the once and future Spangles

[Rinnhart]

What tal said. HS eats a white swing.

[Tal]

:blink:

Rend is a DOT, and doesn't do any damage until a couple seconds after application, when the first tick happens.  It doesn't crit and all the damage is yellow damage.  Am I missing something about rend?  Do you have improved improved rend?

I'd say you were thinking of another skill, but I can't think of any skill that uses rage and also has the potential to generate rage (except for druids >_<).&nbsp; Maybe shield block can if you have shield spec, but you're mitigating damage to gain 1 rage, so it's probably not an overall net gain.
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Applying the rend is a strike.

[Artega]

Those things are all great, which is why they are also in my build.&nbsp; I suggested dual weild vs. the impale line (Imp. Rend + Deep Wounds + Impale), and you said the DW spec talent was garbage.&nbsp; If you skip the impale line, as you said you would in a fury build, there are plenty of points to get all the talents you listed plus DW spec.

I'm at a total loss.&nbsp; :blink:
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Eh, I dumped the extras into the Arms tree for things like Improved Charge and Improved Heroic Strike. I just don't think a 4% increase in white damage is worth the exchange for improvements to skills you use (nearly) every single fight.

I also picked up Improved Cleave with some of my builds, and liked the results (especially with an Arms build - SS with Improved Cleave can create truly scary damage against multiple targets.)

[Artega]

Applying the rend is a strike.
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That does no damage. Where are you getting this white damage from? Is it possible that you're attacking at the same time you're applying Rend?

[Tal]

That does no damage.&nbsp; Where are you getting this white damage from?&nbsp; Is it possible that you're attacking at the same time you're applying Rend?
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I'll do some tests tonite if I have time before Onyxia.

[Kevin]

5/5 parry
5/5 tactical mastery
2/2 improved overpower
arms total: 12

5/5 cruelty
5/5 unbridled wrath
1/1 piercing howl
5/5 improved battle shout
5/5 enrage
5/5 dual wield specification
2/2 improved execute
2/2 improved intercept
1/1 death wish
5/5 flurry
2/2 improved berserker rage
1/1 bloodthirst
fury total: 39

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I would strongly consider removing 1 point from dual wield spec (putting it at 4/5) and putting that in Anger Management. This gives you a few benefits when grinding.

One is passive rage generation in combat (and there are tricks you can play to start combat will a full rage bar because of this as well though I have a feeling they would be considered exploits and in the grand scheme of things are likely not to be too big a time saver for grinding) but 1 rage every 3 seconds for free is nice.

Two, while this is more something that arms warriors will see more frequently than fury warriors I would imagine, you can choose to not execute and move to the next mob with higher starting rage. Arms builds can often do something like MS, sword spec crit, regular attack crit and drop a mob from 30-50 to 5-10% life rapidly and end up with 20+ rage and only needing to do as much damage as a HS or even just a normal swing or two to kill the mob. If you know that you will be engaging another foe within the next 5 to 10 seconds, you may just want to opt for not executing, saving the rage and using it on the next mob. The slower decay of your rage provided by anger management makes this window in which you can choose to save rage and only extend the current encounter by 1 to 2 seconds much larger. This can speed up overall grinding speed a lot as you can enter combat with 40-50 rage (saved rage + charge rage + initial swing rage) which allows you to string together some very powerful attacks on the next mob which you may or may not want to finish with an execute again depending on rage levels and mob health. With improved execute and the lower health of mobs that are ground, a 10 rage execute for 500-600 is often enough to finish the fight rapidly especially with a greater than 20% crit rate.

Third, if the execute doesn't kill the mob but two or three more rapid swings of white damage do, you could be staring at 10 rage and might have a fully refreshed Battle Shout if a mob is not immediately round this rage will rapidly waste without management, so you might have only 3 left when you could have had 5. Not huge, but it just adds flexibility to the build. So much so that even as a protection spec I end up getting this skill and at times would use it to allow me to autoattack down a weaker mob to build the rage pool then head off to the tougher mob with a full bar that decay down to 70 rage instead of 50 and could then sunder and shield slam it down much faster and safer.

It also makes playing rage games where you use a hamstring to try and fire an overpower.

I think the generated rage and other flexibility is worth more than 5% more damage on the offhand. I think AM will generate more rage than the one more point there will.

The other option is that if you don't PvP alot, taking the points out of improved intercept. Both Zerker Rage and Intercept start at 30 second cooldown so you can sitll power one with the other. Generally though since you seem as though you will be finishing with execute, changing to battle and then charging to get to the next mob will be just as fast and get you more rage to do more damage. But that is more from my playstyle than anything. I even "waste" rage changing stances to charge. If I have between 25 and 40 rage I will gain rage from changing and charging. Improved charge changes this 43 or 46 rage for the upper end where you still end up with more rage. This can be dumped into a bloodthrist before changing back to zerker, sure that thrist is at 3% less crit but it comes at the start of the fight and will likely have another one on it's heals as you can zerker rage or bloodlust.


As to the overpower, I've never seen macros that involve skills that require another stance light up when usable. Might be another mod that does that. You can get scrolling combat text and set it to show a big OVERPOWER when the mob dodges you for another visual cue to use the macro you have.

[Tal]

I'll do some tests tonite if I have time before Onyxia.
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According to a friend the crits I may have been seeing and connecting to rend may have been white damage crits prior to the attack rather than a crit from applying rend. I'll still try to do some tests tonite to see what I come up with.

Aside from that I still don't agree that rend is vastly inefficient for rage purposes and it may just be chalked up to individual playstyle.

[Skandranon]

According to a friend the crits I may have been seeing and connecting to rend may have been white damage crits prior to the attack rather than a crit from applying rend. I'll still try to do some tests tonite to see what I come up with.

Aside from that I still don't agree that rend is vastly inefficient for rage purposes and it may just be chalked up to individual playstyle.
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Just like Mortal Strike, Rend is an "instant" attack that is unconnected to your white damage. The benefit is that it doesn't eat your white swing the way HS does, and so is pretty good rage-wise. You still get one more white swing by pressing Rend instead of HS.

[Ynir]

I would strongly consider removing 1 point from dual wield spec (putting it at 4/5) and putting that in Anger Management.&nbsp; This gives you a few benefits when grinding.&nbsp;

Anger management is in, next respec. But I would rather take the point from parry, which I can augment from gear, rather than DW spec or improved intercept.

I certainly will try killing in parallel, so to speak, instead of serially. My new configuration is more robust staminawise, so Spangles can take more damage from an untargeted mob than before.

As to the overpower, I've never seen macros that involve skills that require another stance light up when usable. Might be another mod that does that. You can get scrolling combat text and set it to show a big OVERPOWER when the mob dodges you for another visual cue to use the macro you have.

If you put a duplicate copy of the disarm button, for example, in a stationary place other than a hotbor, you will see it light up from any stance. That effect is part of the original UI. I have seen the overpower macro button light up, but extremely seldom. I remember the original overpowe button lighting up all the time before respeccing into fury.

Is the macro button failing to light when the original overpower button lights? I will put both side by side in stationary places, and see if one lights up without the other.

[Tal]

According to a friend the crits I may have been seeing and connecting to rend may have been white damage crits prior to the attack rather than a crit from applying rend. I'll still try to do some tests tonite to see what I come up with.

Aside from that I still don't agree that rend is vastly inefficient for rage purposes and it may just be chalked up to individual playstyle.
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I killed 10 level 48 elites outside of Onyxia's lair. After initial engagement I turned off autoattack and struck the elites with only rend. Nine out of ten took physical damage from applying the rend and I gained rage (which may have been normal rage generation). The one attack that is different I critted and procc'd deepwounds.

[Artega]

I killed 10 level 48 elites outside of Onyxia's lair. After initial engagement I turned off autoattack and struck the elites with only rend. Nine out of ten took physical damage from applying the rend and I gained rage (which may have been normal rage generation). The one attack that is different I critted and procc'd deepwounds.
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Interesting. I know that using Rend also immediately activates your autoattack, but I imagine your combat log would specifically state whether the Rage-generating damage comes from Rend or Attack. I still doubt I'll use Rend more than once every few decades, but this is nifty to know; as you mentioned, it's a playstyle choice. In PvP, I don't have time to wait 21 seconds for the damage to take place - in PvE, you have all the time in the world :)

[Artega]

A friend of mine mentioned that he'd read something about Anger Management's passive Rage generation being fixed in an upcoming patch (perhaps specifically due to the whole ability to enter fights with 100 Rage.) I've been searching the Blizzard forums for mention of this, but haven't had much luck so far. Something that you may want to keep in mind if you're up to 50g respecs, though :)

[Tal]

Interesting.&nbsp; I know that using Rend also immediately activates your autoattack, but I imagine your combat log would specifically state whether the Rage-generating damage comes from Rend or Attack.&nbsp; I still doubt I'll use Rend more than once every few decades, but this is nifty to know; as you mentioned, it's a playstyle choice.&nbsp; In PvP, I don't have time to wait 21 seconds for the damage to take place - in PvE, you have all the time in the world :)
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The combat log listed lines like "You hit dragonkin for 111"
"Dragonkin is afflicted with rend"

And autoattack remained off.

[Artega]

The combat log listed lines like "You hit dragonkin for 111"
"Dragonkin is afflicted with rend"

And autoattack remained off.
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Weird. Rend, Hamstring, and other associated abilities always end up turning on autoattack for me.

Even with this information, I think it would be difficult to recommend Rend over Hamstring if you're trying to force a Flurry or Deep Wounds (especially since Arms builds will have Improved Hamstring, unless they're Pole Arms.) Still, it's interesting to know.

[Ynir]

A friend of mine mentioned that he'd read something about Anger Management's passive Rage generation being fixed in an upcoming patch (perhaps specifically due to the whole ability to enter fights with 100 Rage.)&nbsp; I've been searching the Blizzard forums for mention of this, but haven't had much luck so far.&nbsp; Something that you may want to keep in mind if you're up to 50g respecs, though :)
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Thanks, I'll wait for next large patch before taking action :(

[Concillian]

A friend of mine mentioned that he'd read something about Anger Management's passive Rage generation being fixed in an upcoming patch (perhaps specifically due to the whole ability to enter fights with 100 Rage.)&nbsp; I've been searching the Blizzard forums for mention of this, but haven't had much luck so far.&nbsp; Something that you may want to keep in mind if you're up to 50g respecs, though :)
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At this point it's pure speculation.

What there is on the forums is a note that they are "looking into" anger management providing an extra 1 rage per tick, but unlike many things listed for the warrior class issues, it does not have a "-- Future Patch" note next to it, which tells me at the very least, any change will occur after 1.10.

But the change that is made could just as easily be an updated tooltip to note the extra rage. I think without AM giving 1 rage per couple seconds when in combat, it's utility drops to near that of talent points in improved thunderclap. I wouldn't be surprised either way, if they fix the tooltip or if they remove the extra rage in combat. But like I said, any change will likely be a couple months away.

[Concillian]

The combat log listed lines like "You hit dragonkin for 111"
"Dragonkin is afflicted with rend"

And autoattack remained off.
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This was not my experience.

Try autoattacking with a sufficiently slow weapon (big red should suffice). in-between autoattacks, do a rend.

My normal pattern is to charge and immediately MS (improved charge gives enough rage on a hit to make this possible). Doing so against some mobs in Silithus tonight I'd get a log that looked somewhat like:

whatever the charge message is
You hit Dredge Crusher for xxx
Your mortal strike hits Dredge Crusher for xxx
Dredge Crusher is afflicted by Mortal Strike
Dredge Crusher hits you for xx
Dredge Crusher is afflicted by Rend
Dredge Crusher hits you for xx
You hit Dredge Crusher for xxx

Mob attack speed is generally 2.0 secs. So he can fit 2 attacks in-between swings with my 3.5 speed weapon. Doing it directly after charge guarantees it (charge stun + autoattack, 1.0 seconds pass, mob hits me, 3.0 seconds seconds pass, mob hits me, 3.5 seconds pass, I hit mob). Try this and you will see that rend does not have an associated hit or any white damage. Rend is purely yellow damage and the first bit of damage happens after a few seconds (first tick)

[Artega]

Perhaps I'm just being negative, but Blizzard has done nothing but hand out little bitty nerfs to Warriors since the "Warrior review" patch ages ago - every patch, we lose a little something.

We (and the poor Rogues, too) lost attack speed as a factor in choosing weapons for our instants due to weapon speed normalization for instants.

We lost 15% off our Enrage buff, due primarily to Mortal Strike Warriors being capable of getting the talent as well; the 5% buff to Bloodthirst is nowhere near enough compensation for the loss to Fury builds.

There are a variety of other minor quibbles, plus the itemization issues; I can't say I have much faith left in the Warrior class, as far as balance changes are concerned, even with excellent people in the Blizzard community speaking up for us, like Aedak.

[Hannibal777]

Perhaps I'm just being negative, but Blizzard has done nothing but hand out little bitty nerfs to Warriors since the "Warrior review" patch ages ago - every patch, we lose a little something.

We (and the poor Rogues, too) lost attack speed as a factor in choosing weapons for our instants due to weapon speed normalization for instants.

We lost 15% off our Enrage buff, due primarily to Mortal Strike Warriors being capable of getting the talent as well; the 5% buff to Bloodthirst is nowhere near enough compensation for the loss to Fury builds.

There are a variety of other minor quibbles, plus the itemization issues; I can't say I have much faith left in the Warrior class, as far as balance changes are concerned, even with excellent people in the Blizzard community speaking up for us, like Aedak.
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This is exactly what they should be doing. Do you play other classes much? Do you know how powerful the warrior class was or still is? Do you prefer to start off with a weak class and then given buffs every patch?

Do not judge a class by how many boosts or nerfs it has recieved every patch. Judge a class by comparing it with other classes. What is the effectiveness in relation to other classess.

You can argue some talents can be tweaked. May be protection spec can be given power in other areas of the game other than tanking. But you can't honestly tell me warrior is underpowered right now.

[Kevin]

This is exactly what they should be doing. Do you play other classes much? Do you know how powerful the warrior class was or still is? Do you prefer to start off with a weak class and then given buffs every patch?

Do not judge a class by how many boosts or nerfs it has recieved every patch. Judge a class by comparing it with other classes. What is the effectiveness in relation to other classess.

You can argue some talents can be tweaked. May be protection spec can be given power in other areas of the game other than tanking. But you can't honestly tell me warrior is underpowered right now.
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Yes I can. But I can't say that the warrior gear is underpowered. That is what the main worry of the warrior is. As the most gear dependent class in the game (followed closely by rogues) the warrior benefits the most from the poor itemization that Blizzard has done. Well poor for all the classes but the warrior.

The end game is warrior centric. You have to have them and you have to have good ones to raid. Druids can tank in MC and BWL, but you still can't fully replace a warrior on those fights with one (or 5 depending on how many you need, I can't see druids getting enough threat on Vael to allow enough DPS to kill him).

So yeah the instance design helps make warriors too powerful, as do items. Epic gear warriors can reach epic geared rogue levels of DPS. Blue/green warriors do not get to blue/green rogue DPS levels. This is because the talents of the rogue to more for DPS than the talents of the warrior and the gear of the warrior does more for damage than the gear of the rogue. Mainly though it is because there is more gear for the warriors than there is for the rogues. There are very few epic daggers and while the rogues can use the epic swords as well I think the highest DPS rogue build is still a dagger build. The armor for rogues doesn't really help much with DPS either, the T1 set being better than the T2 set for several pieces in that score and there not being as many other options for the rogue. DPS warriors don't wear might and wrath for pure DPS because they have great options in ZG and AQ and elsewhere for DPS armor too.