WoW Stratics IRC Chat

[NuurAbSaal]

snip

This is one of the best posts about tanking in TBC I have ever read. And it's from a mage:)

I salute you.

take care
Tarabulus

[Taelas]

I'm reticent to use the words "main tank" because I don't really see what's all that "main" about being the boss-target, except for (occasionally) taking more damage. Sure, if you don't tank the boss he'll run around owning the raid, but if you don't tank the adds or off-tank the boss, you'll also die, just in a different way. A failure in either area means you lose.

The main tank is the one who gets all the glory (so to speak). Tanking adds does not require the same quality of gear either, so if you have someone who's constantly off-tanking but doing other jobs as well, he probably won't upgrade his gear anywhere near as much as the main tanks (which will effectively ensure he'll never do anything but off-tank).

And there are encounters without off-tanking where this doesn't even apply.

[Skandranon]

The main tank is the one who gets all the glory (so to speak). Tanking adds does not require the same quality of gear either, so if you have someone who's constantly off-tanking but doing other jobs as well, he probably won't upgrade his gear anywhere near as much as the main tanks (which will effectively ensure he'll never do anything but off-tank).

There's enough gear dropping to outfit everyone eventually. Now, if it's a glory thing, I respect that, but the answer is: that's an emotional preference and not a problem with game design. If you want the "glory" (which varies between raid groups, not everyone oohs and aahs over the boss target tank) roll a warrior. Druids aren't, as a matter of game design, screwed because they lack "glory".

And there are encounters without off-tanking where this doesn't even apply.

I agree it doesn't apply when there's no off-tanking. But there are no encounters in TK/SSC that involve a single boss-target-tank and no other tanks in the encounter. So yes, it doesn't apply when there's no off-tanking, but part of my point is that Blizzard is designing encounters that from this point forward will all or nearly all include a non-warrior tanking role.

Yes, druids are no good when there's nothing to offtank. Blizzard's solution is to make sure they always have something to offtank.

[Tal]

The main tank is the one who gets all the glory (so to speak). Tanking adds does not require the same quality of gear either, so if you have someone who's constantly off-tanking but doing other jobs as well, he probably won't upgrade his gear anywhere near as much as the main tanks (which will effectively ensure he'll never do anything but off-tank).

And there are encounters without off-tanking where this doesn't even apply.

A good raid leader will make sure that upgrades are spread around evenly. I speak from the experience of losing a 8/8 wrath warrior MT to burn out.

Edit: And as a present MT more often than not I can tell you that the glory doesn't go to us but to the team.

The one time I really "shone" as a warrior was when I picked up Nefarion after the MT died and managed to shield wall the last 2% with the only healer on fumes.

[Taelas]

There's enough gear dropping to outfit everyone eventually. Now, if it's a glory thing, I respect that, but the answer is: that's an emotional preference and not a problem with game design. If you want the "glory" (which varies between raid groups, not everyone oohs and aahs over the boss target tank) roll a warrior. Druids aren't, as a matter of game design, screwed because they lack "glory".

"Eventually"? How far between "now" and "eventually"? Three-four months? More? That's enough time for the next big instance to open up, and new gear becoming available... and that's only relevant for bleeding edge groups; the rest will simply continue to advance through the old content.

As for rolling a warrior for the "glory", no. I have a Protection warrior (which got me interested in tanking in the first place). I prefer tanking, but I want to have other options available. When it comes down to it, I'm willing to give up the main tank spot to warriors who give up all other options, but that doesn't mean I should never get any time in the spotlight.

I agree it doesn't apply when there's no off-tanking. But there are no encounters in TK/SSC that involve a single boss-target-tank and no other tanks in the encounter. So yes, it doesn't apply when there's no off-tanking, but part of my point is that Blizzard is designing encounters that from this point forward will all or nearly all include a non-warrior tanking role.

Yes, druids are no good when there's nothing to offtank. Blizzard's solution is to make sure they always have something to offtank.

Except you can accomplish it by not having druids (which is RIGHT; no class should be 'required' to progress), which means we're somewhat redundant. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing.

By and large, I'm pretty satisfied with the tanking scene as it is now. It could be tons better--it could actually include paladins post-Karazhan, for example--but it's more or less good enough.

And there are actually a lot of single-tank encounters in Karazhan. Of course, Karazhan is hardly end-game, but it is still what most raid groups are up against.

[Taelas]

A good raid leader will make sure that upgrades are spread around evenly. I speak from the experience of losing a 8/8 wrath warrior MT to burn out.

That's admirable. It can also cause your raid group to completely stall.

You can't dictate drops, after all. To use the Wrath example, you might end up with four or five 2/8 tanks. Sure, eventually they'll get geared up, but if you keep farming the same place week after week, people start burning out. A lot of people never saw their T2 pants because MC had been farmed to death already and people wanted to move on.

Edit: And as a present MT more often than not I can tell you that the glory doesn't go to us but to the team.

The one time I really "shone" as a warrior was when I picked up Nefarion after the MT died and managed to shield wall the last 2% with the only healer on fumes.

Most rank-and-file raid group members don't really see off-tanks unless something goes wrong and said off-tank have to step up to the plate and tank the boss. That's my experience, of course, and yours may differ.

[Skandranon]

"Eventually"? How far between "now" and "eventually"? Three-four months? More? That's enough time for the next big instance to open up, and new gear becoming available... and that's only relevant for bleeding edge groups; the rest will simply continue to advance through the old content.

Right. For non-bleeding edge groups, they'll take longer to learn new encounters, which means an extended period of farming old content, which means more than enough loot for everyone. It works out for the vast majority of raiding groups, which are not bleeding-edge.

As for rolling a warrior for the "glory", no. I have a Protection warrior (which got me interested in tanking in the first place). I prefer tanking, but I want to have other options available. When it comes down to it, I'm willing to give up the main tank spot to warriors who give up all other options, but that doesn't mean I should never get any time in the spotlight.

Well, a couple things. For one, it's preference at work again. You'd prefer to do other things, so as a result, you'll see less time in the main tank spot. For another, there are a number (obviously not all, but some) of encounters which are optimally main-tanked by a druid. See Leotheras the Blind, an encounter where every protection warrior you bring is a liability (he's optimally tanked by three or four druids, maybe a paladin, and the encounter gets moderately harder with every prot warrior in your raid because they have literally nothing to do). Which is to say, in addition to carving out an off-tank role for non-warrior tanks on every fight, Blizzard has also designed some fights to be main-tanked by non-warriors, leading to some justifiable annoyance on the part of Prot warriors. Being present at a fight where you cannot meaningfully contribute has to be a frustrating experience.

Except you can accomplish it by not having druids (which is RIGHT; no class should be 'required' to progress), which means we're somewhat redundant. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing.

Arguably you can progress without warriors, too. You can boss-tank anything with a druid, it's just harder. Sure, crushing blows hurt, but druids have higher armour. Occasionally there's going to be a crush-crit spike that kills your tank and wipes your raid, though. Compare that with, say, Ember of Al'ar tanking. Sure, you can do it with a warrior, intercept is a fairly nice tool and mostly will get them under control. Occasionally the ember is going to get out of control, kill several people and wipe the raid, though.

It's not so different.

(Hydross, in case you're wondering, is so easy now, post-nerf, that greens of X protection are more than sufficient to tank him. So Warriors' epic resist plate is an advantage but not a dominating one.)

[Warlock]

600 DPS with no raid-benefiting debuffs or buffs (literally, all they can do is provide another Shout, since Sunder is covered by the tank.) Even a Retrinoob would be better in that slot (not that they can't do modest DPS; it's just that Holy is a much better tree than both Protection and Retribution for PvE.)

Druid #2 doesn't even bring the shout. It does bring another Innervate and another Rebirth though.

My own take on the issue - the current situation is pretty good. It's certianly a LOT better for Druid tanks than it was pre-BC. A tanking Druid will get to tank fairly often without doing it all the time - I actually prefer my role in Kara (tank #1 or #2 depending on the group but also healing or in kitty sometimes) to my 5-man role (near pure tank). I'll never do the 25 mans so can't comment on my role in them.

Paladin tanks are a lot better now too, being much more accepted in 5-man play, though still in need of work for raid tanking.

Both classes need raid level tanking itemisation. Gear with all five stats and +heal is not tank gear. However I consider Druid PVP (and specifically Arena) a bigger issue for the class than tanking ability right now.

[oldmandennis]

That's admirable. It can also cause your raid group to completely stall.

Not to say that where your raid is at should invalidate your comments... But looking at the warriors in your guild, who is taking all of the "defender" loot? I see exactly one reasonably geared main tank, and in my opinion it's fine to steer the first drops to him (I've volentairly passed loot to our #1 warrior). But after that you guys have a huge drop off - tanking warriors who can't even finish normal steamvaults for example. People using green or white gems. Any rational raid group that is concerned at all about progress should steer loot towards their #1 bear over warriors who don't even make a minimal effort to get their preraid gear. Heck my warrior outclasses some of your guys in some slots, and he's a level 69 pvp toy!

The point is, with the new token system, you no longer have huge dry spells on gear. "Defender" gear should drop often enough to gear up your MT and your first few OT's. For off-set items, druids and warriors don't really compete on most items.

And Warlock, druid #2 brings higher DPS, and extra innervate and brez, and ilotp.

[Tal]

That's admirable. It can also cause your raid group to completely stall.

You can't dictate drops, after all. To use the Wrath example, you might end up with four or five 2/8 tanks. Sure, eventually they'll get geared up, but if you keep farming the same place week after week, people start burning out. A lot of people never saw their T2 pants because MC had been farmed to death already and people wanted to move on.

You're talking to someone who never completed the Might set (6/8) or Wrath (7/8) which ran with a Alliance of guilds that saw maybe three sets of mage pants drop in MC. I know all about burn out. But I also know how painful a setback it can be to see your best geared warriors drop out.

I'd rather have slower progression than none at all if it hinges on one person being able to show up to every raid.

[Monkey]

This is one of the best posts about tanking in TBC I have ever read. And it's from a mage:)

I salute you.

take care
Tarabulus

I agree--Skandranon has me all fired up to respec feral and go raiding...well, almost. ;)