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+--- Thread: caution - controversial! (/thread-8786.html)
caution - controversial! - Fragbait - 04-29-2004
Hail fellow lurkers,
I know that this is a quite controversial topic, and some of you will not hesitate to call me a troll,
but with 1.10 some things have changed. Buriza vs. Windforce has always been a tough decision, but since one of my friends recently upgraded his Buriza and socketed it with a 40% ed jewel, this question has aroused my interest. What would you say? Feel free to leave your 2 cents. Which is the best combination? An upgraded Hel-Buriza perhaps? A Shael-Windforce?
Of course this depends on what skills you use. My friend has a lvl 86 strafe / immolation arrow ama, and mine is lvl 85 and using strafe / freezing arrow.
If you think that is bullsh**, and your bow / crossbow is way better, just post it.
Seriously, not trying to troll here, I'm really interested.
Looking forward to the answers.
Greetings, Fragbait
caution - controversial! - loked - 04-29-2004
how did your friend upgrade buriza, i thought it was imposible to upgrade that item... or am i worg?
caution - controversial! - Raziel - 04-29-2004
You can thank GFrazier for that stunning peice of bs. The Buriza can be upgraded just like everything else.
caution - controversial! - gekko - 04-29-2004
Actually, people have done the calculations, and the upgrade on the buriza doesn't make the weapon as bad as originally feared. While I don't have the numbers handy, as I've never bothered with buriza, the strength required to wield an upgraded buriza takes more than a few points away from your dexterity. If you're only pumping strength to use the upgraded buriza, that results in an almost negligable difference between a lower strength, exeptional buriza and a higher strength, elite version.
As for the poster's actual question, the answer is, of course, neither :P . Neither one is fast enough for a respectable bowazon to use.
That advice is somewhat personal opinion, of course. In reality, most would say buriza is too slow to be an effective strafe weapon. On the other hand, an amazon concentrating on guided, freezing, and particularly immolation arrow would likely find the crossbow more than sufficient.
gekko
caution - controversial! - arrunique - 04-29-2004
Quote: the strength required to wield an upgraded buriza takes more than a few points away from your dexterityWhat my zon did was wear Andy's Visage and Tgods. The total was 50 extra strength on top of a 110 base investment to wear Tgods. That is almost enough strength to wield it. I never did this but Lionheart armor seems to be good for a 1.10 burizon and that also gives 20 strength.
What other armor would be good for a Burizon who doesn't need IAS?
My problem with the Buriza strafer was you need to have all the monsters together. Having to strafe multiple directions really divides your power.
caution - controversial! - Samka - 04-29-2004
Not really that controversial.
Buriza, being a crossbow, is fundamentally slower than Windforce. But if you're strafing, then there's that 'nextdelay' thing which means you don't benefit much from more than 5 frame strafe (or is it 4?). I'm not sure if the Buriza can reach 4 or 5 frame strafe though.
Knockback is generally better than freeze though. Hmm..
caution - controversial! - adeyke - 04-30-2004
The NextDelay thing is actually a point in WF's favour.
Buriza has a natural speed of 14/4. This is the worst possible speed for the NextDelay. If you shoot a full 10 arrow strafe at a single target, only 5 of them will hit. The strafe takes 50 frames, so it's an average of 10 frames per arrow.
OTOH, WF has a natural speed of 13/3. You'd still give only 5 hits, but it'd only take 40 frames, so it's an average of 8 frames per arrow.
If you want to avoid NextDelay issues against a single monster, your strafe must be 5 frames or slower. Then all 10 arrows hit. However, if you can't get the 5 frames, a higher speed is always better.
caution - controversial! - gekko - 04-30-2004
I won't repeat what adeyke said, but would like to add one more thing (obvious, but worth pointing out): the next delay bug is only really an issue versus single monsters. The vast majority of the time, you will be fighting at least 2 enemies at once, meaning you will rarely notice the bug in practice. Against single enemies, well, adeyke already showed you the math.
gekko
caution - controversial! - Fragbait - 05-01-2004
Hi!
What would be the wisest choice to socket into the windforce of my lvl 85 Amazon?
What I'm able to come up with is:
- 40% enhanced damage jewel
- 15% ias / resistance jewel
- shael rune
- hel rune
- ist rune
She's lvl 85, as I said before, and what I can remember of her stats is:
life: ~925
mana: ~300
ac: ~1200
damage(strafe): ~300-1850
damage(freezing arrow) ~275-1600, ~300 cold damage
ar(strafe): 2500
ar(freezing arrow): 5600 (these two are rather bad, that's where my blessed aim mercenary comes into play)
resist fire: 61
resist cold: 75
resist lightning: 75
resist poison: 75
+4 to all amazon skills, +6 to bow and crossbow skills (+2 on the gloves, but unfortunately no ias on them)
~16% life leech, ~12% mana leech
40% faster run
unfortunately NO cbf on any of her items...
skills are:
strafe: lvl 26
guided arrow: lvl 26
freezing arrow: lvl 18 (or 19 or 20, can't remember, was meant to be maxed next)
immolation arrow: lvl 16 (yes it is a dual tree bowama... pre-1.10)
valkyrie: lvl 14
pierce: lvl 14
all other magic skills: lvl 5, I think
all other bow skills: lvl 7, I think
She's wearing mainly rares, except of the windforce and her valkyrie wing. Yes, and a Nef-Lum armor with around 550 defense.
The charms that she's carrying are mainly crap, she was played mostly before LOD.
She has done hell act 5, but in 1.10, she is no easy-killer anymore. It's mainly the damage that is too low, I think,comparing her to my lvl 89 pala that does around 2750 average damage with zeal, and about 4000 average damage with vengeance.
What should I do?
On the weapon switch, there's a rather bad buriza with 163% ed, not upgraded. The crossbow does less damage, but comes into play when i encounter physical immunes, because of the rather massive cold damage.
Any suggestions? How much ias do I need to reach the next breakpoints with normal attack / strafe with my windy?
Thanks.
Greetings, Fragbait
EDIT: forgot to mention her skills.
caution - controversial! - gekko - 05-02-2004
I'll answer your last question first, since it's the one that will usually be the deciding factor of the what to socket question.
How much ias do I need to reach the next breakpoints with normal attack / strafe with my windy?
Use this calculator: http://diablo2.ingame.de/tips/calcs/weapon...hp?lang=english for all your weapon speed questions.
For a hydra bow (10 base speed) using standard attack (including freezing arrow, first strafe arrow, magic arrow, etc)...
IAS FPA attacks/second
0 % 15 1.6
5 % 14 1.7
11 % 13 1.9
22 % 12 2
35 % 11 2.2
56 % 10 2.5
89 % 9 2.7
147 % 8 3.1
292 % 7 3.5
Using strafe:
0 % 4 6.2
11 % 3 8.3
120 % 2 12.5
You didn't mention any IAS on equipment, meaning you'll need a serious equipment overhaul if you want to up your speed considerably. However, the easiest breakpoints to hit are 11% (3 frame strafe, almost absolutely worth it) and 35% (11 frame standard). 11% is easy with say a IAS/resist jewel. 35% would take say a shael and a IAS jewel in the helm. More than that will probably require a fair change from +skills to IAS.
Bowazon is no longer to uber-damage character she was in 1.09, even with the bestest equipment (although they are still extremely powerful and versatile). With a decent valk and merc, however, and tactics enough to keep the enemy far, far away (the KB on windforce helps here), you should be quite safe.
As you probably are already aware, the points in immolation arrow could've been better spent elsewhere. Tri-elemental (physical, fire, cold) all in the bow tree is not an easy or particularly powerful path to take in 1.10.
In the end, unless you have some IAS you didn't mention, it's probably worth going for at least 35% IAS for an 11/3 strafe. While not fast, you should see a noticable improvement in your speed. If a shael won't make it any easier to reach a breakpoint, the 40% ED jewel would be a good choice. My personal bias is towards speed, however, and I feel it's rarely a bad decision to throw a shael in a bow.
gekko
caution - controversial! - Fragbait - 05-02-2004
Hi gekko,
One quick question:
I know that weapon ias and overall ias are somewhat different. But Windforce already has 20% ias on it, so I thought:
Wouldn't it be enough to socket a shael, to get 40% ias and by that reach the 35% breakpoint?
And if that is true, wouldn't it be a wiser choice to socket a 15% ias, fire resistance jewel? That would meet the 35% breakpoint also, but I would have 75% fire resistance. If I socket the shael into the Windy, will it be counted as weapon ias? Shall I rather have Larzuk make a socket in any other equipment and insert a jewel?
If that doesn't work, I might be able to get my hands on the 'laying of hands' of my lvl 85 lightning fury zon.
I know that laying of hands is quite good, but I don't want to end up playing only in 'demon' areas. Moreover, my rare gloves give me ~20% magic find, ~20%resist cold, ~20%resist lightning, ~+5 dexterity, and +2 to bow and crossbow skills. Except the ias, I consider them very good, since my leech is sufficient. Shall I get laying nevertheless, regardless of what I socket?
Well, those have been a few questions. But they were quick! :D
Greetings, Fragbait
caution - controversial! - adeyke - 05-02-2004
For most skills (including normal attack and all amazon bow skills), there's no difference between IAS on the weapon and IAS on other equipment. So the 20% on WF and the 20% on the Shael (both of these are weapon IAS) and the 20% on gloves would all work the same way and they'd just stack to 60%.
caution - controversial! - gekko - 05-02-2004
Correct. Sorry, I forgot about the inherent 20% IAS on the windforce. Adjust my advice accordingly :).
gekko
caution - controversial! - Fragbait - 05-03-2004
Hi adeyke,
Thanks for the information. I gave her the Lava Gout gloves that my paladin used some time ago, I'll see if the speed gain works for me. Solves her fire resistance, too, but now her skills will go down as well as magic find and poison resist. Got to try it out, I think.
Resumee: When I already got 40 % ias, there's little sense to socket a shael in the Windforce. I'm probably gonna socket my 40% ed jewel then. Maybe I'll wait sometime, perhaps anyone has some piece of info that will alter my opinion once more.
Thanks.
Greetings, Fragbait
caution - controversial! - Caaroid - 05-03-2004
Hello
Keeping with the spirit of the thing, I'd like to ask you, who might have any experience with both skills in this game that we're playing now, which one is "better"?
Been part of this debate forever; used multi when everyone used strafe, then made a strafezon when multi was king... How do we do now?
I'm asking since I have a strafezon, using goldstrike, and she is not much of a killer at level 66 in NM, even though I got the 2 frame strafe.
thanks
caution - controversial! - adeyke - 05-03-2004
There were several changes to strafe and multi-shot for 1.10:
Strafe was given a minimum number of arrows (2 + slvl / 4), meaning you can get a lot of arrows even against a small group of monsters. However, friendly minions no longer give you extra arrow.
Multi-shot was severely beaten by the nerf stick. Only the center two arrows carry certain effects. The other arrows don't. The affected effects include CTC on striking, OW, CB, hit blinds target, hit freezes target, hit causes monster to flee, and maybe knockback. Deadly/critical strike, PMH and RIP apply to all arrows. The number of multi-shot arrows was also capped at 24.
So from a purely objective perspective, the balance was tilted in strafe's favour, compared to 1.09.
caution - controversial! - Samka - 05-03-2004
Goldenstrike blows, due to the casting delay on FoH. Notice how your nice 2 frame strafe stops every couple of seconds or so to cast?