks are not going up in general because some days the DOW drops 2 or 3 hundred points.

I've also heard Rush say that all the species going extinct lately is a "hoax". His proof? That scientists have been finding new species in places like New Guinea. What a big effin arsehole, what drug is he on now? BTW, Rush is an entertainer, not a scientist. Obviously.

Anyway, "this day and age" -- I guess youngsters figure that the truth is more evident with all this technology, but to me it seems the opposite: the technology is just making the lies travel faster and corroborate each other faster.

BRACE YOURSELF for 8 more months of Rovian Lies! Do you think that Rove left the white house because the pres didn't want him any more?? No, Rove left so that he can sabotage the Democrats. Prepare for the likes of Swift Boats and Black Bastard Babies. DON'T BELIEVE WHAT YOU HEAR! Wait for proof! Wait for "proof" to be scrutinized! (Remember those forged documents about Bush's Natl Guard time?) Exercise skepticism!

-V

ps. I don't think McCain would allow Rove in the White House, but once the conservatives remove Pres. McCain, Rove will be back!

edit: Had to kick out Ms. Pelling

[Jester]

I was at work earlier today and wanted to make this reply but you beat me too it. You can read about Mccain's points of view on that subject here.

I spent a few minutes poking around there... where is his view on this topic? I found his view on every other thing under the rainbow, but not that one.

-Jester

[Taem]

I spent a few minutes poking around there... where is his view on this topic? I found his view on every other thing under the rainbow, but not that one.

-Jester

No you are right. I swear I read something about it a week or two ago on that page when my political interest really started to peak, but alas, it is not there. I apologize, perhaps I read it somewhere else. This is the only thing I saw that comes close on that site, but it doesn't mention torture specifically:

During more than five years as a POW in Vietnam, John McCain experienced the worst assaults on human dignity imaginable. Yet each day he also saw in his fellow prisoners the power of human compassion and the will to prevail against unimaginable evil. It is this experience, and a life dedicated to public service, that has imbued in John McCain a fundamental commitment to the protection of human dignity that will shape his presidency.

[Quark]

No Quark, McCain is against torture, he thinks that Congress should not be telling the CIA how to conduct it's interogations. He abhors torture, but he doesn't think interrogation techniques should be legislated. Big difference there.

Yes, I'm sure it's everything about government powers and nothing about wanting to pander to the right for something that should not be negotiable.

Anyone willing to believe McCain now is anything like he said he was in 2000 is being delusional. Here's a guy who helped campaign finance reform, right? Too bad he's breaking the rules and getting away with it when it comes to campaign financing. In the middle of a difficult decision, the economic stimulus package, where McCain touted his own plan and then had to weigh in on the measure of the Senate? He didn't vote. How about FISA, where the Senate ridiculously tried to give retroactive immunity to the phone companies for helping the government spy on us? McCain voted to keep the immunity in (Clinton, by the way, didn't vote). At least the House is standing up for us there. McCain claimed Bush's tax cuts were explicitly for the rich and voted against them - now he says he'll make them permanent. He hates lobbying, but his campaign staff is literally crawling with lobbyists.

McCain is a panderer, plain and simple.