Hellgate:London

[Thecla]

Actually it is crippled and seriously so. I did not buy the game; I am playing the "beta" version but aside from not being able to advance into Monument Station the beta version is the full version and it is very lacking.

I think your comments are accurate in some ways; but, despite rough edges in the release (many things could've been much more polished than they were), I take a different perspective on the game --- though I'm pretty sure that anyone who does want to play HG:L on a consistent basis is going to have to subscribe, if they think it's worth it. And the "elite" version (available on the test servers in the beta, and I think now to anyone who buys the game) is a much tougher version of the standard game, and it's something like what the good Diablo Mods were to the original Diablo.

My main complaint is that to get more storage space I would have to buy a monthly subscription.

I'm not at all sure this should be the main issue, even for people who don't like the game. Subscribers aren't that much worse off than non-subscribers in this regard --- too much of nothing is just as tough. Why they're so stingy on item-storage space I don't quite understand; and I also wonder how the character-naming thing will go, since it seems like names never expire but people are on region-wide servers.

This is very wrong in a game that spams your inventory with useless garbage (you can not select the items you want to pick up; the game does it for you when you hit "F" and it will fill your inventory with so much crap that I spend half my time dealing with that trash. In addition to the regular decon trash those who are playing online will be spammed with many Halloween Event items, some of which stack only to "2".). The only way to create more mobile storage space without visiting town every 5 kills is to de-construct items and this requires, you guessed it, an open inventory. While the inventory is open you cannot attack or defend so pray nothing spawns on top of you while you are sorting through all your "treasures" that the "f-key" got for you. If you want to party with strangers I recommend mastering the techinique of deconstructing on the fly to lessen game play interruptions.

As pointed out elsewhere, you can select what you pick up: you target the item you want to pick up and then hit F. I found this system very easy to use and efficient. I also ended like the deconstruction system --- you take up 9 inventory slots, 8 for the scrap types (4 normal and 4 rare) and 1 for a big stack of analyzers to id anything you might be interested in (still seems unanswered whether id + deconstruct is the same as deconstruct, but that's a minor issue), and then you can put to use anything you find without having to go back to town. If your party members aren't willing to put up with that momentary delay, well I'd say that's not surprising in general D2 terms, but it's hardly something unique to HG:L as opposed to the internet. It is true that you can get interupted by monsters while doing this, but IMO it's a positive feature of the game that you can't just stand in a previously cleared area with total impunity.

There is no postal service in the game so transferring items to friends or other characters must be done online with the help of someone else.

This is defintely a problem, but I'm sure it will be fixed.

The memory leak has been improved upon since last Friday's patch but game freezing and crashes are still common. Some people might think this is okay for a new game but I disagree.

I've experienced a few crashes/freezes in the release game, and (unlike the beta) I don't think that's ok. It does seem that, for whatever reason, FSS didn't have time to fix all those issues before they released the game (not to mention some basic --- and frequently repeated --- gamplay issues, like engineer drones losing their guns).

The scenery is uninspired. Even classic Diablo had better dungeon layouts.

I agree that there's too much linearity in the dungeon layouts, but I think a lot of the scenery is really well-done.

Many of the class skills seem to be poorly developed as if the entire class was an afterthought. The inability to see what effect attribute points have combined with no option to change point distribution and only 3 character creation slots further cripples Hellgate for those who want to experiment with different character classes and skill specializations. Deleting a character is NOT a viable option to me.

I actually believe that the whole character/skll/stat/item/combat system in HG:L is pretty interesting, but it's not what one might assume from other games. I don't claim to understand it at all myself, but I think there's a lot more there than what you might see from a superficial glance. For example, items require stat points to equip them, and that's what seems to drive your stat distribution; in turn, the items you equip depend on your character class, and how you want to play that character. Some skills (reduced willpower/strenght feed) reduce your stat requirements, and low lvl skills increase in power as your character lvls, so it's not at all clear that saving up skill pts for high lvl skills is the best (nor is it the worst) strategy,

In combat, there are 4 different special effects, with subsiduary secondary effects (poison-prevent heal, shock-prevent skill use, ignite-5% reduction in life, phase-50% increase in da taken and 50% decrease in da given), which can be applied both through items and skills, and which your character may take from demons.

[LochnarITB]

Just a couple observations of my own I would like to add.

First, I think that they need to dial down the respawn rate on the multiplayer, at least when it is being played solo. Right now, if you have to step away from the computer, the only real options are to clear to the end of the particular instance or port back to a station and abandon pretty much any progress made. Heck, in the train tunnels, I've cleared one set to the next "depot" and had to go back to the previous "depot" because I didn't clear a side tunnel. It will already have fully spawned and might even be nastier than when I had just been there. Of course, I don't know how this relates to single player as I don't have my retail copy yet and have been playing off my beta key. Even so, I am assuming that solo-muti will be the way people end up playing solo, just as they did with the Diablos.

The other is item storage, both character and stash. I have come to the conclusion that they are forcing the deconstruction process. It looks like cash is going to be a minor issue. Once in a while, there is a piece of equipment being sold that is better than what you are using, but cash mostly is there only to purchase supplies, and killing stuff often brings more of those than needed too. When I'm out on a quest, I deconstruct most equipment and hold just a couple that either look like they will be an upgrade or bring good cash for restocking. My stash ends up being just saved mods and deconstructed parts, along with a piece or two of equipment that is waiting for stats to catch up to it. Has anyone found reason to save multiple sets of equipment for different situations? My equipment seems to mold to my play style rather than needing different sets to apply my play style to different situations.

Overall, I am mostly having fun. I do have a retail copy on the way even though my gaming funds are rather limited. They certainly have work to do on the game yet. I wish that it was realistic to expect fully polished gaming software these days, but I think it is unrealistic given the size of the production it is to get to retail with a game. If it was something life critical, I would be more likely to have such grand expectations but I would also expect to pay a great deal more for my fun too.

[Quark]

My stash ends up being just saved mods and deconstructed parts, along with a piece or two of equipment that is waiting for stats to catch up to it.

It's good for your character strength that you keep deconstructing. Upgrading constantly, especially your weapons, is better than waiting on possible weapon drops. For Evokers especially, constantly upgrading at least on of your focus items as the focus item that reduces costs by 10% can really help.

[LochnarITB]

It's good for your character strength that you keep deconstructing. Upgrading constantly, especially your weapons, is better than waiting on possible weapon drops. For Evokers especially, constantly upgrading at least one of your focus items as the focus item that reduces costs by 10% can really help.

That brings up a question. Is it advantageous for an evoker to wield two focus items? I use a dart gun with a focus item. I have so much fun watching the darts hanging out of mobs right until they blow to bits that I never really considered taking the talent. I can see having two to get the effects off both but it seems limiting as far as the fun of the other weapon types.

[roguebanshee]

That brings up a question. Is it advantageous for an evoker to wield two focus items?

Only if you want increased damage with your spells. Also remember that Evoker skills (except those shared) show up on foci but not on other Cabalist weapons.

Thecla:

still seems unanswered whether id + deconstruct is the same as deconstruct, but that's a minor issue)

At one point in the beta it was stated by a dev that deconstructed items give materials based on their sell value. An item increases in value if it is identified.

[LochnarITB]

An item increases in value if it is identified.

Has anyone else tried comparing the value pre and post id? I've done it with a few items and everyone increased in value by 20. Is that the case for all level items? That would mean that identifying an item you are sure you are going to sell is a net loss of 5 (+20 value - 25 for analyzer).

[Baajikiil]

Has anyone else tried comparing the value pre and post id? I've done it with a few items and everyone increased in value by 20. Is that the case for all level items? That would mean that identifying an item you are sure you are going to sell is a net loss of 5 (+20 value - 25 for analyzer).

No, the higher value items do increase their selling price when identified. From what I've seen, basically anything under 100 Pal is not going to be worth identifying before selling. But if you have something worth around 300 Pal before ID, it will gain maybe a hundred or so.

I'm still unsure if you need to ID items before deconstucting them, but it seems like you still get plenty of components even if you don't ID them.

[Thecla]

That brings up a question. Is it advantageous for an evoker to wield two focus items?

I like the evokers a lot.

In my opinion, it's much better to use two focus items as your primary set up on an evoker. The two focus items both add to your skill damage (which depends on your focus weapon damages) and they make a big difference, especially if you keep them upgraded (up to max of five times now) or keep replacing them with higher damage foci as you level up. You can always put a focus weapons and a pistol on one switch, and a two-handed cabalist rifle on the other switch for special occasions.

[Quark]

Also, the official boards are already full of junk, such as one person claiming he has "thoroughly tested" it and the 2nd evoker weapon doesn't actually add damage unless it's through mods like +% damage -> he's wrong.

Originally, the damage was straight added. Dual-focus builds were the only way to go if you wanted to use any skills. About halfway through alpha it changed so that the second focus adds 50% of its damage to your skill damage - the same happened to Blademasters - and they upped the overall damage to compensate. Though dual-weapon is still the best, alternative styles are now more viable.

[Thecla]

Also, the official boards are already full of junk

Well, I suppose that's a good thing, really --- if they weren't it would mean that almost no one was playing the game.

Originally, the damage was straight added. Dual-focus builds were the only way to go if you wanted to use any skills. About halfway through alpha it changed so that the second focus adds 50% of its damage to your skill damage - the same happened to Blademasters - and they upped the overall damage to compensate. Though dual-weapon is still the best, alternative styles are now more viable.

Well, as I saw it, the funny thing originally was that some cabalist rifles were so powerful that (at least in the starting stages of the game) even evokers were better off using rifles than skills. They made some appropriate rebalances, so that a dual-focus evoker is now more damaging than a no-focus evoker, but I absolutely agree that alternative styles are still viable.

[oldmandennis]

Random anecdotal evidence - I had a friend try a "gunvoker" and gave it up as impractical about 18 or so.

Also - its getting a bit boring. Here's hoping act 4-5 turn it up a notch. I'm starting to lose interest in playing through the same dark sewers in elite mode.

[roguebanshee]

Well, as I saw it, the funny thing originally was that some cabalist rifles were so powerful that (at least in the starting stages of the game) even evokers were better off using rifles than skills.

The joy of mega-AoE, extreme damage Lava Launchers.:D

Not that the Blightcaster was that much worse...

[Monkey]

Actually, this is incorrect. You target the items with a general movement of the mouse, by pointing your body towards them, and then by pressing the F button you acquire the "highlighted" item. While multiple items stacked very close to one another will be difficult to cherry pick, this generally only occurs with Boss monsters. The rest of the time you should have no trouble choosing what to pick up and what to ignore, with but a simple mouse gesture of mere centimeters.

PROTIP: When looking at a pile of loot from a boss, then names will "stack" away from you into the distance. Hitting 'F' pulls in the top item (i.e., the name that appears closest to you). Hovering your targeting reticle over a lower item brings it to the top, so that you can select exactly what you want. This works even better if you run through the stack first to auto-loot the [edit] Palladium.

[Xiuhcoatl]

Just a couple observations of my own I would like to add.

First, I think that they need to dial down the respawn rate on the multiplayer, at least when it is being played solo. Right now, if you have to step away from the computer, the only real options are to clear to the end of the particular instance or port back to a station and abandon pretty much any progress made. Heck, in the train tunnels, I've cleared one set to the next "depot" and had to go back to the previous "depot" because I didn't clear a side tunnel. It will already have fully spawned and might even be nastier than when I had just been there. Of course, I don't know how this relates to single player as I don't have my retail copy yet and have been playing off my beta key. Even so, I am assuming that solo-muti will be the way people end up playing solo, just as they did with the Diablos.

There is no penalty for dying and corpse runs are quick so the respawn rate is not a big deal when afk'ing although when I go afk in-game with my guardian I throw up L2 shield wall (the L25 shield skill) before I do. I recommend playing with others if you are online as the experience can enrich the life of the game unless you are very antisocial like Thecla (I have played classic Diablo with him on b.net so he is not as antisocial as he likes people to believe). All loot drops are "tagged" for each player so you don't have to worry about someone else taking what is yours; they can't see/pick up your drops.

The other is item storage, both character and stash. I have come to the conclusion that they are forcing the deconstruction process. It looks like cash is going to be a minor issue. Once in a while, there is a piece of equipment being sold that is better than what you are using, but cash mostly is there only to purchase supplies, and killing stuff often brings more of those than needed too. When I'm out on a quest, I deconstruct most equipment and hold just a couple that either look like they will be an upgrade or bring good cash for restocking. My stash ends up being just saved mods and deconstructed parts, along with a piece or two of equipment that is waiting for stats to catch up to it. Has anyone found reason to save multiple sets of equipment for different situations? My equipment seems to mold to my play style rather than needing different sets to apply my play style to different situations.

I keep two sets of gear for my characters: "+ luck" which is what I always wear and "+ optimization". I could as well deconstruct the second set since I rarely switch my armor. I have over +200 luck on my guardian and the drops do seem better than before but it could be just lucky random rolls. If I play the game again I will do further testing to see if + luck items are worth it. The only items I keep are legendary or better and items with good skills and mod slots (both on the same item).

Other observations:
Dual wielding focus items with the evoker adds considerable dps from what I've experienced, especially when they have +skills. Since cash is scarce in the game do not spend it on adding properties to your gear; save it to enhance a higher level legendary or unique item. If you think you need upgrades then use the decon mats instead. IMO upgrades are not necessary unless your loot drops have been under par. A friend who was also in the beta told me that unidentified items sell for the same price to a vendor as identified ones. I didn't ask him how he tested this since it was not something I was interested in knowing; I am in the habit of identifying everything and deconstructing it afterwards.

I read somewhere, perhaps on the beta forum, that a postal system might be implemented for subscribers. If this is true then the observation that others have made about the developers requiring a fee (subscription or expansion pack) for everything that is not already included is correct. Even without a fee for a mail box my opinion about this game being crippled stands and if my opinions seem overly hostile I will not apologize.

P.S. Hi Ashock, Lissa; I hope you guys are still having fun with WoW. I might try the 10 day free trial but since I haven't played in over two years I will be a L60 noob. The gankers will undoubtedly love me. ;)

[LochnarITB]

A friend who was also in the beta told me that unidentified items sell for the same price to a vendor as identified ones.

Identified items definitely sell for more than unidentified. At a certain point, you do gain more than the 25 an analyzer costs (if for some reason you don't end up with all the analyzer drops you need). I don't know why I ran into a string of identifications that gained exactly 20 palladium, but I wonder if that is the minimum improvement in sell price. BTW, it is easy to tell that the sell price increases. You hover the pointer over the item pre and post identify to see the corresponding sale prices.

[Taem]

The game is everything I thought it would be, but still not quite as fun as I imagined; I think the main problem is the scenery - same damn thing over and over and over... getting real sick of it. Seriously, no matter how "different" each area/act may be in terms of scenery, it still all manages to look the same. I miss the look and feel of fresh trees and vibrant colors. That was the best part of D1 was going back to town; in D2 its everywhere you go. I was totally considering getting a subscription so I could play hardcore, however the scenery thing is a big let down for me - constant negative scenery makes me depressed and I don't like that feeling. Also, I've had a good share of monsters 1-hit kill me, making hardcore seemingly impossible at this point.

Just my observations thus far, 4-days into the game (maybe 12-playing hours total).

[Artega]

I remember D2 being very monotonous. Each act looked different, but within that act, everything looked the same. The same way with Diablo's different sections of the labyrinth.

You'd think a game released, what, seven years after the former and more than ten after the latter wouldn't do that, though:)

[Occhidiangela]

This is defintely a problem, but I'm sure it will be fixed.

Ha.

You say this about roughly the same team who gave us the MS bug in Diablo I, and the various non fixed bugs, Sanctuary comes to mind, in Diablo II.

Buzzard Goes to Buckingham Palace, with Alice.

Pooh on such expectations. :P

I'd prepare to take the game, warts and all, and expect nothing to be fixed. That way, any features that are modified will be a pleasant surprise.

When will they add lances to the game? :D

Occhi

[Warlock]

I've enjoyed the game a lot so far (recently completing Normal difficultly with a single player generalist Evoker). Very impressed with the character design - no more "I'm specced for Frozen Orb so I will never use anything else". Yes, it has a few rough edges and probably will for a while but I haven't had so much fun with a computer game in a long time.

[Thecla]

I'd prepare to take the game, warts and all, and expect nothing to be fixed. That way, any features that are modified will be a pleasant surprise.

Ok --- I'll amend my previous statement to: "I hope this will be fixed".:)

But there are a couple of significant differences between HG:L and either Diablo. The good news is that FSS has said they're commited to continual game updates, in a way they weren't able to do with Diablo (hence, they would say, the subscription option). The bad news is that HG:L was, unfortunately, launched in an incomplete state, with a lot of bugs (crashes, bad UI, quests, skills,..) and features that aren't fully implemented (reputations, achievement points, shared stash, auction house...). Whatever complaints one might have about Diablo (or WoW) at launch, the issues with HG:L are much worse, I'm sorry to say.

I guess FSS decided that, for whatever reason, they needed to get the game out and they'd fix up any problems "going forward". So actually I do think, unlike Diablo, a lot of things in HG:L will be fixed. Probably the main obstacle will be how well the game does financially. If they get a lot of sales and a lot of subscription, or founders accounts, then they'll have the resources to fix it up. I do get the impression that FSS is working on a shoestring compared with Blizzard, say --- and clearly WoW has vast resources for its development. So if HG:L flops the whole thing may go down the toilet.

Beyond this, there may be a bigger issue of how many people want to play a Diablo-style hack'n slash game (which HG:L defintely is, and IMO a good one ) versus an EQ/WoW-type MMORPG.