Noobish Questions (updated frequently)

[Mavfin]

Mav isn't talking about the difference in hundreds of health, but the difference in up to 77 Health vs. 2% block (the two popular shield enchants right now).  So the real question is, when is that 2% block (1 in 50 hits) going to be more beneficial than +77 health.  With the fact that most shields now have +additional block damage built in (both the Drillborer, Aegis, and Bulwarks) and 3 piece Might increases +block damage by 30, it's not too hard to get over 100 damage blocked on a shield.  So what it comes down to is, when is +2% block with >100 damage blocked going to outweigh +77 Health from the +7 Stamina enchant.

As your base % Block grows, so does the likelihood that you will block more often from that +2% block thus meaning you would mitigate more damage than you would get to your overall Health.  So, it's a matter of putting together a spreadsheet and looking at how often you'll block considering incoming strikes.  Just off the top of my head, somewhere around +18% to +23% Block is where the +2% Block enchant should be better than +7 Stamina to shield.
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Yes. I'm not talking about the base +2% block on Drillborer or Aegis of the Blood God, but the enchant. +7 stam, or +2% block. I'm using +2%, and I'm about 19% block with it. So, equipping Drillborer ups my block by 4%.

As far as stam in general *hell yeah*, I want more. But, as I alluded to earlier, I'm basically having to depend on better gear for that, having done about all I can do for permanent stam atm. (as opposed to temporary like Lung Juice, etc) My issue is just with shield enchant, which is better.

[Legedi]

What I'm saying is when mobs don't hit super hard (aka: not BWL) stacking a lot of block is helpfull. It takes enough hits to kill you that if you block some of them you have migrated enough damage you might not die. So the +2% chance to block along with other +% block items is useful.

Once you get into the range of a few hits could kill you the chance of multiple blocks happening decreases.

Example:

1) you have 7000 HP a mob hits for 500 and you block for 100. If you block zero hits you die in 14 hits, if you block 1-5 you die in 15, if you block 6-10 you die in 16. Getting a high chance to block increases the chance you'll be able to take a few more hits.

2) you have 7000 HP a mob hits for 2000 and you block for 100. Four hits you die, period. But if through HP gear, and HP buff you can get over 8000 HP you'll take one more hit.

Of course you can only do +7 stam on a shield, not +100. So it's not like you are giving up hundreds of HP for +2% block.

I think I kind of when off on a different tangent than you guys. I'm just showing why I think +blocking percent becomes less useful.

[Mavfin]

What I'm saying is when mobs don't hit super hard (aka: not BWL) stacking a lot of block is helpfull. It takes enough hits to kill you that if you block some of them you have migrated enough damage you might not die. So the +2% chance to block along with other +% block items is useful.

Once you get into the range of a few hits could kill you the chance of multiple blocks happening decreases.

Example:

1) you have 7000 HP a mob hits for 500 and you block for 100. If you block zero hits you die in 14 hits, if you block 1-5 you die in 15, if you block 6-10 you die in 16. Getting a high chance to block increases the chance you'll be able to take a few more hits.

2) you have 7000 HP a mob hits for 2000 and you block for 100. Four hits you die, period. But if through HP gear, and HP buff you can get over 8000 HP you'll take one more hit.

Of course you can only do +7 stam on a shield, not +100. So it's not like you are giving up hundreds of HP for +2% block.

I think I kind of when off on a different tangent than you guys. I'm just showing why I think +blocking percent becomes less useful.
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Frankly, on mobs that hit that hard, neither 2% block on a shield, or +7 stam is going to make that much difference. Either the heals land, or you die in 4 (at 7000) or 5 (at 8000) hits. So, I guess I'll keep my +2% for all the other tanking I do. :shuriken: As far as other stam, heck yeah, pile it on.

[Kevin]

I actually agree that blocking is better the weaker the mobs. My old prot build I could actually make myself essentially immune to mobs for awhile via shield block (I had the improved block and one point in shield block so it blocked 2 attacks). When you suck up 110 damage some of the mobs you gring against can't hurt you. You get 15 rage from charge, flop to def stance put up block, block 2 attacks (gaining 2 rage from the block talent and probably 8 more from the damage you did) hopefully get a parry/dodge/block/miss from base skill put up shield block again. Take pretty much no damage. And drillborer + 3 piece might is 110 damage blocked for me.


So yeah block has some fun uses and as mentioned in MC really can be a factor towards mitigation and is a bigger factor, as you said when the healers aren't geared as well and you aren't geared as well and DPS isn't geared as well and fights go on longer.

I'm to the point now, even being geared in a tier between you and Mav, that I've thought about just tanking with a 2 hander or dual wield on the MC trash. :) If it lets the DPS do that much more damage because I'm generating that much more aggro I don't think the slight healing increase will matter. :) I've been tanking 5 mans dual wield def stance for awhile (for the extra threat which far outpaces the lowered damage from the stance only put the shield on for a a bash or slam rage dump :) ).


The other thing I like about +7 stam is that against most non physical attacks block does no good (the exceptions I can think of off the top of my head are firelords and Baron geddon who do all fire damage but can still have the delivery mechanism for that damage blocked or parried).

I'm in the same boat as Keshi. I don't raid as much I gear up more slowly so the more stam I can stack from anywhere the happier I am. (GIB PURPLE BRACES PLEASE KTHX :) )

So yeah I still think for most cases stacking stamina helps more. Maybe if I had any gear besides drillborer that added block % and could get to some of the break points, but at this stage I'm still happier with 10 def for my 5 talent points (drilled down to defiance when I switched to the 31/5/15) than with 5% more block. I think def helps more with preventing bad luck than block will as well and when I have to give up more def in fire gear but the mobs still do physical damage I'd much rather have that extra def back via talents.

But that is just me.

[Darian]

So for my warrior I have about 15% parry and dodge, 22% block rate, and 400 def (10% miss rate of 60 mobs). So what is first calculated is if I'm hit: .85*.85*.9= 65% chance to be hit. Then I block or take full damage on the rest.[right][snapback]105250[/snapback][/right]

Nitpick correction, only for the purpose of being thorough: ;)

"So what is first calculated is if I'm hit: .85*.85*.9= 65% chance to be hit. Then I block or take ((full damage) * (% damage mitigation)) on the rest."

I'm going to really go overboard and show how this works; someone's more than welcome to try and clean this mess up, since I know I've bounced all over the place down below. ;) We'll partially use Legedi's example here, and partially use some numbers I'll pull out of my ass. Remember that this only applies to melee damage!

parry: 15%
dodge: 15%
block: 22%
shield block value: 69
strength: 330

The block formula is (Shield block value) + (Strength / 22), which gives us:

Block mitigation: 84
Chance of being critted with 400 defense by a level 60 mob: 1% (5% - ((defense -300)*.04))
Chance of a crushing blow: 0; he's 60, mob's 60
Armor mitigation: We'll assume he's at 9000 Armor; that's 62% reduction.

If the mob hits (non-crit) for 1000, he's got a 65% chance of being hit; if he does, in fact, get hit he's got a 22% chance of taking 266 (350 - 84), and a 78% chance of taking 350. So he's got a 35% chance to take 0 damage, a 7.7% chance of taking 266, and a 27.3% chance of taking 350.

But we have to figure crits in here, too. There's a 1% chance that he'll get critted. That 1% chance comes out of the HIT chance, not the miss chance; therefore he's still got a 35% chance to take 0 damage. Thus, we get the following chances:

35.00% = 000
50.19% = 350
14.16% = 266
00.51% = 700
00.14% = 532

Another way of looking at this is the way the PRNG looks at it:

/random 0-9999

0000-3499 = 000
3500-8518 = 350
8519-9934 = 266
9935-9985 = 700
9986-9999 = 532

Over 10000 swings from that opponent, he'd take an average of 217.6 points of damage, or 21.76% of that mob's potential damage output.

So, overall, what you're looking at is a complex formula, all the variables of which (save one) we are given or can derive.

Static values:

STR
AGI
Armor
DEF
block value (BV)
character level (CL)
mob level (ML)
+%tohit bonuses from talents and items (TH)
Parry (P)
Dodge (D)
Block (B)

(Although Parry, Dodge, and Block are derived values, your character screen will accurately show your current values for those stats.)

Derived values:

Mob weapon skill vs. player defense modifier ($s): ((ML*5)-(CL*5))
- All mobs have a weapon skill of (ML * 5). If you were calclulating against another player, you'd substitite (Opponent's weapon skill) for (ML * 5) in all formulas calling for ML with the exception of the crushing blow calculations, which do not apply, and for Physical Mitigation, in which case "ML" = "opponent level".

Chance to receive a crit ($c): (.05 - ((DEF - ((ML*5)+$s)) * .04))
- this number cannot be zero; however, it can be below .001. Nobody's managed to stumble on the exact cutoff yet; I would guess that no matter what, there's one chance in 1000 you'll get hit with a critical, even if the calculation equals zero.

Modifier to crushing blow chance ($cm): if (DEF < (CL*5)) , (((CL * 5) - DEF) * 0.02) , else 0
- in other words, if your defense is below 300 at level 60, or 295 at 59, etc., you suffer a 2% penalty -- reflected in an increased chance of getting crushed -- per point of defense below your maximum unbuffed defense.

Chance for a crushing blow ($cb): if ML !> CL, 0, else (((ML-CL)*.05)+$cm)

Chance to be missed ($m): ((.04 - ((DEF - ((ML*5)+$s)) * .04)) + P + D - TH)
- unconfirmed cap at 60%, so assume that if $m > .6, $m = .6. $m MUST be at least .01. Also note: this means that "+tohit" items are actually "-tomiss" items.

Chance to be hit: we'll get to that in a moment.

Blocked damage ($j): ((BV) + (STR / 22))

Physical mitigation ($i): ((Armor / (Armor + 400 + 85 * ML)) * 100)
- Your level is irrelevant. This number cannot exceed 75%.

Base damage: This is the one variable we're in the dark about, as all mobs are different, but for a given mob base damage should be considered as consistent (or, at least, a consistent range). For the purposes of our chart below, "Damage" is merely going to be whatever number you think is appropriate given the mob; what you want to know is "how much am I truly mitigating over being naked?" The values given for damage below inherently assume (Base damage * (100-$i)).

What's all this mean?

So what you get is a table split into 7 rows, just like the chart with five rows I demonstrated in two different formats way up above. Why only five up above, but seven down here? There's two additional possible outcomes which were not possible in Legedi's original example, as a level 60 mob cannot land a crushing blow on a level 60 player (and players CANNOT land crushing blows, period). Some of the values (rows 1, 2, and 7) we directly derived above; the other four are further derived from those values plus the Block Value (which we know as a static number based on the shield and/or bonuses).

1. chance to take no damage ($m)
2. change to receive a crit ($c)
3. chance to receive a crit, but block ($v): = ($c * (100-B))
4. chance to receive a crushing blow ($cb)
5. chance to receive a crushing blow, but block ($x): = ($cb * (100-B)
6. chance to be hit, but block ($y): = ((100-($m + $c + $v + $cb + $x))
7. chance to be hit normally: = (100-$y)

Note that "chance to be hit normally" basically boils down to "whatever's left over."

The result of each row of that table is a damage calculation, as follows (where D = base damage - $i):

1: D*0
2: D*2
3: (D*2)-BV
4: D*4
5: (D*4)-BV
6: D-BV
7: D

Clear as mud? ;)

EDIT, 3/29: fixed the crushing blow conditional error GG pointed out.

[Legedi]

If the mob hits (non-crit) for 1000, he's got a 65% chance of being hit; if he does, in fact, get hit he's got a 22% chance of taking 266 (350 - 84), and a 78% chance of taking 350. So he's got a 65% chance to take 0 damage, a 7.7% chance of taking 266, and a 27.3% chance of taking 350.[right][snapback]105302[/snapback][/right]

I think you meant to say a 35% chance to take 0 damage. I'll let you change the rest. It will give me more time to figure out what the heck you said. ;)

And for completeness I block 94 damage raid buffed. It was 124 with aegis of the blood god, but I like the extra 20 stam on the buru :).

I've dreamed of getting close to 200 block some day. If i used the aegis, had two zg enchants (+15 each), and the wrath boots and shoulders I'd be at 195ish. Now that is getting back to making a big difference, even against BWL bosses.

[Darian]

I think you meant to say a 35% chance to take 0 damage. I'll let you change the rest. It will give me more time to figure out what the heck you said. ;)
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DOH! Fixed. ;)

[Kevin]

So where is our average time to live website calculator for this? :)

Plug in your values then you can see if 7 stam or 2% block will, on average, given the average damage of a mob and an average swing speed of a mob make you last longer to physical attacks (no specials involved :) ). Whip that up for me will you, cause I can do it in Excel but everything is better on the web! :)

[Kevin]

Modifier to crushing blow chance ($cm): if ((CL * 5) < DEF)), ((CL * 5) - (DEF * .02)), else 0
- in other words, if your defense is below 300 at level 60, or 295 at 59, etc., you suffer a 2% penalty -- reflected in an increased chance of getting crushed -- per point of defense below your maximum unbuffed defense.
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You got your conditionals mucked up here and a bad paren on the true condition, should be.

if (DEF < (CL*5)) , (((CL * 5) - DEF) * 0.02) , else 0

at least that matches your explanation. Your formula says, If your max possible defense for you level is less than your current defense you have a crushing blow modifier of your max possible defense for you level minus 2% of your current defense. Or an example if you had 290 def at L60 you would have a CB modifier of 294.2%. Well actually it would be zero based on the error in the conditional because 300 is not less than 290. :)

[Warlock]

I've also heard that shield block prevents crushing blows. Not having a warrior tank, I've never been able to test for it.

Stam is better than 2% block if you are more likely to die due to a damage spike than due to your healer(s) running out of mana.

[Skandranon]

I've also heard that shield block prevents crushing blows. Not having a warrior tank, I've never been able to test for it.
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I've heard the same from my guild's tanks, though I've never followed up on whether they've done tests or not. They appear to believe, and I don't know that this is true (but I don't know that it is false) that a blocked attack cannot be crushing. In that case, extra block can prevent a lot more in the way of damage spikes than a little bit more stam.

[Artega]

I've heard the same from my guild's tanks, though I've never followed up on whether they've done tests or not.&nbsp; They appear to believe, and I don't know that this is true (but I don't know that it is false) that a blocked attack cannot be crushing.&nbsp; In that case, extra block can prevent a lot more in the way of damage spikes than a little bit more stam.
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Blocks cannot be crushing blows. This is why a high block value and Improved Shield Block are so valuable.

[Lissa]

Blocks cannot be crushing blows.&nbsp; This is why a high block value and Improved Shield Block are so valuable.
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If I'm reading this line of thought correctly, this means then that every tank out there should be shooting for as high a block as possible along with as high a defense as possible to stop crushing blows from occuring from bosses (since trash usually don't do enough in a crushing blow for end game raids). This then means that 2% shield block enchant is much better than +7 Stamina enchant because that 2% gives you a better chance of turning a crushing blow into a normal hit (be it crit or standard hit) which is a lot more survivable.

[Legedi]

I've also heard that shield block prevents crushing blows. Not having a warrior tank, I've never been able to test for it.
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That doesn't sound right to me. I could swear that I've blocked on crushing blows. It would make blocking very overpowered against all raid bosses. But I'll have to test it out ASAP to see.

[Kevin]

That doesn't sound right to me. I could swear that I've blocked on crushing blows. It would make blocking very overpowered against all raid bosses. But I'll have to test it out ASAP to see.
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I believe I have blocked damage on crushing as well. I'm pretty sure I've seen things like

Ragnaros hits your 1800 (crushing) (60 blocked) in my combat log.


However, if a block stops a crush then yes, 2% block is way better than 7 stam, no doubt about it.

[Legedi]

I payed close attention to my combat log on Mag in the last MC. I would not use shield block, and most the crushings where in the 1000 damage range. Then when I started spaming shield block a lot of them seemed to be in the 900 range. What it looks like is you can block a crushing, but it only reports the crushing part.

Now that was a very small test, but it is what I would expect to happen.

[GenericKen]

New batch of questions:

1) Hit 38 and getting sick of stranglethorn vale. I know I should be getting to the scarlet monestary, but I really have no clue how I would as alliance. Where do you base yourself from (is there a small alliance town near the undead capital)? How do you even get to the north continent of the eastern kingdoms? (You don't walk across wetlands... do you?)

2) After getting my mount at 40, is there anything I should be saving up for other than skills and equipment?

3) How frequently should I be updating the dps on my weapons? Every 2 levels? Every 4?

4) Are there any addons that give a timer for the health/mana/energy regeneration pulses? For a rogue, I find that starting combat right before the energy regen is rather important, and I often find myself most effective bouncing from combat to combat counting out the energy pulses.

[Skandranon]

1) Hit 38 and getting sick of stranglethorn vale. I know I should be getting to the scarlet monestary, but I really have no clue how I would as alliance. Where do you base yourself from (is there a small alliance town near the undead capital)? How do you even get to the north continent of the eastern kingdoms? (You don't walk across wetlands... do you?)

Fly to Southshore and run north. The safest and longest way is through Silverpine Forest, following the road. A little less safe but quicker is swimming across Lake Lordamere. The fastest way is to cross through Western Plaguelands and dash through the Horde outpost.

As for getting to the north continent, you do indeed walk across the Wetlands. Explore the northern border of Wetlands sometime.

2) After getting my mount at 40, is there anything I should be saving up for other than skills and equipment?

Not really. Epic mount is at 60, but realistically you'll be 60 for a while before getting it.

3) How frequently should I be updating the dps on my weapons? Every 2 levels? Every 4?

When you feel that you aren't killing things fast enough.

4) Are there any addons that give a timer for the health/mana/energy regeneration pulses? For a rogue, I find that starting combat right before the energy regen is rather important, and I often find myself most effective bouncing from combat to combat counting out the energy pulses.
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Yes. Search around, they aren't hard to find.

[Watto44]

2) After getting my mount at 40, is there anything I should be saving up for other than skills and equipment?

A new, better mount! Get your 2006 model kodo now!

Seriously though, I've found that I spent a lot of money on enchants when I had just hit 60 (particularly when you factor in the libram enchants). It's worth while trying to hook-up with a friendly enchanter and looking at the materials you're going to need for them.

Also, do a bit of research before splashing out on new gear. A lot of the time a very similar piece of equipment can be had for free from questing or running instances.

3) How frequently should I be updating the dps on my weapons? Every 2 levels? Every 4?

As Skand said, when you start to notice that you're not killing this quickly enough. It sounds pretty ephemeral, but it's pretty obvious when you're grinding and things go from "woo!" to "boo".

4) Are there any addons that give a timer for the health/mana/energy regeneration pulses? For a rogue, I find that starting combat right before the energy regen is rather important, and I often find myself most effective bouncing from combat to combat counting out the energy pulses.

There are a bunch of mods that will give you an energy timer. Check out http://www.curse-gaming.com/mod.php under the rogue section. Bear in mind that the 1.10 patch broke a lot of mods and that it's worth while shopping around for one that's been updated. :) (I'm currently using EnergyWatch v2, which seems to work post patch. You can find it here: http://www.curse-gaming.com/mod.php?addid=2233)

edit: Hehe, bad link. Fixed

[GenericKen]

1) When you freeze your blizzard account, do they sweep your mail boxes or do you have 30 days before the mail expires? (I'm starting a new job soon, and I think I'll cancel for maybe the first month or so, until I get settled in).

2) Where do you pick up the scarlet monestary quests?