Reputation

[Jarulf]

As I am reaching level 60, I have recently come in contact with reputation a few times. At first, it was mostly a way to get a deiscount from your own faction and after a while, those Booty Bay and company turned green from yellow. I never really have bothered with geting rides from another race so I never bothered figuring out how hard it would be. However, recently I have bumped into the reputation issue a few times.

First, I wanted to get friendlier with those Timbermaw people to turn in some items that started a quest. No problem I though. I had initiallo, at much lower level reached Winterspring by simply running through the tunnels only dieing two times or something, so I though I should get going with turning them unhostile. Wasn't so bad, especially since I did a few quests at the same time. They turned "orange" soon enough and I was told for them to speak to me (and presumably me to turn in the quests) they had to be yellow (sorry don't recall the axact name, I think it is called Neutral). Sigh I though, I need to go kill a few more.

To my shock, when calcualting it more preciely, I needed to kill many hundrads of those monsters since I only get 5 rep point each (a boss gives 15 I think) and I need to gather a whopping 3000 more reputation points. That is 600 monsters, talk about insane grind and stupidy I though. Well, there is those turn in quests someone said, sure enough, I can turn in 5 feathers for 50 reputation but considering I get a feather every 4 kill or so, I would say that cut the number of monsters down to, say 400.

OK, Blizzard like for people to get mad, frustrated and spend hours to get a better reputation, I'll do it in chunks, a bit every now and then, after all, that is two quests (and hopefully nice fun and entertaining quest lines) for me waiting. After a sneak peak at Allakhazam about the qusts, it turns out they are no quest lines at all and basically just turn in for a few more reputation points! Gee, so I should grind for hours, just to get a few more points!!! So what is the point?

Appearantly one can, with increasing reputation get some unqiue recipies. Are they good? A lot of them? Fantastic? I mean, for all the hard work ammounting to what is TONS of quests normally, one would expect something ordinary? Nope, one or two recipies depenidng on your profession it seems, none of which are that impressive. AND, you won't get them at neutral reputation, you need to go higher and now we are not talking hundrads of monsters, we are talking in the thousands if not more. Gee.

So I try to learn a bit more about reputation, only to find out that you can't reach the higher levels at all just killing monsters, at a certain level you stop getting reputation for monsters and presumably need to resort to the turn in quests only, so the number of monsters needed to kill multiplies even more!!! What is worse, there is really no way to tell PLUS, if you really wan't to do it properly, you need to do it in a cheesy way, you obviously should not make ANY turn ins at all until later when you get no more reputation from the killing. Who at Blizzard had a horrible day at home and figured out a system that punishes people that try to do quests and turn ins as they play only to find out they were cheated out of reputation and hard work? And this all on a system to tstart with that is just an silly time sink to give no real benefits?

Sincerly, who can clim it is even remotedly fiting with the rest of the game and system and that the rewards are in comparison to other game play? So what is the purpose? To give those few fanatics that will go through the time some reward that could be labeled "I wasted a few weeks of my life killing monsters to get a recipie from the Timbermaw Clan that I will probably never use anyway"? Or have I missed the goodies and super rewards? Sure, one can claim that if if was easier, everyone would get there, but then, that is not how the rest of the game works. Of ocurse, they could multiply the reputation needed by a million and sure enough some people would spend the time getting there no matter how long it takes, but still, there must be something missing I have not seen.

I have now also come across a new such "case", the Argent Dawn. Seems they have more quests and slightly easier to get reputation, but I am now doing the Cauldron quests in the Plagulands, and supposedly, the same apply here, I need to do the Cauldron quests till I puke to get a bit better reputation (and I not only need the item they drop, I need to supply runecloth as well, and quite a lot in the end) and presumably again, I get some extra recipies (not checked, I am a tailor and enchanter by the way, had I had gathering skills, I would kill someone at Blizzrd when I figured out recpies is the reward appearantly). Perhaps there are some nice normal item to buy as well, I have not checked.

The last example I have found recently is that for the herb bag recpies, you seem to be needing to do something similar in Silithus for the Cenarion Circle. Adding it all up, seems one can spend a whole year grinding to good reputation for a few recipies and if you want so, a mount from another race. Agian, what am I missing?

Supposedly geting a bit reputation for a water elemental in Azshara should actually give you a few nice quests to do, but I need to check that up for sure first.

Now, can anyone with more insight tell me that what I wrote above is rubish and all lies and that it is not that bad? Should I keep my scourge stones by the way or just turn them in right now and as I get them or keep them for a year when I might no longer get rep for killing undead? Any advice?

[teske]

Well, about the design of the reputation sytem, it is a gigantic time sink. (And I think that's intentional.)

Anyway, just a quick remark: You'll get most of your argent dawn reputation from running/questing in Stratholme and Scholomance.

A good site for an overview about reputation is:
WoW Wiki

[Quark]

Basically, if you don't care about being a crafter (and you can get the items off a crafter that did care), here's what benefits you can get out of Reputation, excluding discounts:

All Alliance/Horde Factions:
(Exalted): Be able to purchase their mounts. Strictly a visual benefit.
Best done with repeatable Runecloth turnins

Argent Dawn:
(Revered): +5 Resistance to a shoulder item "enchant", resistance of your choice.
(Exalted): +5 All Resistances to a shoulder item "enchant".
Best done simply by playing in Scholomance and Stratholme. Worry about those Dungeons, their quests and their items, let the rep come as a side benefit.

Zandalar:
(Each tier): an amulet for your class (each tier upgrades it)
(Friendly): Bracers for your class, and allows you to get the "ZG Enchant" for your class
(Honored): Uh ... something for your class. I'm blanking out here.
(Revered): Cheastpiece for your class.
Gotten simply by raiding Zul'Gurub. Let it come to you as it does, you can replace the Friendly/Honored items with comparable blues, the Revered with comparable epics.

Cenarion Circle:
Pretty much the same as Zandalar, only it's Ahn'Qiraj instead of Zul'Gurub. There's also more generic rewards, of which you pick one at each level of rep. But these require massive farming/questing pretty much (for Badges, another requirement). You may also get reputation through outside quests.

Brood of Nozdormu:
Not completely sure. Some rep from AQ20, lots of rep from AQ40. Recieve Signet Rings that improve as your rep improves, from Neutral to Exalted (they start at Hated).

Hydraxian Waterlords:
(Honored): 2 Rings with Fire Resistance and good overall stats (melee and caster based)
Gotten simply through playing MC. Again, don't worry about the rep worry about the other reasons you are there.

You can get away with completely ignoring rep, once you achieve Timbermaw Unfriendly. The rest is all crafts (that others can make for you) or items that, while good, are still replaceable. If the rep game bothers you, just don't play it :)

[lfd]

Zandalar:
(Each tier): an amulet for your class (each tier upgrades it)
(Friendly): Bracers for your class, and allows you to get the "ZG Enchant" for your class
(Honored): Uh ... something for your class.  I'm blanking out here.
(Revered): Cheastpiece for your class.
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The items you get at each stage are class-dependent; priests, for example, get epic shoulders at revered (and no chestpiece at all).

[oldmandennis]

In general, yes it is a ginourmus time sink. A "standard" MMORPG usually features a few, from what I've heard. It's one of the reasons you can spend so much more time at 60 then going 1-60. Keep hitting that feeder bar.

CC is a little tougher then Zandalar, because the epic set item is at exaulted. You can a field duty epic at revered, and another at exaulted.

BoN has a 5 piece armor set starting at neutral. It requires BoP drops from the dungeon(AQ40), same as CC and ZG. I'm not sure if the idols and scarabs needed drop in AQ40, or just AQ20. If your guild is capable of doing the Broodlord, you can get rep by grinding the hive bugs in silithus. You will need to kill a pretty high amount of bugs to get the field duty items anyways.

ZG has sweet shoulder enchants at exaulted. Them and AD are the only shoulder enchants currently in game. There is no "outside" way to earn ZG rep, however much of the trash can safely be handled with groups of 5-10. They drop coins and bijous which can either be used for repeatable rep quests, or to complete the set items. Most guilds I know take all of the items dropped during guild runs to give to players completing set items. However items dropped during small group rep farming are usually split amongst the farmers, to earn a decent rep/hr.

For the dungeon based factions, you will have most of the rep you need just by doing all of the quests and running the dungeon enough to get all the drops you want. If you decide you want the rep rewards, but want to skip some of the dungeon running (by skipping your D1/D2 sets say), you may need to supplement your rep with the outside activities (pages/stones/bugs).

[Rinnhart]

The problem is that Blizzard has decided "Rep up or miss out."

They have a fantastic game up until 60. Not a grind in sight. And what do they do? Turn the whole damn thing into EQ3 once you cap.

At least there's still some incentive for grinding at max level in EQ besides factioning.

[Magicbag]

Maybe MJ or someone else with more Faction farming than I can chime in here, but my experience has been that they want to give people small incentives to up their reputaion with certain groups of people in the game. As others have said, if you're a crafter, it could be a nice money maker to be able to enchant say one of the two flavors of +agi that the timbermaw offer.

Do you need any of these rewards? Not really. It is for the most hardcore players that simply must have every recipe/reward.

Furthermore, faction grinding is not for the soloist. I'm not sure if this still works, but when I farmed Timbermaw faction, you could have a raid group doing the killing, and the entire raid would still get credit as long as you were healing teammates or damaging the mob. Imagine 5 mages, 3 priests and 2 druids as an example group. Or 8 mages and 2 priests, or 38 mages and 2 priests. Point is that most of my farming was done 10 man and we were clearing faster than respawn on the northern felwood furbolg camp.

Jarulf, I know the noble goals that you have for the game, but there are some things that either must be conceded or done with a group to preseve one's sanity.
-MB

[Kevin]

Furthermore, faction grinding is not for the soloist.  I'm not sure if this still works, but when I farmed Timbermaw faction, you could have a raid group doing the killing, and the entire raid would still get credit as long as you were healing teammates or damaging the mob.  Imagine 5 mages, 3 priests and 2 druids as an example group.  Or 8 mages and 2 priests, or 38 mages and 2 priests.  Point is that most of my farming was done 10 man and we were clearing faster than respawn on the northern felwood furbolg camp.
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They've decreased the range of how close to the mob you have to be to get rep for it so it doesn't always help to have a lot more people as while the spawn rates of mobs will go up a little you are still limited by the spawn rate of the mobs on incoming rep and a raid of 40 doesn't up the spawn rate that much. Most duo's will be able to kill plenty fast enough to be limited by the spawn rate as well. It's still mroe efficient for the guild/group, yes, because you have 5 people getting rep and night fighting for rep, but honestly if I've got 4 other people that have the time I'd rather be in an instance than farming rep with them. Not all the time. It can be fun to just get on TS and chat while repping up, but I have more fun with 5 mans than just about anything else in the game. :)

Edit: I wasn't clear with the changes to how the raid rep works you have to be pretty close to the mob that is dying to get rep. Somone killing High Chief winterfall and someone outside the walls killing a shaman I think are too far apart now to share rep. For a short time people in felwood could get rep from people killing stuff in winterspring if in the same raid because the range was so huge. So you would have raids with people in all the furbie camps destroying things and getting insanely fast rep (10 people to each camp, the 3 in WS and the 1 in felwood) meant insane kill speeds and tons of rep. Now however since the raid has to stay pretty bunched you won't get nearly the benefit.

[Bolty]

Now, can anyone with more insight tell me that what I wrote above is rubish and all lies and that it is not that bad? Should I keep my scourge stones by the way or just turn them in right now and as I get them or keep them for a year when I might no longer get rep for killing undead? Any advice?[right][snapback]106924[/snapback][/right]

Other people have already commented on all of this pretty well, but I'll chime in anyway.

At level 60, experience ends. Reputation begins. Rep = exp at level 60. This is why Blizzard eventually had the rep system interface upgrades in 1.10, where your exp bar is replaced by a rep bar of your choosing.

Just like you could score exp by doing quests, you can also score rep. A lot of your quests that you can now do at 60 will score you rep. This is the new "grind." Remember that quests were an illusion in order to make the exp grind not seem so bad. If you think of rep as your new exp, maybe it won't hurt so much.

As you noted, some factions are less important than others, repwise. Timbermaw is pretty much a crafter-only rep grind; don't bother with it unless you want those recipes. And as has been noted already, you REALLY want to hit them with a group. I thought the grind to Friendly was impossible until one morning when I started up a PuG raid group grinding Deadwoods; in 2.5 hours, I scored something like 5000 rep total just killing furbolgs. Ok, pretty monotonous, yes, but timewise, not much different from a large instance run. It's not as bad as it seems if you do it in a group.

Argent Dawn, Cenarian Circle, and Zandalar rep is much nicer. You'll score very nice enchants and items from these factions. Also, none of those are that hard to build up.

Argent Dawn: you'll get to Revered just by killing elites in the Scholomance/Stratholme instances - which you'll be doing anyway to gear up and quest. No need to do Cauldrons or hand in scourgestones until then.

Cenarian Circle: run AQ20 or do Field Duty quests if you're bored.

Zandalar: run Zul'Gurub a lot and the faction will roll in as you do quests and score loot.

Look how long it took you to get to level 60. That was the exp grind. Now you have a new grind. You can either ignore it or go for it with gusto. Timbermaw's a timesink, but give the other ones a shot.

-Bolty

[Occhidiangela]

And this all on a system to start with that is just a silly time sink to give no real benefits?
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While I find Bolty's remarks concerning "rep replaces experience" as the best answer to your question, game structure wise, the other purpose includes, due to the subscription business model, profit motive. Blizzard offers a variety of things to do, depending on player tastes and preferences, post level 60 to keep your account active, you playing, and thus the revenue rolling in.

Some folks like BG, some raids, some like item farming, some crafting, and some will find the Rep improvement appealing to further other ends, or as an added goal when getting together with friends to open a can of whooparse on monsters for a gaming session. Anything to keep folks in, on, and active.

This analysis may sound cynical, but realistically the game can't completely free itself from its business model. I think that is the nature of the beast with any MMORPG.

Occhi

[MongoJerry]

Magicbag said it well. I'll now say the same things poorly.

As I am reaching level 60, I have recently come in contact with reputation a few times. At first, it was mostly a way to get a deiscount from your own faction and after a while, those Booty Bay and company turned green from yellow. I never really have bothered with geting rides from another race so I never bothered figuring out how hard it would be. However, recently I have bumped into the reputation issue a few times.

WoW is designed to allow anyone to get to level 60 quickly. Once you hit the level cap, the game changes from being one where getting experience is the most important thing to one where getting items and abilities is the most important thing. One of the ways to get those items is to build your reputation up with various factions. It is intentional that unless you are a masochist and play 24/7 that it will be impossible to faction up with all of the factions in the world to Exalted. One is expected to choose one's factions. Some people take the approach to get a little reputation built up with every faction and others choose to concentrate on select couple of factions. The rewards vary with what factions you rep up with, and sometimes recipes get added to various factions later in the game.

To my shock, when calcualting it more preciely, I needed to kill many hundrads of those monsters since I only get 5 rep point each (a boss gives 15 I think) and I need to gather a whopping 3000 more reputation points. That is 600 monsters, talk about insane grind and stupidy I though. Well, there is those turn in quests someone said, sure enough, I can turn in 5 feathers for 50 reputation but considering I get a feather every 4 kill or so, I would say that cut the number of monsters down to, say 400...

So I try to learn a bit more about reputation, only to find out that you can't reach the higher levels at all just killing monsters, at a certain level you stop getting reputation for monsters and presumably need to resort to the turn in quests only, so the number of monsters needed to kill multiplies even more!!! What is worse, there is really no way to tell PLUS, if you really wan't to do it properly, you need to do it in a cheesy way, you obviously should not make ANY turn ins at all until later when you get no more reputation from the killing. Who at Blizzard had a horrible day at home and figured out a system that punishes people that try to do quests and turn ins as they play only to find out they were cheated out of reputation and hard work? And this all on a system to tstart with that is just an silly time sink to give no real benefits?

Right. The first rule of reputation grinding, at least in the early stages, is to do it in a group. I'm now friendly with the Timbermaw furbolgs, and when I started grinding solo, the pace was mindnumbing. But, when I got in a group with two mages and another priest, we could aoe down entire camps with barely a stop and the reputation points came fast and thick. You get 5 reputation points for killing a furbolg whether you are solo or in a group, you see, so the bigger the group the better.

And as you mentioned, if you plan to go all the way to exalted with the timbermaw, you will eventually stop getting reputation for killing furbolgs and have to depend on turning in feathers. So, along the way, it's best if you don't turn in your feathers until you reach that point. Now, I haven't ground Timbermaw faction since they added the feather turn-in quest, so I don't know if those feathers are bind on pickup or not. If they are like Twilight Texts and aren't bind on pickup, that means that you can buy feathers from your fellow players. So, what people who are fanatical about grinding reputation do is sell all the loot they get from grinding furbolgs and then use that gold to buy their feathers/texts from other players on the AH or in trade chat. This in effect increases your drop rate of your feathers, because in effect any loot you find on a corpse ends up counting toward your feather total. On the other hand, if the feathers are bind-on-pickup, then, yeah, the grind stinks.

So what is the purpose? To give those few fanatics that will go through the time some reward that could be labeled "I wasted a few weeks of my life killing monsters to get a recipie from the Timbermaw Clan that I will probably never use anyway"?

Hey, now! I resemble that remark! Yarrr!

Appearantly one can, with increasing reputation get some unqiue rcipies. Are they good? A lot of them? Fantastic? I mean, for all the hard work ammounting to what is TONS of quests normally, one would expect something ordinary? Nope, one or two recipies depenidng on your profession it seems, none of which are that impressive...

Sincerly, who can clim it is even remotedly fiting with the rest of the game and system and that the rewards are in comparison to other game play? ... Or have I missed the goodies and super rewards? Sure, one can claim that if if was easier, everyone would get there, but then, that is not how the rest of the game works. Of ocurse, they could multiply the reputation needed by a million and sure enough some people would spend the time getting there no matter how long it takes, but still, there must be something missing I have not seen.

If you kill in a group, it only takes a few evenings to get to friendly with the timbermaw, and the recipes are quite nice. As an enchanter, the +15 agility to 1H weapons and +25 agility to 2H weapons are useful enchants to have for my guild, and I occationally make a little money off them on the side. Is it worth it to go further? It depends on if you want to be able to summon a Timbermaw shaman to fight at your side. So far, it hasn't been worth the grind to me, but other people really want that trinket -- mostly for the ability to show it off to others. Some people are strange that way.

I have now also come across a new such "case", the Argent Dawn. Seems they have more quests and slightly easier to get reputation, but I am now doing the Cauldron quests in the Plagulands, and supposedly, the same apply here, I need to do the Cauldron quests till I puke to get a bit better reputation (and I not only need the item they drop, I need to supply runecloth as well, and quite a lot in the end) and presumably again, I get some extra recipies (not checked, I am a tailor and enchanter by the way, had I had gathering skills, I would kill someone at Blizzrd when I figured out recpies is the reward appearantly). Perhaps there are some nice normal item to buy as well, I have not checked.

The best way to get reputation with the Argent Dawn is to run Stratholme and Scholomane. You get reputation from killing the normal mobs there up until revered and along the way, you can collect scourgestones that you can turn in for extra reputation but are again best to turn in only after you've hit revered. After revered and turning in all your saved up scourgestones, then you can still get some reputation from killing bosses in instances, or you can repeatedly do all those cauldron quests you mentioned.

The reward for Argent Dawn reputation, besides a few minor recipes (although the alechemy recipes are excellent), is the ability to enchant your shoulders with +resistances. That used to be the only way to enchant your shoulders until ZG came along, and since the ZG enchants are so expensive anyway, those AD shoulder enchants are still quite useful.

In addition, with Naxxramas being released in the next patch, many people suspect that AD reputation will become even more important, the way that Cenarian Circle faction has become important with the release of AQ.

The last example I have found recently is that for the herb bag recpies, you seem to be needing to do something similar in Silithus for the Cenarion Circle. Adding it all up, seems one can spend a whole year grinding to good reputation for a few recipies and if you want so, a mount from another race. Agian, what am I missing?

Cenarian Circle is the easiest reputation to get, because there are so many sources of reputation. You can grind mobs for a little kill reputation, do some general quests, do some Field Duty quests (the Tactical quests are particularly fast and easy), collect and/or buy Twilight Texts to turn in, summon twilight elemental bosses (the first level of bosses are soloable) for rep and quest turn-in items, and of course run AQ20 and AQ40 for even more reputation. The rewards meanwhile are very nice. There are some terrific recipes as well as some quest reward items you can get when your reputation increases. I myself am looking forward to getting a Gavel of Infinite Wisdom when I finally hit Exalted with Cenarian Circle, and I haven't really ground obsessively to get there. Of course, I raid AQ20 as often as I can, but the reputation gain from running it isn't as fast as if you spent the time grinding for twilight texts.

Supposedly geting a bit reputation for a water elemental in Azshara should actually give you a few nice quests to do, but I need to check that up for sure first.

That series mostly involves running Molten Core. There are a few small prequel quests, but for the most part the Hydrazian Waterlords reputation and quests are mostly there to let you get the Aqual Quintessences which are used to douse the runes inside Molten Core that let you summon Major Domo and Ragnaros.

Now, can anyone with more insight tell me that what I wrote above is rubish and all lies and that it is not that bad? Should I keep my scourge stones by the way or just turn them in right now and as I get them or keep them for a year when I might no longer get rep for killing undead? Any advice?
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Definitely keep your scourgestones and cauldron quest items until you get Revered. My advice is to pick the faction you want to rep up with carefully and then group up as much as possible while grinding out the reputation. It is a MMO, after all, so being social is an integral part of the game, even if there are things available for people to do solo. If you insist on soloing, I would suggest trying to go for Cenarian Circle reputation, because it is the easiest reputation to get, the quests and activities involved are more varied, and the rewards are better than the other factions. You might have to buy some scarabs and stuff off the AH to make your items and maybe be willing to run AQ20 at least a couple of times to make your items, but on the whole, the rewards are good.

[Jarulf]

Thanks for all the comments, I think I have a better understanding now. The things that puzzles me is still the fact of "keep the turnin items until you get high rep" due to the fact that killing stop giving rep. That, no matter how one look at it seems a stupid design decision and on top of that, make people feel cheated for doing quests when they are available. Imagine doing some other quest at level 20 only to be told it was a waste since if you had waited with it until level 60, you could have done it to get to level 61!!! Now instead you have to do another quest 10 times for same result.

It also seems that, even though grouping seems nice (but only as long as you get rep for killing I pressume, then it is a waste) the way is to run instances, right? Does that include raid instances? Seems that to really play the game after level 60, you are forced to go raid style almost which seems a bit sad. Alternatively in part run normal instances, there is no other game outside instances almost.

Looking at Blizard's site and the rewards, I have com to the conclusion that I will completely skip worrying about rep at all and the rewards are not even close to being justified by the ammount of time I have to spend. I will do some more grind for the Timbermaw to Neutral to turn in the two quest items since I am relative close allready, and I will probably save my scourge stones for later (I have a feleling for all eternity) since I actually get no real benefit from turning them in now either.

Thanks all for some input.

[oldmandennis]

Well it's a question of what you want to play.

If you have been playing this as an always multiplayer RPG.... your quest is more or less over at level 60. In your 15 or so /played days, you have probably seen 15 or so outdoor zones and about 10 intances. Spending a whole bunch of time in the same zone or instance to acquire a slight edge really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I'd suggest rerolling, probably on a new continent, with a new faction. Or waiting for the expansion.

If you are going to play it as a MMORPG, that sort of investment is obviously not unreasonable. At this point, /played of 60-80 days is not uncommon at all. Relative to that commitment, it is pretty easy to get where you need to be with the various factions.

Clearly, the default advancement is supposed to be with raiding. Your collection of friends you acquired in places like SM and ST are supposed to gather into a guild, and your off the cuff instnace runs are supposed to grow into scheduled raids.

If that is not for you, there is always PvP. Don't let the haters get to you - 10 or so hours a week will probably see you through to a bunch of blues. Along the way you will pick up rep with the various BG factions, leading to more blues and even purples.

If you are determined to play it as an almost single player RPG, rep is actually your friend. If it wasn't for rep, you would be wandering the world, spastically killing things in hopes of a random world drop. Rep gives you a direction and a garentee your efforts will eventually pay off. It's not what I would do, but if you want to progress your character without raiding, you could get all the field duty items, the fulbrog trinket, +5 resist all on shoulders... etc. The new D2 set also fits this style perfectly.

[oldmandennis]

You might have to buy some scarabs and stuff off the AH to make your items and maybe be willing to run AQ20 at least a couple of times to make your items, but on the whole, the rewards are good.
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Hmm I'm not sure I agree with this. I don't think AQ20 is puggable without a lot of epics, and people with those epics tend not to pug.

If you are in an organised group there should be no problem distributing scarabs and idols to the people who have the template items, especially since they have no other purpose (Unlike ZG).

I think the CC field duty items are a much better bet for somebody who is averse to raiding. But I think those field duty items make CC probably the best reward/time faction for solo grinding. So its a 1/2 way agree.

/frostshock MJ

[Dozer]

Zandalar:
(Each tier): an amulet for your class (each tier upgrades it)
(Friendly): Bracers for your class, and allows you to get the "ZG Enchant" for your class
(Honored): Uh ... something for your class.  I'm blanking out here.
(Revered): Cheastpiece for your class.
Gotten simply by raiding Zul'Gurub.  Let it come to you as it does, you can replace the Friendly/Honored items with comparable blues, the Revered with comparable epics.
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You forget the amazing shoulder enchants you get at exalted - the only real reason to go all the way :)

[MongoJerry]

It also seems that, even though grouping seems nice (but only as long as you get rep for killing I pressume, then it is a waste) the way is to run instances, right? Does that include raid instances? Seems that to really play the game after level 60, you are forced to go raid style almost which seems a bit sad. Alternatively in part run normal instances, there is no other game outside instances almost.

It's one of the major design issues in the game that there isn't enough level 60 content in general and soloable level 60 content in particular in the game, so much of an issue that there used to be a stickied thread on the topic on the Blizzard general forums. Looking back at the beta and when the game was released, it's clear that Blizzard had put a lot of effort into polishing the level 1-40 content and then as the release date neared, the higher level content got added without as much polish or completeness. The instance dungeons were pretty good, but the outdoor zones were incomplete. The fleshing out of the Searing Gorge, the Hinterlands, Silithus, and the additions of Mauradon and Dire Maul helped out a lot, but other higher level zones like Azshara, Felwood, the Blasted Lands, and the Burning Steppes still feel incomplete or thrown together at the last minute.

Blizzard has promised that this situation will not be true in the future. Obviously, their focus for the expansion is on level 60-70 content, and they have promised that there will be lots of content for level capped players in the expansion. In the meantime, there has been a recent emphasis by Blizzard to add content for level capped non-hardcore raiders. There are now lots of quests to do in Silithus that can even net you epic items. Make sure you look at the rewards for the Field Duty quests, because there are some good items there that you can get at revered and exalted reputation and those quests are largely soloable, although they go faster in a small party. Plus, Blizzard just recently added the whole "tier 0.5" quest line, reitemized the old level 60 instance dungeons, and added a few more bosses and events. Plus, Blizzard has made sure to add the two new 20-man dungeons and 20-man bosses in Silithus as a step between those guilds capable of fielding full consistent 40-man raids and the fully casual player. Finally, it sounds like when Naxxramas comes out, there will be new things for the solo/casual player to do out in the world regarding the Scourge, so hopefully that'll give you more to do.

So, I guess my comment is that, yeah, you are definitely seeing a real design flaw in the current game, but there's hope on the horizon that it will get better. In the meantime, I suggest that you check out Silithus, and if you want to try reputation grinding something, then maybe you should try grinding up reputation with the Cenarian Circle. There are a variety of quests and events to try in Silithus that will hopefully keep you entertained enough while you're going through the grind.

[MongoJerry]

Hmm I'm not sure I agree with this.  I don't think AQ20 is puggable without a lot of epics, and people with those epics tend not to pug.

Yeah, that second boss event is a killer. I just don't know how a pug could get through it. All of the other boss events are pretty easy, though, so I suspect that that second boss event will get nerfed as more people complain about it being too hard.

[lfd]

Plus, Blizzard just recently added the whole "tier 0.5" quest line, reitemized the old level 60 instance dungeons[right][snapback]107074[/snapback][/right]

I guess that's pretty much the point. A lot of the tier 0.5 quest line takes place inside instances, and even if they are new encounters, they're still in the same old instances that we've seen since release. Some of the rebalanced items and sets are now very nice, but if I want them, I now have to run the same dull, nerfed dungeon I've run countless times before _even more times_ due to the lowered drop rates.

When people are bored of Scholomance, Stratholme and Dire Maul, you can't revitalise them or claim you're adding 'new content' by throwing in a couple of new bosses and changing the items. And they're still instances. There's still precious little to do solo or duo at 60, especially if you dislike the Silithus theme. Dragons are exciting to fight. Bugs and wasps aren't.

Blizzard are going the right way with things like the 'quest xp to gold' conversion, but every time I cap a new player I find myself grinding the same few quests in the same few high level areas. At least with starting zones I've six to choose from. The current high level zones are, as you say, woefully incomplete.

And when will the ravasaur trainers in Un'goro Crater actually have anything to say, I wonder... or the Eranikus questline that still dies out in Winterspring with you being asked to fetch a most potent augury, despite the AQ scepter questline adding its own ending to that story. Unfinished, unfinished, unfini...

[MongoJerry]

And when will the ravasaur trainers in Un'goro Crater actually have anything to say, I wonder... or the Eranikus questline that still dies out in Winterspring with you being asked to fetch a most potent augury, despite the AQ scepter questline adding its own ending to that story.  Unfinished, unfinished, unfini...
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And whatever did happen at the Shady Rest Inn? And will we ever get to rescue the king of Stormwind?

[oldmandennis]

The fleshing out of the Searing Gorge, the Hinterlands, Silithus, and the additions of Mauradon and Dire Maul helped out a lot, but other higher level zones like Azshara, Felwood, the Blasted Lands, and the Burning Steppes still feel incomplete or thrown together at the last minute.
[right][snapback]107074[/snapback][/right]

A bit off topic - I'm not a very big fan Mauradon, DM, and ZG in the way they seem kindof bolted into thier zones. Probably some of it has to do with the fact they were added after release. I much prefer it when there is a compelling circle of quest lines, leading you to learn more and more bad stuff, until there is no option but to go into the dungeon and kick some tail. MC-BRD-ULD BWL-BRS, heck even WC have this. I think AQ managed do this, though it took a revamp of Silithus to do it.

I don't really consider the Hinterlands finished until those factions do something.

Felwood seems ok to me for now. I wouldn't be suprised to see them make the Emerald Circle a faction and add quests ahead of the world tree opening.

Azshara will probably get a bit of a revamp to make it the jumping off point for the Maelstorm. There is more going on there then we can see. What is Azuregos guarding?

The burning steppes are a bit barren, and it is tough to see where they could go with it.

Probably the blasted lands and deadwind pass will get revamped with the expansion. At least I hope they continue to revamp and add quests to the zones that hold new dungeons.