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Some thoughts on the early rogue - --Pete - 06-09-2004
Hi,
Well, in my typical fashion, I've started yet another character before bringing any of the others to a reasonable level. The idea behind Ogier (male dwarf rogue) was to see if I could solve some problems that my other characters have playing solo. So, let's start with the problems:
As far as I can tell, there are three items that differentiate critters (I've decided to go with this term rather than "mobs" because it seems fewer people know what a "mob" is and a group of adversaries would be a "mob of mobs" which is confusing :) ).
The first differentiator is the ability to use a ranged attack (all critters seem to have a melee attack as well). The second is their ability to communicate (social creatures communicate, beasts do not -- although they often do make noise). The third is whether they are aggressive or passive. As far as I've been able to tell, these are the only distinguishing characteristics other than the usual hit points, damage, etc. With those three differentiators, there are eight types of critters.
The passive critters are the easiest of all. You simply pick one out, making sure that no aggressive critters are in aggro range, and whale on it. Melee or ranged has no real effect here because they will not attack until attacked, allowing you to get right up to them. The social ones will run away when they've taken a certain amount of damage, but since their "friends" are passive, you can pretty well follow them to finish them off. The only danger here is if you let them lead you into the aggro range of aggressive critters.
The next easiest critters are the aggressive melee beasts. The only problem is if they are in a group, then it becomes necessary to pull one. Without a ranged weapon, this can be a bit tricky to do without getting more attention than you bargained for. However, picking one critter out and slowly advancing until you hit its aggro range works pretty well. It is a good idea to have a spot picked out for a "fighting retreat". That way, if some of the critters group move around, there's less chance that they'll stumble into the fight.
One of the reasons I picked a rogue was that they start off with ranged capability. For the aggressive melee beasts, it is simple enough to pick the killing zone, then use a thrown knife to get the critter to come to you. The objective isn't so much to do damage as to get their attention, but if the distance is judged rightly it is possible to get a second knife off before the melee starts. At first I found myself watching the thrown knife and throwing another when the first hit. This often resulted in the critter getting a hit on Ogier as he was finishing the throw. By watching the throw bar and hitting the hot key immediately when the throw is finished, Ogier is ready for a melee attack just as the critter gets to him. So far, I've only had him buy light throwing knives. I might go for something that does more damage later.
The aggressive ranged beasts can be handled much like the melee ones. By clearing a small retreat area, a killing zone can be established for a while (the respawn needs to be looked for if many critters need to be killed). The killing zone is where the critter is to be pulled. The technique is pretty simple. A single knife is thrown (a miss seems to work as well as a hit for drawing aggro). As soon as the knife is thrown, turn and run into the safe zone sufficiently past the killing zone so that the ranged critter will stop in the killing zone. Then spin around and run back, engaging the critter in melee.
Of course, for solo creatures (ranged or melee) none of this is necessary. But tightly packed groups seem to be common if not the norm.
The aggressive social creatures are by far the most difficult to solo. They are almost invariably in a group, and they will often "spread" the aggro. Trying to pull one will often get his two buddies as well. Even if you succeeded in pulling just one, when he is sufficiently hurt, he will run away, often back to his buddies and come back with reinforcements. Sometimes this works to your advantage, in that you can kill the first easily when he returns and then go to work on the second. By grabbing a quick "snack" between when the first runs and he and his buddy returns, I've gotten as many as five or six critters. But that's under ideal conditions. And ranged attackers usually do not come back into melee range.
What seems to work pretty well is to treat the social creatures much like the beasts as far as pulling is concerned. Some careful scouting to pick off the ones on the periphery first makes life a lot easier. Then, with Ogier, I simply use sinister strike to build up combo points. When the critter is low on hit points, but not so low as to run away, I use Eviscerate to do a lot of damage fast. That way, the social critters *usually* don't get to go tell their friends about us. However, in the cases they do survive Eviscerate, it is always a question of following them for the killing blow or just waiting. Sometimes I've managed to kill then with a few thrown knives, but that often leaves the problem of looting them.
So, overall, the throw capability and the "finishing move" go a long way towards solving the big solo problems of pulling a single critter and keeping social critters from going back for reinforcements.
Stealth is useful in setting up killing zones, in getting withing throwing range, and especially in eating (if you stealth and then eat, the stealth goes away. If you eat first, then you can go stealthy and enjoy your meal in peace :) ). One thing I did a lot early on was to travel parallel to the road, attacking everything within two levels. When Ogier had taken too much damage, I'd simply put him in stealth and keep moving to where he was going till his health got up to where he could take a few more fights.
So far, backstab has been pretty much a failure. Most aggressive critters will not let you get close enough to them (stealthed, of course) to use it. The passive critters I could use it on were hardly worth the effort. That may change at higher levels.
Ogier is not using any trade skills, has all stats maxed, and used 30 skill points for dual wield. I don't know if this is a good way to go or not, but the image seems to work for a rogue. From a few things I've read and from the fact that his skill level is 1/1000 and not changing, I suspect that dual wield is broken right now.
So far, I've explored all of Dun Morogh including two areas that are "unpopulated" (one of which has what looks to be a cool airport) and some of Loch Modan (mostly the western edge). I've had to put off one quest because I couldn't solo it at level 10 (Protecting the Herd). Playing pretty slowly, I was able to get Ogier to level 7.5 in about four hours when the "rest state" kicked in. I've played him two more sessions, each about four hours, and each till the rest state changed.
Well, that's all that comes to mind *before* hitting the "post" button :)
More later.
--Pete
Some thoughts on the early rogue - DeeBye - 06-09-2004
Nice report. I haven't played a Rogue beyond level 7 or so, but I have been meaning to spend more time with one.
Quote:A single knife is thrown (a miss seems to work as well as a hit for drawing aggro).The same thing applies to spells as well. A "resisted" spell will draw aggro just as well as an unresisted spell.
Quote:So far, I've explored all of Dun Morogh including two areas that are "unpopulated" (one of which has what looks to be a cool airport)
Is that the area on the eastern edge that's right above a lake? I know that there is an area there that is currently unreachable by normal means, but I've been itching to mountain climb over there to have a looksie.
Speaking of Dun Morogh, I really think that it's the nicest-looking newbie zone in WoW. I might be biased due to me being Canadian, but I love looking at the snow-covered hills and frozen lakes. I am sincerely contemplating suggesting a "/tobaggan" command just for Dun Morogh so that I can sled down some of those snow-covered slopes.
editted because I am stupid and can't figure out how to use tags
Some thoughts on the early rogue - FoxBat - 06-09-2004
Pete,Jun 8 2004, 09:40 PM Wrote:So far, backstab has been pretty much a failure. Most aggressive critters will not let you get close enough to them (stealthed, of course) to use it.I think stealth is intentionally built to fail when you get close.
To use backstab, you either need someone else to melee, or you need to use the gouge skill to stun them. With a little practice, you can gouge a monster from the front, circle around to it's back, and pull off a backstab.
Some thoughts on the early rogue - --Pete - 06-09-2004
Hi,
Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a shot when all the parts are in place.
Looks like tomorrow morning the servers are getting their oil changed :) . Maybe I'll get a chance to try it in the afternoon.
--Pete
Some thoughts on the early rogue - --Pete - 06-09-2004
Hi,
Is that the area on the eastern edge that's right above a lake? I know that there is an area there that is currently unreachable by normal means, but I've been itching to mountain climb over there to have a looksie.
Yep, northeast corner of Dun Morogh. No need to get all fancy with the climbing, there's a fairly low pass just north of the ram farm. I found it by accident looking for the boss of the quest I've still to do there. When you get to the area, you'll find a few buildings that are unfinished and entering into them can get you stuck, so be warned if you do explore.
As to Dun Morogh being the nicest looking newbie zone, I'm going to have to agree. That first region seems to be both bigger and more interesting than any of the others I've seen, and Ironforge is one impressive spot. Indeed, some of the views from the peaks are amazing.
I only hope that the quality of the game comes close to matching the quality of the graphics. If that happens, I might never play another game :)
--Pete
Some thoughts on the early rogue - Nystul - 06-09-2004
I think stealth is intentionally built to fail when you get close.
Kind of. You can get close enough to attack though, and you can get even closer from behind. It is worthwhile to practice this when playing a new rogue, because it is a significant advantage when soloing to be able to get the first attack from stealth mode (only backstab at first, but later garrote, ambush, sap, etc.). Approaching mobs in stealth mode involves some subtle things that will improve with practice, but your character's stealth skill level is something that also needs to be kept at its maximum level.
Plus, once you have that down, you can pickpocket the humanoids and get such treasures as Empty Wallet, Salt Lick, and occasionally even a healing potion.
Some thoughts on the early rogue - Tal - 06-09-2004
If you need assistance on the Alliance side I've got a level 20 paladin named Sharanna. :)
Some thoughts on the early rogue - --Pete - 06-09-2004
Hi,
Thanks for the offer. I might take you up on it when I get closer to 20 myself.
--Pete
Some thoughts on the early rogue - Assur - 06-15-2004
Pete,Jun 9 2004, 02:40 AM Wrote:Ogier (male dwarf rogue)Hi
So far, backstab has been pretty much a failure. Most aggressive critters will not let you get close enough to them (stealthed, of course) to use it. The passive critters I could use it on were hardly worth the effort. That may change at higher levels.
I'm just trying to envision Ogier backstabbing a Tauren :rolleyes: Does he have a ladder in his backpack?
Some thoughts on the early rogue - --Pete - 06-15-2004
Hi,
I'm just trying to envision Ogier backstabbing a Tauren :rolleyes: Does he have a ladder in his backpack?
No, he just jumps up and cuts their Achilles' tendon. The fall then kills them :)
--Pete
Some thoughts on the early rogue - Assur - 06-15-2004
Pete,Jun 15 2004, 04:39 PM Wrote:No, he just jumps up and cuts their Achilles' tendon. The fall then kills them :)Hi
Let's just hope they don't fall backwards :)
good karma