World Cup Discussion Thread

[Occhidiangela]

Laugh if you will - la seleccion will not be denied. Our time has finally come. We will rise by the golden boot of David Villas.
:w00t:

Well, even if you don't win, eat some Tapas, and drink a few cervezas. :D

[Chaerophon]

Well, even if you don't win, eat some Tapas, and drink a few cervezas. :D

That's the plan.:D Interesting thought - I've never even really considered Spanish beer. Ever tried any? I'll have to look into it. A few of my friends and I have decided that although we aren't really soccer fans (most of us are ex-hockey players who don't have a clue), we're going to pretend that we are, get together to watch some games (mostly reruns) and get in on the fun. We're rapidly becoming fans in the process.

BTW Occhi, after next Thursday, I'm finally going to be able to get to reading Born Fighting (between cervezas, that is). Thanks again.

[Occhidiangela]

BTW Occhi, after next Thursday, I'm finally going to be able to get to reading Born Fighting (between cervezas, that is). Thanks again.

Note, not on Soccer (OT) The author just won the Democratic Primary in Virginia, and will be running for Senate against the Republican incumbent. In a break with common practice, Senator Shumer, and others, from the party threw their weight behind a newbie, rather than the loyal party hound Webb over came, in the belief that Allen is vunlerable and that Webb is a "closer to moderate" Democrat (he used to be Ronald Reagan's Secretary of the Navy and a Republican) who will attract many swing voters, and numerous moderate Republicans who are leary of where that party is headed.

Occhi

[Flymo]

Hi

Anybody else see the Argentine vs. Serbia-Montenegro game? 6:0:w00t:

I drew Serbia & Montenegro in the office sweepstake :(

Still, there is a £10 booby prize if they come last :D

[Nystul]

Something about international football has always driven me crazy, and certainly hasn't gotten any better. It's this pansy flopping bit. I understand that if you get tripped you will fall, and if you get a hard kick in the shin it will really hurt for a minute. But instant replay so often reveals a different story...

And apparently now, it's not just enough to fall on the ground and pretend you got kicked in the shin and are in agonizing pain (when in fact you stumbled over the other player's foot). Your shin injury is apparently so severe that a stretcher is actually needed to drag your corpse off the field. But it must be some kind of magical stretcher, because by the time it gets to the sideline you are ready to jump back in the game and run windsprints.

It drives me crazy, because the guy already has gotten the proper whistle for the foul call. Now you are just trying to get some player ejected for something he didn't do. To me this is kindergarten sportsmanship, and I don't understand why it is tolerated in this sport.

[Chaerophon]

I agree. International soccer needs a little more of this:

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/sp...9cae612&k=44356

[eppie]

Hi

Anybody else see the Argentine vs. Serbia-Montenegro game? 6:0:w00t:

Much more impressive than anything the Brazilians have shown! IMHO this could be the year where the Argentinians win the worldcup!

Argentina does never win when they are not playing at home, with a battalion of armed forces next to the field..just in case.<_<

[eppie]

Something about international football has always driven me crazy, and certainly hasn't gotten any better. It's this pansy flopping bit. I understand that if you get tripped you will fall, and if you get a hard kick in the shin it will really hurt for a minute. But instant replay so often reveals a different story...

Your absoltely right. It is a combination of bad referees and see how far you can go....and as long as falling over with a lot of rolling and crying gives results..people will keep doing it.

The thing with football is that there is a strong feeling against using electronic gadgets to help referee the game. The offside rule is an example of something that might benefit a lot from some kind of system.
If you analyse all the offside cases that were close (1 meter scale I mean), you will probably see that around half of the decissions made by the linesmen were wrong......and these close cases are not even the reason why the offside rule was 'invented'.

Furthermore, after watching Holland-Ivory coast I was very happy of course. We now have to play against the strong Argentina (in my opinion the strongest team at the moment) but whatever the result is we continue anyway......just a question of seeing if we have to play Portugal or Mexico I think.

But anyway, I can advice everybody to watch Holland Argentina, on wednesday 9 pm local time (that is GMT + 1) both teams will probably give some players a rest...but I think it will be a good match anyway. I actually hope we lose with big numbers so that the players will feel extremely motivated for the next game.

[Fragbait]

[replying to Nystul] Hi,

But instant replay so often reveals a different story...

And that's exactly what referrees don't have access too. That's what makes it hard for them to judge - but I think most of them are doing a good job.

And apparently now, it's not just enough to fall on the ground and pretend you got kicked in the shin and are in agonizing pain (when in fact you stumbled over the other player's foot). Your shin injury is apparently so severe that a stretcher is actually needed to drag your corpse off the field. But it must be some kind of magical stretcher, because by the time it gets to the sideline you are ready to jump back in the game and run windsprints.

That's a development that is partly due to medics attending to the player from the place of the foul to the side of the field. Also, Ice-Spray works wonders. And if you pay attention how many of those players that were treated at the side and come back afterwards have to be replaced some 10 minutes later, you begin to realize that the treatment didn't really restore them, but rather helped them to hang on for some minutes. Of course, many players don't want to miss one minute of such a large competition. After all, many are hoping for new contracts after the WM and want to present themselves as well as possible.

Nevertheless, there will always be the players that make a dive and try to get a free kick or penalty kick / try to waste some time for their team, especially if they are leading. Referees actually are to penalise such behaviour (the dive) with the yellow card. I agree that this card is pulled out not often enough for such foul behaviour, though - but sometimes it's just hard to tell!

Generally I think that this development is trying to get away from the behaviour of the 70ies, when yellow and red cards where seldomly awarded to players and the game could get really rough. I do think that this is a good idea, after all we want to see our stars conjuring, quick counterattacks, and fluid combinations. Boxing and kicking butts belong to martial arts, not football (how soccer should be properly called imho). I see that some of you regard soccer as a sissy sport, but then again - it's about the playing, not about raw physical presence. That's the only way how short lanky techinicians can play their ingenious deathly pass instead of getting crippled. In the 70ies, if your team ran into a counterattack, you as a defender just fouled the attacker, giving your team the chance to come back and risking only a free kick, while endangering the attacker's health.

Greetings, Fragbait

[Nystul]

That's a development that is partly due to medics attending to the player from the place of the foul to the side of the field. Also, Ice-Spray works wonders.

It's just a very unusual thing from this perspective. The guy could probably hobble off the field faster than the medical staff can get to him, lift him onto the cart, and click the strap. If I see a stretcher brought onto the field during an American football game, the first thought in my mind is whether the guy will be paralyzed for life, and the second thought is whether he will ever be able to play the game again. Usually, it is only a case where the guy got knocked unconscious and they are just being cautious, but you will almost never see a player come back into the game at any point after being carried off.

As far as the instant replay goes, I don't really see any way you could include it in a sport where the action is so continuous. You can't stop the play to determine whether or not a foul just happened. You have to rely on the officials on the field to see what really happens, and of course that is very hard to do. It would be possible (although surely controversial), during the review of the officiating of each game, to apply or revoke warnings and suspensions for the following game based on differences between what the officials saw and what actually happened. It seems in some cases you are holding the official accountable for blowing the call, and the player gets off free.

[eppie]

It's just a very unusual thing from this perspective. The guy could probably hobble off the field faster than the medical staff can get to him, lift him onto the cart, and click the strap. If I see a stretcher brought onto the field during an American football game, the first thought in my mind is whether the guy will be paralyzed for life, and the second thought is whether he will ever be able to play the game again. Usually, it is only a case where the guy got knocked unconscious and they are just being cautious, but you will almost never see a player come back into the game at any point after being carried off.

Well this use of a cart or stretcher has something to do with the faking of injuries. Once they put you on that stretcher they don't let you in teh field again directly. They continue playing and at a certain point you can enter again. Before, you saw people ready to play again at the moment they were brought (carried) out of the field. Or worse people that saw that at a certain point they were being carried away (which was of course not their intention (their intention was trying to get the opponent punished with a yellow card, or trying to win some valuable seconds when ahead) after which they would jump of the stretcher (because playing with one person less is not handy).

As far as the instant replay goes, I don't really see any way you could include it in a sport where the action is so continuous. You can't stop the play to determine whether or not a foul just happened. You have to rely on the officials on the field to see what really happens, and of course that is very hard to do. It would be possible (although surely controversial), during the review of the officiating of each game, to apply or revoke warnings and suspensions for the following game based on differences between what the officials saw and what actually happened. It seems in some cases you are holding the official accountable for blowing the call, and the player gets off free.

This happens actually, at least in club football. Television are used to punish somebody for something the ref didnot see during the match...or the other way around. Still if you have a player sent off (and it turns out he didn't make a foul), and lose the match, you can only have the player not being suspended....they result of the game will not be changed.

[kandrathe]

This happens actually, at least in club football. Television are used to punish somebody for something the ref didnot see during the match...or the other way around. Still if you have a player sent off (and it turns out he didn't make a foul), and lose the match, you can only have the player not being suspended....they result of the game will not be changed.

And the Oscar for the best football dive goes to...

Video

[Fragbait]

And the Oscar for the best football dive goes to...

Video

Nice.

And interesting that two of the 'dives' in this video actually were real fouls. Now, if this is to be a collection of true dives, then go figure how hard it is to tell in reality.

Greetings, Fragbait

[kandrathe]

Nice.

And interesting that two of the 'dives' in this video actually were real fouls. Now, if this is to be a collection of true dives, then go figure how hard it is to tell in reality.

Greetings, Fragbait

Fouls, yes. Career ending crash... not even close. Trips will happen, but the opponent doesn't need to roll around on the ground in feigned agony to try to influence the refs. I really like the guy who got taken out by the butt cheek to the face.

[Occhidiangela]

Well this use of a cart or stretcher has something to do with the faking of injuries. Once they put you on that stretcher they don't let you in teh field again directly.

One reason soccer has little traction in American sports fandom is the well advertised, by soccer players at the professional levels, sissy factor. This is the fraudulent over acting by players who fall down near anyone on the opposing team. I want to see acting, I will go to a film or a play. On the pitch, I want to see a soccer/football match.

The over emoting, the drama, and the out and out whinging displays put on should be an embarassment to any soccer player, particularly when a few minutes later the same player is often back in play at full speed, doing what he should be doing: trying to beat the other team.

I played a lot of soccer. A couple of my team mates had legs broken as the result of rough slides. That is a reason to writhe about on the ground, I assure you. I've been slide tackled any number of times, but I never moaned and grabbed an injury that wasn't there. I got up, dusted off my shorts, and got on with it, or I limped off the field, in a few cases, where the shot to the shins (pre shin guards) made it painful to walk/run.

All this over acting cry baby nonsense sends a hurtful negative message to potential American fans about what soccer is about, and who soccer players are, and what kind of people they are. Given how hard you have to work to be a top flight soccer player, I'd think the players would have an interest in not being so blatant in their falsehood. The integrity of the game, and all that rot.

This image problem stinks to high heaven, and it is FIFA's own fault for condoning it. Rather than whinge at Americans for not being "sophisticated enough" to appreciate soccer, how about cleaning up the fraud? American baseball is having a similar problem, with the decades of turning a blind eye to steroids, and is having to clean up its act, slowly but surely.

I love soccer, a game I grew up playing.

While its popularity is growing in the US, its image is rightfully dimmed by its less attractive elements, just as Professional Hockey's idiotic penchant for endorsing lousy fisticuffs on skates is a deterrent to attracting fans. The core game itself, in either soccer or hockey, is a wonderful test of skill, coordination, strength, endurance, and speed. Trimming the fraudulent fat makes for a better sport, and for a better product at the professional levels.

Occhi

[eppie]

One reason soccer has little traction in American sports fandom is the well advertised, by soccer players at the professional levels, sissy factor. This is the fraudulent over acting by players who fall down near anyone on the opposing team. I want to see acting, I will go to a film or a play. On the pitch, I want to see a soccer/football match.

The over emoting, the drama, and the out and out whinging displays put on should be an embarassment to any soccer player, particularly when a few minutes later the same player is often back in play at full speed, doing what he should be doing: trying to beat the other team.

I played a lot of soccer. A couple of my team mates had legs broken as the result of rough slides. That is a reason to writhe about on the ground, I assure you. I've been slide tackled any number of times, but I never moaned and grabbed an injury that wasn't there. I got up, dusted off my shorts, and got on with it, or I limped off the field, in a few cases, where the shot to the shins (pre shin guards) made it painful to walk/run.

All this over acting cry baby nonsense sends a hurtful negative message to potential American fans about what soccer is about, and who soccer players are, and what kind of people they are. Given how hard you have to work to be a top flight soccer player, I'd think the players would have an interest in not being so blatant in their falsehood. The integrity of the game, and all that rot.

Like I said, it is a question of trying to get a freekick or a yellow card for the opponent...if it works you succeeded, if it doesn't work, usually it has no consequence. Because in soccer people still refuse to use electronic equipment to better monitor the game (or to use e.g. four referees) it is very difficult to see what really happens.
And money is really important here. The US system of prof.sports seems better to me...more fair. In most countries in europe 3 or 4 teams (sometimes less) decide every year who wins, and those teams have a lot more money to spend than teh others (making it almost impossible to win). This is one of the things I really dislike about it. But being such a commercial succes for the biggest and most powerful (of the field) teams this will not change. Also international there is this problem. If Juventus e.g. plays just the first round of teh champions league...they will receive more money then Ajax (from the small Holland) when they win the final.....just because Italy pays more and is commercially much more interesting.

Also it is very important to play this competitions because there is so much money to gain. I mean if Ajax wins the champions league they would be able to spend 60 milion next year instead of 40 million..that is quite a difference. I believe in the states it financially does not really matter if you win or lose (apart from having the revenues from paying visitors)

This image problem stinks to high heaven, and it is FIFA's own fault for condoning it. Rather than whinge at Americans for not being "sophisticated enough" to appreciate soccer, how about cleaning up the fraud? American baseball is having a similar problem, with the decades of turning a blind eye to steroids, and is having to clean up its act, slowly but surely.

I don't think we think americans are not sophisticated enough. I think americans visit sports matches for other reasons. Going with the family, enjoying a day out. And all those time outs are great, because that gives you time to get something to eat or drink. Soccer is too quick and will not give you this oppurtunity.

I love soccer, a game I grew up playing.

While its popularity is growing in the US, its image is rightfully dimmed by its less attractive elements, just as Professional Hockey's idiotic penchant for endorsing lousy fisticuffs on skates is a deterrent to attracting fans. The core game itself, in either soccer or hockey, is a wonderful test of skill, coordination, strength, endurance, and speed. Trimming the fraudulent fat makes for a better sport, and for a better product at the professional levels.

Occhi

[kandrathe]

Trimming the fraudulent fat makes for a better sport, and for a better product at the professional levels.

Occhi

Hear, hear. We should really endeavor to keep sports acting where it belongs.



In professional wrestling.

[Occhidiangela]

Like I said, it is a question of trying to get a freekick or a yellow card for the opponent...if it works you succeeded, if it doesn't work, usually it has no consequence. Because in soccer people still refuse to use electronic equipment to better monitor the game (or to use e.g. four referees) it is very difficult to see what really happens.

eppie, I don't think you understood my point. The players and the rules officials have in their control the integrity of the game. Their joint complicity in promoting falsehood and fraud damages to truth of what is happening on the field. Your excusing the "lawyer find a loophole" theme as excusable fraud" is part of the problem. Put differently, if you condone slavery, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I love soccer.

I have nothing but comtempt for liars who try to cheat to win. Falsely trying to portray a slide tackle as injurious is cheating, since it uses falsehood to wrongly influence a referee to award a card designed to punicsh truly rough play. Leave the legal loophole crap in the courtrooms, keep it off the "football pitch."

Occhi

[Flymo]

One reason soccer has little traction in American sports fandom is the well advertised, by soccer players at the professional levels, sissy factor. This is the fraudulent over acting by players who fall down near anyone on the opposing team. I want to see acting, I will go to a film or a play. On the pitch, I want to see a soccer/football match.

I don't think we think americans are not sophisticated enough. I think americans visit sports matches for other reasons. Going with the family, enjoying a day out. And all those time outs are great, because that gives you time to get something to eat or drink. Soccer is too quick and will not give you this oppurtunity.

Neither of these assertions explains why soccer is not popular in the US but is the most popular sport in (literally) hundreds of other countries.

The countries whose players are notorious for shamming injury are the mediterranean and Latin ones. These would be said by many to have a more macho culture than the US, and yet football is not seen as "sissy" there. I suspect you used that word because it is often played by girls in the US. Perhaps the question you should be asking is why men play American Football in the US but practically nowhere else.

Most people do eat and drink at football matches, many take their sons or wife, and some the whole family. It is true that football matches at 2 hours are shorter than some other kinds of fixture, but if Americans go purely for long leisurely events I would have expected cricket to be big in the US :)

[Fragbait]

Falsely trying to portray a slide tackle as injurious is cheating

Oh, come on.

I don't think that you've never been fouled, hit the ground and that you never screamed because of the sudden rush the pain causes.

Not everbody who screams and holds his leg after a foul is a liar and cheater, even if he continues to play later on. I don't think that martial attitude is worth a tinker's cuss.
Clishee of an American watching a soccer game:
"Get the fu** up you little liar!"
*pause*
"Oops, he suffered a rupture of a muscle fiber... Well, it did look like a bloody dive, didn't it? Wuss!"

In reality, it's either:

You get fouled.
You fall.
You hold the body part that hurts, and scream.
Sometimes it hurts bad enough to have a doctor have a look at it.
Often he makes it hurt less, and you grit your teeth and continue to play.
Sometimes the doctor tells you that this game is over for you.
Sometimes he tells you that you will probably be unable to play for months.

Or:
You don't get fouled.
You fall.
You pretend to be hurt and scream in acted agony.
The referee may see through your manouver or not.
If he sees through it, you receive the yellow card. One more yellow card, and you're out.
If he doesn't see through it, you get a free kick / penalty kick, and the enemy player possibly gets penalised.

I still think that case 1 is fare more frequent.

Greetings, Fragbait