Shaman Talents Released!

[MongoJerry]

Basically, yeah.  A straight buff to a class/spec that didn't need it in PvP, a reinforcement of the need to go 31 resto atleast to raid, and a removal of ANY reason to go 31 enhance.
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There wasn't any reason to go 31 enhancement before, so I wouldn't say that they removed anything. If anything, as ildon pointed out very well, the changes allow for Enhancement shaman to be useful in raids for the first time as a buffbot for MT/melee groups. No, it's not enough, but it is an improvement.

[oldmandennis]

There wasn't any reason to go 31 enhancement before
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Grace of Air. It's not alot, but at least its a justification. Still no justification for any elemental, much less 31 elemental.

[MongoJerry]

Grace of Air.  It's not alot, but at least its a justification.  Still no justification for any elemental, much less 31 elemental.
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Um, what?

Maybe not 31 elemental, but 30 elemental / 21 resto is the cookiest of cookie cutter builds. You get most of the healing talents you need for raiding while being fantastic for PvP and solo grinding. I would wager that five out of six shaman on Tichondrius are 30/21ish elemental/resto (plus or minus two points in either tree) and will be still. The oddball raider-only types get mana tide which accounts for most of the other 1/6th. And a fraction of one percent (i.e. one guy in Grim Vengeance) is enhancement.

[oldmandennis]

30/0/21 is a cookie cutter pvp no doubt. There is no +/- a few points, even your hardcore PvP friends acknwoledge the necessity of NS.

The reviews are supposed to break up cookie cutters. I know it did for druids, hunters, and priests. Paladins seemed like they were pulled in too many directions by unreasonable fans to me, but thats a different thread.

The problem for me, and alot of people on my server (and I can't wait for xserver BG's so we can really see who is the PvP bomb... oh I mean I really can't wait, I stopped my auto renewal subscription yesterday) is that absolutly zero, none, zip, zilch elemental talents have ANY relevence at all for raiding. No semi useful cross buffs like crit% on heals or mana pool, nothing. And mana tide IS a big deal. I've caved to the pressure to respec PvE, and most of the shaman in my guild have. And you know what? It works. We finished Nef our second kill after a bad shadow flame that left 15 people up (right after the constructs went down) and we couldn't have done it if the remaining shaman didn't have MT. The healers were scraping the barrel the whole way through, GMP everytime cooldown was up, and MT every 5 min. You say the alliance close out encounters where the horde dies at 1%... Well guilds that don't force a respec die at 1% where guilds that do pull it out.

At least GOA at 31 provided some kind of raiding justification for a deep enhancement build. I was really hoping for a druid style justification for 31 or at least 26 points in each tree for raiding. Instead we got a reinforcement of the already cookie cutters.

And by the way, elemental is Terrible for grinding. Mana efficiency FTL. Grinding is the one thing that enhancement is good at, and failing that, resto. And the nerf to WF will make elemetnal builds even worse at grinding/leveling, though I'm not really crying about it, just pointing it out.

[Mavfin]

My shammy on Terenas is a weird 30/21/0 build that I tried out, and I like it. The changes look like a small buff+a little more versatility.

As far as respec for raiding? This build has as much mana pool as the restos my level, and I have +healing gear, so I'm a very respectable secondary healer in raids. No, no respec here. The good groups learn to adjust, rather than force everyone into specific builds because that's how it's *supposed* to be, IMO.

[MongoJerry]

The problem for me, and alot of people on my server (and I can't wait for xserver BG's so we can really see who is the PvP bomb... oh I mean I really can't wait, I stopped my auto renewal subscription yesterday) is that absolutly zero, none, zip, zilch elemental talents have ANY relevence at all for raiding.  No semi useful cross buffs like crit% on heals or mana pool, nothing.  And mana tide IS a big deal.  I've caved to the pressure to respec PvE, and most of the shaman in my guild have.  And you know what?  It works.  We finished Nef our second kill after a bad shadow flame that left 15 people up (right after the constructs went down) and we couldn't have done it if the remaining shaman didn't have MT.  The healers were scraping the barrel the whole way through, GMP everytime cooldown was up, and MT every 5 min.

*Shrug* Maybe it helped in that one case, but in the end Mana Tide is just a combat mana potion on a five minute timer, and I can use combat mana potions or even major mana potions on a two minute timer as it is. We stick our (one) mana tide shaman in our main tank healer group, and it's nice to see the old "Get in for the ride! Here comes the Mana Tide!" macro and then see my mana bar increase by a small amount. But in the end, it's not really worth gimping your character in PvP (and keep in mind that I'm on a PvP server, so all outdoor areas are PvP areas) just to get it.

You say the alliance close out encounters where the horde dies at 1%... Well guilds that don't force a respec die at 1% where guilds that do pull it out.[right][snapback]109701[/snapback][/right]

That's a misquote. That was in reference to the Huhuran fight specifically, where after she goes berserk at 30%, things can snowball into an avalanche of trouble such that 1-2% wipes are very common. If you die at 5%, you're not really close to beating the encounter, yet.

Now, if Mana Tide were as strong as Blessing of Wisdom and if it worked for players not in your immediate party, then it would be fantastic. Heck, if they just lowered the cooldown timer on it, that would be something. But as it is, it's not that big of a deal.

30/0/21 is a cookie cutter pvp no doubt. There is no +/- a few points, even your hardcore PvP friends acknwoledge the necessity of NS.

Well, some people are actually considering the 31 point elemental talent over nature's swiftness, which might sound crazy, but it has been improved a lot. Some people are thinking of some 28/23 builds, too.

The reviews are supposed to break up cookie cutters.

Ah, now, there's the rub. I agree with you here, and I think more incentive should be given to encourage people to go enhancement or full resto. I just don't think the problems are in the elemental tree.

[oldmandennis]

*Shrug* Maybe it helped in that one case, but in the end Mana Tide is just a combat mana potion on a five minute timer, and I can use combat mana potions or even major mana potions on a two minute timer as it is.  But in the end, it's not really worth gimping your character in PvP (and keep in mind that I'm on a PvP server, so all outdoor areas are PvP areas) just to get it.
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There's more cases like it. It's not a combat potion on a 5 minute timer, it's atleast 3 combat potions on a seperate timer. And when most of your raid has it, you can shuttle shaman in and out of healing groups, and have MT every minute on top of your mana potions? We do that on long, mana intensive fights, nef being the biggest example. Cheesy and we should L2P? Or phat purple victory instead of frustration?

I'm on a PvP server too. As far as world PvP goes, you can make the same argument you are making with regard to PvE - how often do you fight somebody where numbers, gear, and skill are so close that spec makes a difference? At least the resto tree has some applicability to PvP - you still should be healing, the lightning/heal crit is nice, and next patch you get 3% to hit with spells and melee. But yeah, full resto is less fun in BG's.

[Artega]

Mana Tide would be a nice talent if it didn't require the crappiest talents in the tree. Now that those talents are getting buffed or removed, it might be a little less crappy, but I still think I'd rather have 30 points with Purification than 31 points without it and half of the other goodies in the tree.

Honestly I think Elemental Mastery is better than NS in terms of PvP, since getting an autocrit Earth Shock or Chain Lightning is pretty damned hot, especially if you already have a decent spell crit rate. With the new melee talent adding 9% melee crit after a spell crit, I think that EM will definitely become more popular than NS, especially since Elemental/Enhancement builds don't rely on the Shaman's woefully small MP pool as much as Elemental/Restoration builds do.

[oldmandennis]

So... wrong... must... resist flame!

EM vs NS for PvP - its a legit debate... I guess. 600 mana and about 600 damage, against an instant spell that can do the same damage, and is instant cast OR ~2500 heal. The or is the key. You _should_ still be healing in PvP, very often. Personally, I find mana not to be much of a problem in PvP.

The comment "better if you have more spell crit" is just flat wrong. If you had a theoretical 100% spell crit, an auto crit would have zero value. If you had 0 spell crit, it would garentee a bonus 600 damage. So the less spell crit you have (and hopefully more spell damage), the relativly better that talent is.

Shaman only have a woeful mana pool in a few situations. 1 - You are deep enhance, and are using a lot of hunter gear to support it. 2 - you are grinding, and want to use shocks to up your so-so dps, but dont want to drink every 3rd fight. 3 - You are trying to frost shock a high HP raid boss to death.

[Artega]

So... wrong... must... resist flame!

EM vs NS for PvP - its a legit debate... I guess.  600 mana and about 600 damage, against an instant spell that can do the same damage, and is instant cast OR ~2500 heal.  The or is the key.  You _should_ still be healing in PvP, very often.  Personally, I find mana not to be much of a problem in PvP.

The comment "better if you have more spell crit" is just flat wrong.  If you had a theoretical 100% spell crit, an auto crit would have zero value.  If you had 0 spell crit, it would garentee a bonus 600 damage.  So the less spell crit you have (and hopefully more spell damage), the relativly better that talent is.

Shaman only have a woeful mana pool in a few situations.  1 - You are deep enhance, and are using a lot of hunter gear to support it.  2 - you are grinding, and want to use shocks to up your so-so dps, but dont want to drink every 3rd fight.  3 - You are trying to frost shock a high HP raid boss to death.
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Or you're spam-healing a flagcarrier in Warsong in a team with either no other healers, or healers that aren't healing because they're "dps spec."

Or you're throwing shocks, lightning bolts, and totems around while healing yourself and others.

Or any other many situations. Shamans have innately small mana pools and horrible mana efficiency. Maybe epics alleviate this, but my experience is in tier0, not tier5000.

I don't recall my healing waves ever reaching 2500+. And I know for a fact that an Earth Shock crit will hit for at least 1000, not 600. Add an automatic 9% melee crit boost on your next attack following that spell crit, and I'm thinking EM might become more popular or at least AS popular as NS, especially now that it's on the same three-minute cooldown.

[Mavfin]

Or you're spam-healing a flagcarrier in Warsong in a team with either no other healers, or healers that aren't healing because they're "dps spec."

Or you're throwing shocks, lightning bolts, and totems around while healing yourself and others.

Or any other many situations.  Shamans have innately small mana pools and horrible mana efficiency.  Maybe epics alleviate this, but my experience is in tier0, not tier5000.

I don't recall my healing waves ever reaching 2500+.  And I know for a fact that an Earth Shock crit will hit for at least 1000, not 600.  Add an automatic 9% melee crit boost on your next attack following that spell crit, and I'm thinking EM might become more popular or at least AS popular as NS, especially now that it's on the same three-minute cooldown.
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Shock crits break 1000 if you have the talent, yes. If not, probably they don't very often.

[Concillian]

And I know for a fact that an Earth Shock crit will hit for at least 1000, not 600. 
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Crit for 1000 = normal hit for 500

500 damage you would have done anyway... therefore talent adds ~500 damage... he was being generous and saying crit for 1200 = adding 600 damage.

NS allows instant shock + instant chain lightning that gives chances to crit for much higher damage. Or instant healing for added versatility.

My shaman is only a baby at level 40, but I think I'd choose NS, primarily for the versatility of being able to be used for burst damage or for healing as needed. Instant heals while following a flag carrier is a very nice thing.

[oldmandennis]

I don't recall my healing waves ever reaching 2500+.

Ok, the healing wave thing is a bit off. I was remebering my PvE heals, with about 500+ heals, and the new rank from AQ20. Even without that, you still should be close to 2k, I think my point still stands.

Or you're spam-healing a flagcarrier in Warsong in a team with either no other healers, or healers that aren't healing because they're "dps spec."

Or you're throwing shocks, lightning bolts, and totems around while healing yourself and others.

As far as mana goes, I've been semiseriously PvPing since battlegrounds came out. From green to purple. Yeah I run out of mana on occasion, but for me personally, I find 9 times out of 10 I run out of HP before I run out of mana. I find, especially against decent opponents, turning my hands green garentees I will not be able to finish my mana pool.

As far as spam healing the flag carrier - I have found that if it gets to that point, the flag is already lost. If they are getting enough snares on your carrier that spam healing is possible (you aren't constantly stopping your healing to catch up with the carrier) he is probably going to die no matter how much mana you have.

Efficency wise, Shaman aren't too bad off, compared to other casters. Check out hpm or dpm on thott, all casters are pretty close.

  And I know for a fact that an Earth Shock crit will hit for at least 1000, not 600.

Yeah, I'm counting the difference. I was also being generous by not subtracting the normal value of your spell crit from the expected value of your EM shot. While we are at it, you need to subtract a bit from the expected value of the mana free aspect of EM because some percentage of the time you will be in clearcasting.

[Gort]

Tell you what does make me absolutely boiling furious about this review is that Shaman get to keep the 20 minute reduction to Reincarnation where the Paladin talent that gave the same reduction to Divine Intervention was removed in 1.9.

In other words, Horde wipe recovery = 40 minutes with talent, Alliance wipe recovery = 1 hour, no choice of talent. In 5 mans, this is just downright unfair. Ok, so it's a minor point in a specific situation, but that kind of inattention to detail during these reviews really makes me wonder if the left hand is aware of the right hand's activities.

[Concillian]

In other words, Horde wipe recovery = 40 minutes with talent, Alliance wipe recovery = 1 hour, no choice of talent. In 5 mans, this is just downright unfair. Ok, so it's a minor point in a specific situation, but that kind of inattention to detail during these reviews really makes me wonder if the left hand is aware of the right hand's activities.
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I think it's pretty clear Paladin and Shaman were designed to be different, based on the history of the classes and the changes that have been made in the past.

Paladin have features Shaman want, and Shaman have features Paladin want. I'll take that as a sign that they are doing something right in the design of the two classes.

Beyond that, I think comparisons of the abilities of the two classes is well outside the scope of a discussion of the review of the Shaman talent trees.

[Kevin]

Tell you what does make me absolutely boiling furious about this review is that Shaman get to keep the 20 minute reduction to Reincarnation where the Paladin talent that gave the same reduction to Divine Intervention was removed in 1.9.

In other words, Horde wipe recovery = 40 minutes with talent, Alliance wipe recovery = 1 hour, no choice of talent. In 5 mans, this is just downright unfair. Ok, so it's a minor point in a specific situation, but that kind of inattention to detail during these reviews really makes me wonder if the left hand is aware of the right hand's activities.
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My biggest beef is that many paladins were nerfed. It wasn't just them crying because they didn't changes they wanted, a similar 1.9 build to what they had in 1.8 was worse than the old build. My paladin lost DPS, survivability, and healing power. The 1.9 spec I choose settled on kept 1.8 survivability, gave a very very small buff to healing (about a 2-3% increase in healing ability), and I lost about 35% of my DPS. I could not get a spec that had the same DPS as my old 1.8 spec. The best I could do was 5% less DPS, but I lost healing power and staying power with that build.

There were very few paladins I know or talked to that felt the changes buffed the paladin. They got some buffs to making dealing with raid situations easier. The playstyle of the class got a bit more interactive. Certain healing builds got a little better at healing. I think a few of the heal centric builds got a little bit of a damage boost at the cost of staying power (have to burn a lot more mana for that damage boost). Some DPS builds might have gotten a little more DPS at the cost of staying power (again pretty much every build had to spend more mana to just keep the same DPS as an old build). Some PvP builds got buffed a little bit.

I've yet to talk to a shaman player that feels the changes will nerf the class.

Many of the paladin changes also felt very very arbitrary. This was reinforced when they redid some of the review after initial feedback and just moved talents willy nilly as best as I could tell. The shaman changes at least seem to make sense in the context of the class, at least if you can wrap your head around what it looks like the developers envision the class as being. They streamlined and gave some minor, or in some case significant (from what I've read) buffs to several different builds. Sure we'll have to see how it actually plays, but I still don't see anyone saying that shamans have been nerfed in the patch, they just weren't changed to peoples expectations.

[Artega]

Crit for 1000 = normal hit for 500

500 damage you would have done anyway... therefore talent adds ~500 damage... he was being generous and saying crit for 1200 = adding 600 damage.

NS allows instant shock + instant chain lightning that gives chances to crit for much higher damage.  Or instant healing for added versatility. 

My shaman is only a baby at level 40, but I think I'd choose NS, primarily for the versatility of being able to be used for burst damage or for healing as needed.  Instant heals while following a flag carrier is a very nice thing.
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Of course, we're both ignoring the fact that you get more than just Elemental Mastery or Nature's Swiftness by going that far into that tree.

With EM, you'll be getting 1.5s Chain Lightnings (fast enough to be considered instant for most purposes as far as I'm concerned), 2.0s Lightning Bolts, and other goodies (like Improved Fire Nova.)

With NS, you'll be getting a nearly unstaggerable LHW, 5% boost to healing and lightning crit chance (you get a 6% with Elemental, which is why 30/21 can be so nice), and lowered totem and healing spell costs.

Personally I prefer my 31/20 Elemental/Enhancement build; I'm often able to kill my targets quickly enough that I don't find a need to heal myself or others, though I'm still fully capable of healing if need be. True, I can't drop a Healing Wave at the drop of a hat, but if we're talking about organized PvP (I've been talking about PUG vs. PUG since that's what 80% of BGs are), you'd be marked for silencing or destruction before you could fire that NS+HW, anyway. Assuming you've been healing frequently, at any rate.

[Artega]

As far as spam healing the flag carrier - I have found that if it gets to that point, the flag is already lost.  If they are getting enough snares on your carrier that spam healing is possible (you aren't constantly stopping your healing to catch up with the carrier) he is probably going to die no matter how much mana you have.
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Not necessarily. While I haven't seen my carriers survive when I'm the only one healing (and they're generally other shamans still carrying a two-hander or a warrior with a two-hander, since Druids are impossibly hard to find in PUGs these days), I've survived a walk from one side of the field to the other side with only a single Shaman providing healing and the occasional Frost Shock or Earthbind (as a Shaman, I consider them as much healing tools as damage tools.) Granted, I've never survived the entire opposing team attacking me when I only have a single Shaman providing healing, but part of CTF is misleading your opponents so they don't have the opportunity to clump their entire team on your carrier :)

[Concillian]

Of course, we're both ignoring the fact that you get more than just Elemental Mastery or Nature's Swiftness by going that far into that tree.
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Actually I was comparing a 21 R / 30 Ele build vs a 20 R /31 Ele build. So I'm ignoring the rest of the tree because I'm assuming it doesn't change.

Fast enough to be considered instant is instant to me. 1.5 seconds is not fast enough to be considered instant... you can't cast a 1.5 second spell while MOVING, but you can use NS and cast another spell while moving. Applies to damage spells as well as keeping up with a flag carrier in WSG while being able to heal him.

[oldmandennis]

Not necessarily.&nbsp; <snip a bunch of WSG experiance>
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Hmm, I don't want to be too condesending here. You have 2 characters listed on your profile. Neither is 60.

I'm not sure your experiences really line up with the reality of level 60 battle grounds. In particular, I'm sceptical of your assertions that 80% of BG's are pugs, druids are hard to find, and I can tell you that 1.5 seconds is not close to instant.