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I feel the earth Moo under my feet - Crystalion - 11-03-2003

In past versions of D2 I've often toyed with builds that could (not "easily" but possibly) do nightmare starting at clvl 1. Of course I've thought about this for v1.10--who wouldn't, when you can mule a clvl 1 to nightmare usefully and get the crazy idea to actually *do something* while you're there.

However not everyone is interested in processing clvl 1 characters to nightmare so this seems unlikely to be a mainstream pursuit.

That's why it greatly amused me to confirm reports for v1.10 ladder that clvl 1 characters can enter the red cow portal to the Moo Moo Farm. Now "anyone" can make a new character and ask "Where's the beef?"

With the 2% xp dilution cap for monsters way above your level I figure each hell bovine is probably still worth 16 xp. This would be close to what you score for killing a Fallen.

So, ala the "great race", the question is: at what low clvl with what build/equip/assist can one "successfully" do the cows?

This would be one of those nutso MongoJerryesque™(?) play-at-home things. :lol:

Unfortunately I've just spent a few hours rearranging all my muled items on Ladder, so I'm too tired to take up the challenge before getting some sleep.

p.s. in case you think you need to be roughly the level of the cows to kill them (~27) I'd have to say that I think several untwinked/unassisted clvl 12 builds should be able to take them. I'd not be surprised to hear of someone doing it sooner. A clvl 1 character with assistance could kill the cows almost trivially (multi-person corral/tenderize team). So an interesting question, to me, is what build/twinks (without assistance) might work for a very low (clvl 1..12) character to clear the farm.

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - gimlisam - 11-03-2003

I think that a party consisting of an assassin using wake of fire, an amazon with a bow with good elemental damage+high level multiple shot, a sorceress using fireball (esp. one who has an orb/staff that adds to that skill), and finally 2 paladins, one with thorns and one with prayer as well as 1 point into resist lightning. This party would not have to get all that close to the cows to deal damage to them (which is a good thing) and if they do, thorns will deal so much damage back to the cows that they (the cows) will be dead before they knew what hit them (again, a good thing). The prayer pally is to aid in immediately healing the party in case they do get swarmed, and the one point of resist lightning is for the Cow King. Out of curiosity, what mercenaries can this party have? If they can have any ones in the game, the breakdown would go as follows: 1 act 2 might mercenary (enhances the damage for the multiple arrow, as well as that of the act 5 mercenaries), 2 act 3 cold mercenaries (glacial spike is a beautiful thing), and 2 act 5 barbarian mercenaries (sometimes you just need the big, dumb tanks). There you go. I think that this party is ready for a trip to the cow level!

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - Guest - 11-03-2003

You were talking about normal moo moo farm, right? From what I remember in the beta, you could enter it even with a newly created character.

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - lemekim - 11-03-2003

Well, taking the challenge more generally, a heavily twinked clvl 1 character in Diablo 2 classic with pre-1.08 items (that still have no level requirements) would do the trick =) Probably a spellcaster, since any melee would have trouble hitting because of the AR/DR curve.

More specifically, a sorceress could easily get level 6 charged bolt with ample mana supply, 30% run from unique boots, and using some skill points and stat points acquired from completing quests, could get the stats and skills needed.

Outside of that, I really don't thing anyone could take at clvl 1 on cows in 1.10, mainly because of improved speed and damage. A lvl 1 character simply cannot outrun a cow to make any tactical manuevers, and have enough life not to go into hit recovery (or block) after a hit, which together pretty much make any such attempt futile.

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - Deadpan - 11-03-2003

Level 1 characters vs cows? I reckon only two are viable since the key must be to avoid getting hit. Both would use a ranged attack supplemented with charms and Envy jewels:

Barbarian: Howl
Druid: Ravens plus Poison Creeper

You wouldn't need any skillpoints since you could rely on headgear adders.

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - Crystalion - 11-04-2003

lemekim,Nov 3 2003, 04:05 PM Wrote:I really don't thing anyone could take at clvl 1 on cows in 1.10, mainly because of improved speed and damage.
Well, when you have crazy (highed skilled) people like MongoJerry running around and strange theoreticians like myself I think it is useful to come at this problem with a "can do" approach and then see it if you run into a brick wall, ala Yoda:
Quote:So certain are you... always with you it cannot be done!
Your objections are excellent. But if we come at this from a "how can X be overcome" and then (later) apply restrictions, we may surprise ourselves.

So, from your post, Problem 1: if (not "when") the cows hit a lowbie, bad stuff happens (hit recovery or death)

Example solutions thinking: "Even death can not save you from me!"; "I recover faster than you can possibly imagine"; "HaHa! Missed me!"; "Can't catch me!"

With the possible exception of Hardcore (I say "possible" deliberately, but won't digress here) dying might not be so bad, if one is still making progress (some of us got quite good at D1 corpse recovery where death might be a *necessary* part of the maneuvers).

I notice from Tommi's excellent hit recovery/blocking times webpage that some clvl 1 characters have pretty good timings and from d2data I see non-crits from the Hell Bovines coming in at 43 or less phys damage, which is certainly within the bounds of reason to be able to survive with a twinked clvl 1, so in some scenarios we might be interested in considering we should keep "getting hit" in mind (and not just dismiss it out of hand).

"Missed me!" can happen in a lot of ways. I fondly remember MongoJerry pointing out the zombie boss pack in the Den of Evil were easy for Irene/Aliza because he finessed their AI and attack speed timing. The cows have a fairly large melee range, but their swing frames are still fairly slow, full cycle at least. Their AR is not ultra godly compared to what we could twink for DR (and assisted one of the things we can do is nuke their AR, so shouldn't dismiss... blah, blah, blah) so the real issue is mlvl/clvl (which is not in our favor, of course).

Clearly, with assist, we could avoid having the cows ever get to us, so the question is: what clvl/skills/items for lowbies might accomplish the same thing? If we consider only clvls 1..6 then, iirc, Dim Vision, Howl and Taunt are obvious skills to examine. Frost Nova at clvl 6 might deserve a look. Burst of Speed at clvl 6 is an obvoius big one. Hsarus boots at clvl 3 is a huge twink.

The only thing I mentioned for unassisted/untwinked clvl 1 is Howl, and that might not work (clvl vs. mlvl might be a factor in its success). However, in the hands of a MongoJerry terrain-use-expert stamina potions might be sufficient for keep away (I don't know, not having tried it myself--yet).

If only one cow were approaching us, it is likely that other lowbie tricks are relevant (chill, cleglaws gloves) including such tricks as shift-attack smiting an approaching cow (auto-hit stun before he'd stop and attempt to swing). Having read many of his tales, I would not put it past a player like MongoJerry to be able to extract just one cow from a herd.

To recap, if we limit ourselves to considering clvl 1 (and this was not the intention of my post--I meant to include consideration of any very low clvl player builds/tactics) then we have...

1) actively assisted: Ha! no contest. The cows can be totally manipulated/controlled by the assister(s).

2) passively assisted: interesting case, as Enchant, Conviction, Vigor, and Battle Command are a few examples of "passive" assistance that can make a big difference (remember that I never said we had to limit ourselves to getting good xp from the cow kills, so Vigor, Meditation, etc. requiring being partied with an assistive Paly are not excluded prima facie)

3) twinked: there are some pretty good clvl 1 twinks for life/mana/thorns/weapon. The cows are so studly, however, that thorns is probably not a good option. :blink: A bunch of grand cold charms and massive ranged Envy setup is an obvious "solution", stumbling only over the to-hit & keep-away logistics. There are also rare/exotic items with charges of level 10 Firestorm or Teeth (usable by clvl 1 Druid/Necro respectively).

4) no assist, no twink: well it is technically possible to earn a Den of Evil skill point by yourself without leveling up first (I leave the details as an exercise for the reader) so we can assume a single clvl 1 req skill at slvl 3 (point invested plus 2 for the skill shrine--remember I'm asking what is *possible*, not what is necessarily easy or likely). You could also scavenge enough cash by cowardly tactics to buy +3 skill wands/scepters/staves from Akara (or have the patience, potentially, to get +3 skills from drop-only class items, but those might all have clvl 3 req at a minimum?). The cows regen is likely to be relevant (although once again MongoJerry surprised me in his adventures in this regard) so Poison Creeper is interesting (remember that I'm also willing to consider parties of lowbies confronting this challenge, so noting things like this are important, as one party member is potentially good at keeping a cow's regen off).

#4 is a pretty challenging case. Clearly, however, if you relax constraints to either clvl to 6 or twink just Hsarus boots to clvl 3s then #4 is dramatically transformed.

In other words I think all the "action" is from clvl 1 to 12, which is pretty much in line with "normal" clvls people have while in act 1. Perhaps the "standard" (for fun that is) quest to complete after Andariel with new characters (in a play group) should be to clear the cow level? B)

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - Obi2Kenobi - 11-04-2003

Methinks Corpse Explosion would be good... Only you would need to use some other way to get the first corpse... Strangling Gas potions, anyone? (separate one cow, kill it, lead a bunch of cows back to the cow corpse, toss in a throwing potion, cast CE, throw in another potion, and you should have a few dead cows)

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - Crystalion - 11-04-2003

Obi1.10Kenobi,Nov 4 2003, 01:29 AM Wrote:Methinks Corpse Explosion would be good...
I've been meaning to test this in v1.10 release completely apart from the issue of lowbie cow runs because in v1.10s my clvl 6 necro in Frigid Highlands was *not* getting CE damage off on the monsters there from corpses helpfully supplied by a confederate.

Will edit back when I get around to it...
Edit: In my test 4 CEs from a clvl 6 Necro managed to take a hell Bovine down to no HPs showing and the 5th killed it. I notice the cows have a large HP range and CE a small explosion radius, so perhaps 60-100% damage stated is correct (as is d2data saying no resist phys/fire for norm cows) although the numbers seem at the limit of possibility (if I had more time I'd repeat the test).

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - Obi2Kenobi - 11-04-2003

But what if you kill the cow yourself? (with potions, and patience)

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - Crystalion - 11-04-2003

Obi1.10Kenobi,Nov 4 2003, 02:43 AM Wrote:But what if you kill the cow yourself? (with potions, and patience)
Strangling gas potions are clvl 6 req at which point an Amazon with Poison Javelin would be more effective.

Fulminating potions (clvl 1 req) are only 5-15 damage and thus will not put a cow into hit recovery and probably isn't, therefore, practical to chain cast to overcome the cow regen.

Clearly, if you were very patient and could keep away from the cows, a clvl 6 barb could conveniently have a fulminating in one hand and strangling in the other, keeping the cow poisoned to stop regen and casting fire pots for damage (it would probably take a full stack of fulminating potions to kill a cow). Alternately, using just Strangling gas potions it would take quite some time at 6 poison damage/second (4 seconds per pot, iirc) to kill a cow with 159-342 life (from d2data normal, players 1).

Still this doesn't seem to be any more "patient" than some of MongoJerry's sisyphean exploits. :blink:

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - whyBish - 11-04-2003

Deadpan,Nov 4 2003, 05:08 AM Wrote:Barbarian: Howl
Druid: Ravens plus Poison Creeper
In softcore, thorns + patience will kill anything (or at least it used to, how bad is regen in players 1 normal?)

As to howl, doesn't that hit the CLVL+SLVL<MLVL problem? ... Even with ravens youd have to get lucky to get them blinded (if possible? What mlvl are cows?))

I think a 2 player team would be be easiest, as early as level 6 (thorns) for a paly, and a necro so that someone else is getting hit. Note that survivability is probably better in a sense for low level chars as opposed to higher level chars since the blocking formula is based on CLVL not MLVL (is that still correct?)

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - Deadpan - 11-04-2003

By coincidence, my latest baby druid came across a +1 Poison Creeper, +3 Ravens pelt last night. With no other skills and 3 chipped topazes in a short bow nothing in Act 1 was getting close to him. The trick is to spam the creeper so that unblinded monsters always have an alternative target. This is hardcore so I haven't tried him on cows yet.

The other trick is to sneak a ride into Act 2 and pick up an Act 2 merc: I hired a Prayer one at level 6 long before killing Blood Raven. Gave him an ethereal superior bardiche. I worry about whether I'll lose him now that Kashya wants to talk to me.

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - Crystalion - 11-04-2003

Deadpan,Nov 4 2003, 09:13 AM Wrote:The other trick is to sneak a ride into Act 2 and pick up an Act 2 merc: I hired a Prayer one at level 6 long before killing Blood Raven. Gave him an ethereal superior bardiche. I worry about whether I'll lose him now that Kashya wants to talk to me.
No, the freebie gift mercs don't "overwrite" your current merc, even if your current merc is dead. In other words, once you've hired a merc (from any act) you can no longer get the freebies. Humorously I got a free Iron Wolf gifted to me on v1.10 Ladder the other day because my character did the Gidbinn quest without ever having a merc in act 1 or 2.

Act 3 Lightning mercs rock for clvls 1..5. I then switched to an act 2 merc and was surprised at how studly he was for his level (the rare trident helped, I'm sure B) ).

It seems I'm not the only one finding act 3 cold mercs to be quite helpful again (as they were pre-LoD)--at least until you can hire a nm act 2 merc.

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - dkass - 11-04-2003

Crystalion,Nov 3 2003, 06:08 PM Wrote:3) twinked: there are some pretty good clvl 1 twinks for life/mana/thorns/weapon. The cows are so studly, however, that thorns is probably not a good option. :blink:&nbsp; A bunch of grand cold charms and massive ranged Envy setup is an obvious "solution", stumbling only over the to-hit & keep-away logistics. There are also rare/exotic items with charges of level 10 Firestorm or Teeth (usable by clvl 1 Druid/Necro respectively).

4) no assist, no twink: well it is technically possible to earn a Den of Evil skill point by yourself without leveling up first (I leave the details as an exercise for the reader) so we can assume a single clvl 1 req skill at slvl 3 (point invested plus 2 for the skill shrine--remember I'm asking what is *possible*, not what is necessarily easy or likely). You could also scavenge enough cash by cowardly tactics to buy +3 skill wands/scepters/staves from Akara (or have the patience, potentially, to get +3 skills from drop-only class items, but those might all have clvl 3 req at a minimum?). The cows regen is likely to be relevant (although once again MongoJerry surprised me in his adventures in this regard) so Poison Creeper is interesting (remember that I'm also willing to consider parties of lowbies confronting this challenge, so noting things like this are important, as one party member is potentially good at keeping a cow's regen off).

#4 is a pretty challenging case. Clearly, however, if you relax constraints to either clvl to 6 or twink just Hsarus boots to clvl 3s then #4 is dramatically transformed.
Given the way you've phrased #4, isn't it almost the same as #3? I think a level 1 character can find any twink gear they can use just running around opening chests and the like (don't forget gem shrines) [err, just thought of quest items, inc the viper amulet and flail as twink, or did Blizzard finally close that sleeze?]. Anything up through the Stony Fields is accessible and "safe." The Crypt and Mausoleum might be good places for softcore (get in, loot and don't worry about getting cornered). I suspect that even up through the Tamoe Highlands could be accessed (apart from Tristam, ? or can one get the scroll by just touching the tree, I don't recall). This may take many games to find what is needed, but it will be eventually found.

I suppose the difference is that the #4 case can't get out of act 1, so no merc or other quest rewards (life and stats in act 3, skills from Radiment and Izzy, resistance although not really needed).

Is fire arrow the auto-hit arrow skill? (its been too long since I seriously played a bowzon). If so for #4, I'd suggest getting it with the DoE point and then finding some socketable gear and loading up on the poison jewels and chipped emeralds, plus some no level cold charms (or use a chipped saphire in the bow) +2 strength gives access to the long bow (+3 dex gives the Hunter's Bow). I'd have to experiment to find out how much poison is needed. If 3 emeralds in a long bow are enough, it might only take a couple of hours to get the gear together (just re-roll the blood moor after a quick check through for gem shrines)--the bow is probably the hardest part here (I don't think Gheed will sell them yet...)

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - Brista - 11-04-2003

In softcore Thorns should work

Put all your points in vitality, put your items in the stash box, drop all your gold in town and just keep running back in untill they all drop dead :)

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - lemekim - 11-05-2003

Well, since your number 4 implies infinite patience (which I know some people do have =) then it is possible to perform this feat at level 1. Taking "patience" to absurd limits, we can search forever for the following items: wand with +3 skeleton/skeleton mastery/teeth, necromancer's shield with +3 skeleton/skeleton mastery/teeth. We would also probably need 4 chipped saphires to put into armor/helm, and 10 +7 mana grand charms with 10 +stamina small charms. Of course, we cannot forget a full belt of mana potions; hopefully at least light mana potions.

This should provide a decent mana supply, in the range of 150+, and lvl 8 skeleton and lvl 8 skeleton mastery with skill shrine, with level 8 teeth. The single point will go into amplify damage, giving level 3 amplify damage. This would give you 4 skeletons with 150 life and ~20 damage each before Amplify damage. With skeletons doing some tanking, and you pounding the cows with teeth and casting occasional Amp to help your skeletons, there is quite a possibility of this working. Sure, the skeletons won't last long against the onslaught of cows, but they only need to tank long enough to make some corpses from which new skeletons can be raised. AFAIK, the skill shrines regenerate, thus if you note the location of several of them, you can essentially have almost unlimited +2 skills.

Of course, we are being a "little" unrealistic here, but now it gives a little more thinking room. allowing for things that one would avoid otherwise =)

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - Obi2Kenobi - 11-05-2003

Quote:Strangling gas potions are clvl 6 req at which point an Amazon with Poison Javelin would be more effective.
But the point of the potion was just to get the first corpse for CE... lets see a zon pull that one off! :P (since CE also has a clvl req. of 6)

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - Occhidiangela - 11-05-2003

Cows are more fun now that they are faster in NM. I took a non-ladder soft core assassin, Shadow Skills with Blade Fury added as an afterthought, into a NM game at level 27. She entered the portal no probs, although she has never been passed Duriel in NM.

There were 8 of us, many folks died many times, I survived the whole battle. Talent available ranged from me, a couple of level 9's and some folks 40+ to 70+.

Mind Blast and Psychic Hammer and my shadow warrior, not to mention my Blade Fury with a bit of poison in three sockets on my claws, was all I had, so I was hardly ruling the cows. I kept the cows off of the Sorceresses and MS zons with Psychic Hammer, but with big swarms, used Mind Blast to slow the rush enough for them to get off a few attacks. One of the sorcs simply never stopped using Orb. Go figure. :D

That was sorta fun. No one seemed to have any overpowered stuff on them, or I just did not notice any. It took a while to clear the whole level, and I almost always saw a pink cross somewhere until we were about half way to done.

I had fun not dying, since I really was in over my head from a level perspective.

That about does cows for me for the next quarter . . .

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - Occhidiangela - 11-05-2003

For a team of first levels.

Bunches of mana and blue ports will be needed. And some cash.

1. Assasssin. One point. Psychic Hammer.
2. Amazon. Two socketed hat, two socketed armor, three socketed Short bow, 7 jewels of envy. One skill point: Inner Sight or cold arrow?
3. Necromancer. Skeleton want and shrunken head thingie, gives us + 7 skeletons and =6 to skelly mastery. Point to skeleton.
4. Druid with +3 Ravens hat, and possibly a + other skill hat like fire storm just for grins. His one point into Ravens. Poison Creeper has nothing on the seven envy jewels, other than auto hit.

Prime Killer is Poison from Amazon. Assassin keeps things backed up. As I discovered last night, if you back one cow up in a constricted place, you stop the whole heard. Skeletons to give the cows something to go after besides you.

I think it could be done. :)

But eeeeeep, it might take a while.

PS: how to get that one point? It takes some cheese . . .

OK, start a game, run over to Akara, get assigned the quest, exit before a minute is up and come back into game with a different character. Run to den, kill all but a Fallen, then leave. Make sure 5 minutes has passed. Bring back in single character and go kill that last fallen.

Visit Akara for your point, then go out to the Blood Moor and kill all of the rest by herding them over to Flavie and making that nasty wench kill them with her bow.

Yes, as to that last, I did that an age ago while waiting in a private game while waiting for a friend who never showed up. Had I not had Howl, I could not have urged the Quill Rats over into her field of fire as easily.

I feel the earth Moo under my feet - ZatarRufus - 11-05-2003

Occhidiangela,Nov 5 2003, 04:03 PM Wrote:For a team of first levels.
Would it be within the theme to nearly fill each character's experience bar so a level-up to 2 would occur during the first few cow slayings (and hence grant five more attribute points as well as the additional skill point)?

Edit: Clarification