A cause for celebration.

[Doc]

Hoo-ray!

My only regret is that I can not get a front row seat and some popcorn.

[SwissMercenary]

Hoo-ray!

My only regret is that I can not get a front row seat and some popcorn.

Doc, have you considered starting a blog?

Nothing more need be said.

[Doc]

Some of the best conversations we have had here at the Lounge starts off in threads like this one...

So bah humbug to you.

[SwissMercenary]

Some of the best conversations we have had here at the Lounge starts off in threads like this one...

So bah humbug to you.

And quite a few of those conversations were on the subject of people getting ticked off by "<Link>. Discuss." posts.

[kandrathe]

And quite a few of those conversations were on the subject of people getting ticked off by "<Link>. Discuss." posts.

:P

I just happened to be watching the end of The Great Northfield Minnesota Raid on cable last night, which is 51 miles from where I live. I was pretty amused by a couple of scenes which were ficticious, but an interesting commentary on the times. In one scene the posse of farmers and town folk set out after the James-Younger gang, and they first came upon some land speculators in a whore house, so they summarily hanged them and rode on. Then the scene changes to a violent shoot out, and finally out gunned and having wounded two, there is a surrender. But it turns out the other side was a different posse that set out from a different town. Then the leader of the Northfield posse says proudly as if they just won a football scrimmage, "Those guys aren't that tough now are they?" Then, finally catching up with Cole, Jim and Bob Younger and Charlie Pitts the posse had a shoot out killing Charlie Pitts and seriously wounding the others.

The point is that this was pretty typical justice in 1876.

Or, in Texas you'd have characters like;

"It is the judgment of this court that you are hereby tried and convicted of illegally and unlawfully committing certain grave offenses against the peace and dignity of the State of Texas, particularly in my bailiwick, I fine you two dollars; then get the he// out of here and never show yourself in this court again. That's my rulin'." -- Judge Roy Bean

I don't have a problem with dealing harshly with terrorists, rapists, killers, torturers, or child molesters. But let's be consistent, from Abu Garib, to South Carolina, to Guantanamo, to California. If we want to demonstrate grim determination and civility then we need to be also guided by the rule of law and due process. It might be that it is happening, but it would be nice if we were confident is was happening everywhere equally.

[DeeBye]

Under the existing law, if convicted Hinson faces a sentence of life without the possibility of parole.

I don't quite understand the need to change this sentence. Under existing law he goes into a deep dark hole and never comes out, and I've heard stories about how fellow inmates would treat a convicted child rapist.

I'm not really a death penalty advocate, but in this case I'd argue that putting him to death would be too merciful.

And quite a few of those conversations were on the subject of people getting ticked off by "<Link>. Discuss." posts.

I sort of agree. It's not that I don't find the topics interesting and worthy of discussion, but I personally think that some form of effort should be put into the topic by the thread starter. I already know that I probably post too many topics, but I always try to add as much content as I can.

[Doc]

:P

I just happened to be watching the end of The Great Northfield Minnesota Raid on cable last night, which is 51 miles from where I live. I was pretty amused by a couple of scenes which were ficticious, but an interesting commentary on the times. In one scene the posse of farmers and town folk set out after the James-Younger gang, and they first came upon some land speculators in a whore house, so they summarily hanged them and rode on. Then the scene changes to a violent shoot out, and finally out gunned and having wounded two, there is a surrender. But it turns out the other side was a different posse that set out from a different town. Then the leader of the Northfield posse says proudly as if they just won a football scrimmage, "Those guys aren't that tough now are they?" Then, finally catching up with Cole, Jim and Bob Younger and Charlie Pitts the posse had a shoot out killing Charlie Pitts and seriously wounding the others.

The point is that this was pretty typical justice in 1876.

Or, in Texas you'd have characters like;

"It is the judgment of this court that you are hereby tried and convicted of illegally and unlawfully committing certain grave offenses against the peace and dignity of the State of Texas, particularly in my bailiwick, I fine you two dollars; then get the he// out of here and never show yourself in this court again. That's my rulin'." -- Judge Roy Bean

I don't have a problem with dealing harshly with terrorists, rapists, killers, torturers, or child molesters. But let's be consistent, from Abu Garib, to South Carolina, to Guantanamo, to California. If we want to demonstrate grim determination and civility then we need to be also guided by the rule of law and due process. It might be that it is happening, but it would be nice if we were confident is was happening everywhere equally.

Agreed, and well put.

And I am not trying to rehash the death penalty debate here, I am after a different horse with fresher flesh.

Not to long ago there was a feller here that dug out a dungeon under his trailer and tortured and raped some kids. This kind of thing happens all to often.

Now, leaving the death penalty out of this, what the hell do you do with these sorts of people? They can't be rehabilitated. All to often they are released early or even put under house arrest because people have this tendency to kill kiddie rapists in prison. In our current catch and release fishing for failure system, these guys just get out and do it again.

So, if we keep them alive, why? I am actually morbidly curious to see how the bleeding heart sorts view the other side of the issue and what these folks guys like this can contribute to society... What useful purpose they serve. We've argued the death penalty bit to death, so, how about some witty banter on why we should keep these people alive. Let's discuss life, shall we? Why should I, or anybody else for that matter, pay dimes out of our own pockets to keep these guys alive and in comfort for the rest of their lives? Why should we as tax payers, have to pay for a deputy sheriff or three to watch them at home and keep them safe from a pissed off neighborhood? Yeah, that happened here. The city actually was required to send out a sheriff to do protective duty for a convicted kiddie rapist, and keep him safe from the neighborhood that wanted to go after him with torches and pitchforks... Why are these guys protected? And why should we pay for this protection? Other places too where sex offender lists are letting the outraged public know where one lives, and people start threatening and then these kiddie rapists actually get protection for their miserable little lives. It is a pity that sort of man power wasn't around to actually protect kids from the kiddie rapists in the first place. But kiddie rapists get the victim status and all kinds of money is spent housing them, protecting them, and sheltering them from an outraged public. I'd like to know how anybody can consider that fair somehow, I'd like someone to explain to me how these sorts of scum deserve this sort of special treatment.

The penalty of death is imposed on the kiddie rapists... The penalty of life, whatever life that is, inside or out, is imposed on us, society. Why should we have to pay for their crimes?

I don't quite understand the need to change this sentence. Under existing law he goes into a deep dark hole and never comes out, and I've heard stories about how fellow inmates would treat a convicted child rapist.

I'm not really a death penalty advocate, but in this case I'd argue that putting him to death would be too merciful.
I sort of agree. It's not that I don't find the topics interesting and worthy of discussion, but I personally think that some form of effort should be put into the topic by the thread starter. I already know that I probably post too many topics, but I always try to add as much content as I can.

DeeBye, all to often that life with out parole thing sours because of prison overcrowding... There are several sex offenders right now in the upstate area where I live that were given life with out possibility of parole... One of which was let out to ease prison overcrowding after only five, that's right, count them, five years. See, that whole life with out parole thing is just plain horse#$%&. It doesn't mean much. It's to much trouble to keep guys like this is prison under constant protection from general population... To much tension, to much strain, increased chances for rioting, fights, etc. So to open up a cot or two, and ease off some of the pressure cooker effect, they let these guys right back out again.

One fella on the news a few months back was given a life with out parole in the 80s. He was out in the early 90s. Got in trouble a second time... You guessed it, life with out parole again. He just got out in April because he agreed to go to therapy and wear a monitor. Something tells me we'll be hearing from him again soon.

[kandrathe]

Well, you've picked the most emotionally charged of crimes to try to have a civil discussion around.

There have been some cases where due to fear and coaching by over zealous investigators, some day care providers have been wrongly accused. In these cases it would be hard to undo the death penalty.

Contrary to your blanket statement of people who commit certain crimes of being unredeemable, some sex offenders and even child molesters are rehabilitated. It is hard to know which are and which are not. Most of them were abused themselves. Certainly killing them all stops the cycle of abuse, which is cruel but effective.

Finally there is the heinous nature of the offense. Sweetly and humanely plugging your wife in the head while she sleeps, or tossing your children out of the window, or driving them into the lake can hardly compare to a prolonged torture, and rape in a home fashioned dungeon. I think it would be very hard to try to be an objective judge in deciding fair punishments when comparing the worst of crimes.

Also understand that we only tend to hear about the worst or the worst, so fashioning punishments or laws based on extreme anecdotes seems also frivolous. In the US of about 300 million people, there are about 42,000 (0.014%) people killed in car accidents, 20,000 (0.0066%) killed by the common flu, and about 15,000 (0.005%) murders. Most (99%) of those murders are the boring so-and-so was killed by rival gang members over drug turf, or so-and-so got wasted and shot/beat/stabbed his ____ to death, or so-and-so got drunk and drove his car into ____ type of murders.

The bottom line is that you get all worked up about the 150 to 300 really heinous crimes that get alot of news coverage each year, and you let that .00005% of human garbage taint your view of all humanity. I'd say you should get a new hobby, and learn to love the 99.99995% of humanity that is not human garbage, or at least is more redeemable.

[DeeBye]

DeeBye, all to often that life with out parole thing sours because of prison overcrowding <snip anecdotes>

This isn't a problem with the sentencing then, is it? It's a problem with enforcing these sentences. The problem isn't the current laws and sentences. It's the state of the prisons. It's easy and pleasing to the public to pass all kinds of laws putting the bad guys in jail for longer terms, but please tell me someone actually thinks about how these prisons are going to cope with this. Extending the death penalty to crimes other than murder seems like the easy (cheaper) way out, and is morally repugnant to me.

[kandrathe]

This isn't a problem with the sentencing then, is it? It's a problem with enforcing these sentences. The problem isn't the current laws and sentences. It's the state of the prisons. It's easy and pleasing to the public to pass all kinds of laws putting the bad guys in jail for longer terms, but please tell me someone actually thinks about how these prisons are going to cope with this. Extending the death penalty to crimes other than murder seems like the easy (cheaper) way out, and is morally repugnant to me.

The complication in the US, as I've pointed out before are the politically motivated "get tough on drugs" laws that are populist and used by politicians to dupe voters into thinking they're doing something in DC. The result is that after 20 years, we've dedicated 30-40% of our prison space for drug related crimes in extreme "mandatory minimum" sentences. Consequently, repeat drug offenders can do more time than rapists, murderers, or child molesters. That is one area of brokeness in our system that needs to be addressed.

[Doc]

The complication in the US, as I've pointed out before are the politically motivated "get tough on drugs" laws that are populist and used by politicians to dupe voters into thinking they're doing something in DC. The result is that after 20 years, we've dedicated 30-40% of our prison space for drug related crimes in extreme "mandatory minimum" sentences. Consequently, repeat drug offenders can do more time than rapists, murderers, or child molesters. That is one area of brokeness in our system that needs to be addressed.

Yeah... They keep the friggin pot smokers in the deepest darkest hole they can for as long as bloody possible but they let kiddie rapists back out ASAP. What the fiddly diddly sticks is up with that anyhow?

Damnit, where is Bill Hicks when we need him? Him and his squeegie your third eye sound effect. Pot is not a problem, not when you compare it to alcohol and tobacco related issues. Some drugs are a problem, but please, pot and mushrooms are not a friggin problem. Hell, I just had some caps just last, er, whoops, hey, are we allowed to talk about this on the Lounge? Cows are the worst sort of drug dealers you know. They leave little stashes of highly dangerous drugs everywhere in plain sight! The war on drugs should involve shooting all cows... They are the distributors of this good #$%&.

[DeeBye]

The complication in the US, as I've pointed out before are the politically motivated "get tough on drugs" laws that are populist and used by politicians to dupe voters into thinking they're doing something in DC. The result is that after 20 years, we've dedicated 30-40% of our prison space for drug related crimes in extreme "mandatory minimum" sentences. Consequently, repeat drug offenders can do more time than rapists, murderers, or child molesters. That is one area of brokeness in our system that needs to be addressed.

After reading your post I realise that I am absolutely over my head in this discussion. I just don't understand it. From now on I'll just lurk the topic to conclusion :huh:

[Doc]

After reading your post I realise that I am absolutely over my head in this discussion. I just don't understand it. From now on I'll just lurk the topic to conclusion :huh:

No, don't do that. Your view on the issue is just as good as anybody elses... Last I checked, Canada dealt with these issues a damn sight better than we Yanks do.

[DeeBye]

No, don't do that. Your view on the issue is just as good as anybody elses... Last I checked, Canada dealt with these issues a damn sight better than we Yanks do.

Our extra taxes pay for better prisons I guess. Plus, our violent crime rate is a lot lower than the US. We just don't have to deal with as many psychopaths as you do. That's why I am out of my league discussing this.

The one thing that Canada has that the US doesn't (last I checked anyways), is a "dangerous offender" status for the really bad guys (or girls). They don't get out of prison, ever. It's our answer to the death penalty.

[Doc]

Our extra taxes pay for better prisons I guess. Plus, our violent crime rate is a lot lower than the US. We just don't have to deal with as many psychopaths as you do. That's why I am out of my league discussing this.

The one thing that Canada has that the US doesn't (last I checked anyways), is a "dangerous offender" status for the really bad guys (or girls). They don't get out of prison, ever. It's our answer to the death penalty.

Hey, that dangerous offender bit is pretty cool, allowing for people to stay in prison even if their offense doesn't seem to actually warrant a lifetime behind bars, like certain violent types or sexual offenders. While I don't agree completely with people spending a life time on the government's dime, making sure certain people stay in for good is a good thing.

I honestly was not aware that such a thing existed. I'd hate for it to happen here though, because it would be abused terribly.

[eppie]

Hoo-ray!

My only regret is that I can not get a front row seat and some popcorn.

There we go again.

Doc the question is not what this person deserves, the question if wat a civilized society should do to remain civilized.
For the 'you pay for your crimes' thing you are write, such a person deserves death penalty.
On the other hand, it is obviously clear that tough punishment is not going to stop this kind of behaviour....so as I probably said in one of your other 17 threads about the subject, we should think about what is our main goal of punishing.
We all agree that it is too dangerous to let these people out after say 15 years because it seems that they are 'cured'....most of them directly become catholic priests than :D But this is not a question of other punishments this is a question of controlling these peole once (if) they get set free. (yes this requires more social workers....who should be paid...so more taxes).

The last thing about death sentencing in general. The child molester case is quite simple. But don't forget there are countries where they sentence you to death if you are found with drugs in your suitcase, of if you steal, if you are gay (Texas? :)), if you are a communist or even if your husband commits adultery.........so who is gonna draw the lines here. The US lately is not known for its healthy opinion on human rights and in an unstable world like we live in now, it might not be a bad idea to stay on the right side of the line here.

(any replies about how child molesters deserve death you can spare yourself the typing because I (theoretically) agree)

[kandrathe]

I honestly was not aware that such a thing existed. I'd hate for it to happen here though, because it would be abused terribly.

It happens here. My state has a "sexual psychopath" law where people are committed to an institution for the criminally insane for life. Still some slip through occasionally, which prompts renewed public outrage at the "system".

[Monkey]

Why should I, or anybody else for that matter, pay dimes out of our own pockets to keep these guys alive and in comfort for the rest of their lives? Why should we as tax payers, have to pay for a deputy sheriff or three to watch them at home and keep them safe from a pissed off neighborhood?

The job of the police is not to make laws or evaluate laws but to enforce those laws and the decisions of the courts. Why does our legal system protect lives so much, even for people headed to the death penalty? Because to do otherwise weakens the Rule of Law which is the foundation of our government and economy. Investors are more confident about putting money into ventures in countries where the law can't be overridden by a few bribes or by a mob waving torches. Yes, those things still happen in the U.S., but it is better for all of us if they happen less often.

As a broader comment, I'd like to point out that our criminal law system has two kinds of problems:
1. Structural Problems--Punishments not fitting the crime, problems of law.
2. Enforcement Problems--Prison overcrowding, Plea Bargains, Selective Enforcement etc.

The fact that someone might be released on parole after being sentenced to "Life without Parole" isn't a problem with that sentence, it's a problem with the enforcement of that sentence. We need to fix our enforcement problems, not our sentencing guidelines, to prevent early parole from happening.

[Occhidiangela]

Hoo-ray!

My only regret is that I can not get a front row seat and some popcorn.

What this fellow did was something a bit more involved, and more evil, than mere "sex with a minor."

Deprivation of freedom
Kidnapping
Molestation
And so on.

Referring to that as simply "a sex crime" is a gross abuse of the English Language.

As to what SC should do with this prized son of the Persimmon State, what ever their collective consciences will put up with. The trial of those coyotes who left 70 people for dead near Victoria (19 died of suffocation) has my attention at the moment.
One coyote down
One to go.

Occhi

[Doc]

What this fellow did was something a bit more involved, and more evil, than mere "sex with a minor."

Deprivation of freedom
Kidnapping
Molestation
And so on.

Referring to that as simply "a sex crime" is a gross abuse of the English Language.

As to what SC should do with this prized son of the Persimmon State, what ever their collective consciences will put up with. The trial of those coyotes who left 70 people for dead near Victoria (19 died of suffocation) has my attention at the moment.
One coyote down
One to go.

Occhi

Yeah, there's a few more sick dogs that need to be put down.

As for the sex crimes, a sex crime is a sex crime is a sex crime. Raping a little kid is evil. Dungeons and what not might make it seem more so, or playing dress up, or whatever it is those sick bastards do, but I don't care if it's a case of snatch and go rape or dragging a kid in to a dungeon, it's all evil to me, all a sign of a diseased mind that will never know a cure.

It's easier for everybody to just put them down and wash your hands of it.

Somebody right now is cooking up a new bill that will force SC to place kiddie rapists in general population in prison with no special protection... Pervert activists are saying this can't be allowed to happen, it will put these poor innocent victims of society in danger and perhaps cause them to be killed by men with nothing to lose... GEE, YA THINK?! I think it's a good idea. Men in prison get to perform a valuable service, the state saves a few dimes having to house or execute them, and in general everybody has a happy ending, except for the real victim who will probably never be the same.

Frankly, at the risk of being flamed, I believe that the pervert activists should also be tarred and feathered, or otherwise beaten within an inch of their life. These people, these sick perverted kiddie rapists, deserve no advocate, no protection, no special treatment, nobody saving them from the just desserts they so richly deserve to eat. The activists protecting these child molesters need to be rounded up, and have something Very Bad™ happen to them. Protecting the criminal and granting them special rights is an outrage... Or even worse, somehow elevating them to "victim" status.

I am sorry to keep rehashing this issue... Words can not express how much I love kids. All kids. Even the really rotten snotty nose little brat kids. It eats me up inside to know this crap keeps happening and that there is not enough being done about it. I feel extremely passionate about this issue... Steps like these, the death penalty, are a big deal for me, because they are some kind of progress. A step in some direction, even if it might not be the right one, at least some kind of action is happening. It is terribly frusterating to sit back and watch these cases on the news or read about them and know just how little is being done about them. It gnaws at my insides.