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+--- Thread: Too good to miss (/thread-8411.html)
Too good to miss - --Pete - 06-17-2004
Hi,
On the trade skills forum, check out Karmic's reply. in this thread. Got me laughing. :)
--Pete
Too good to miss - MongoJerry - 06-17-2004
That was awesome. Thanks for the link!
Too good to miss - TheDragoon - 06-17-2004
Yeah, that was pretty good. :)
Too good to miss - Saxywoo - 06-18-2004
That was rather good. I had a laugh...Thank you.
Another thing though. You're right in pointing out that guns being in the game make swords obsolete. Perhaps the WoW world is based off of a time period that is like Japan was, just before it's modernization "at break-neck speed."
But already by that time, you had dynamite, which would make easier what I call "Soprano Quests" (you know, when they pay you to "go and whack these guys"), especially if they live in a cave.
Which, taking it further, could lead one to believe that the Taurens used roadside improvised explosive devices to take out that Venture Mining Co.'s caravan.
-SaxyCorp
Too good to miss - Guest - 06-18-2004
While all his individual facts may be correct he uses them to paint an inaccurrate picture.
The Greeks did use iron weapons and bronze armor at the same time.
They probably also used bronze weapons concurrently with iron weapons for a least a time.
Too good to miss - --Pete - 06-18-2004
Hi,
The Greeks did use iron weapons and bronze armor at the same time.
Yes. It is good for armor to give a little so that some of the energy of the blow goes into cutting and deforming the armor. As long as it doesn't cut all the way through. That is basically how Kevlar works.
They probably also used bronze weapons concurrently with iron weapons for a least a time.
Maybe for a very short time. Would work OK for arrow heads and spear points, both of which mostly stayed flint well into the bronze age. Would not work too well with swords, since a bronze sword meeting an iron sword edge on becomes a very short bronze dagger very fast. However, since bronze (much less copper) was a poor material for swords, that probably wasn't much of an issue.
As an aside, the Iliad and Odyssey are full of references to spears and have few references to swords. The Trojan wars mostly took place in the bronze age, and various types of spears (light throwing spears, long "footman" spears and short stabbing spears -- each of which has it's own name in both Greek and Latin, but I can't remember any of them except "pilum" :) ) were the weapons of choice. Until the strength to weight ratio went way up with improved iron (and the random batch of steel) swords weren't really practical.
--Pete
Too good to miss - Guest - 06-18-2004
I know the basic metalurgy details.
But this statment is not accurrate.
"Yes. It is good for armor to give a little so that some of the energy of the blow goes into cutting and deforming the armor. As long as it doesn't cut all the way through. That is basically how Kevlar works."
The reason iron wasnt used as armor is mainly that it was rare commodity and not all that easy to work into large or thin forms.
People almost never chose a metal like bronze over iron for its absorbtion, this is evidensed by the universal acceptence of iron steel armor when capable smiths, material and, or methods became available.
Too good to miss - dkass - 06-19-2004
Actually, guns and swords historically existed side by side for quite a while. The sword did not fall out of real use in combat until the mid 18th century (or even somewhat later, especially for "solo" type action), wheras guns were introduced in the 14th century. Until you get fast loading (or multishot) accurate guns (both rifles and pistols), the sword has its place (as do halberds, spears and the like, to a lesser extent). Loading a pistol just wasn't possible in close combat (and they were single shot and not all that accurate or lethal) so a sword (or cutlass or the like) was the preferred weapon after everyone had discharged their guns. The sword also had the advantage of working even when wet as well as providing defensive abilities (in the parry and skewer).
Guns did make armor obsolete (I hope guns in WoW completely ignore all armor).
The original poster was incorrect to put cast iron at the bottom of the tree. It is the worst type of iron for weapons and such, but it requires much more advanced technology than many of the other forms (since it requires temperatures sufficient to melt the iron, not just make it malleable). At least according to my (limited) metallurgical understanding.
Too good to miss - --Pete - 06-19-2004
Hi,
Actually, guns and swords historically existed side by side for quite a while.
Yes, they did. But I refer you to my original post in that thread: "You see, there are *guns* in the game. Pretty darn modern guns, too. And by the time such guns got into the world, all armor, most swords, etc. had become obsolete."
As to the ". . . cast iron . . . requires much more advanced technology than many of the other forms (since it requires temperatures sufficient to melt the iron, not just make it malleable). ", you are completely right. The technology to make cast iron is one small step away from making modern (controlled) steel. And, actually, a lot of his order is screwed. He puts Damascus steel at the end (and calls it folded, which has noting to do with anything -- you can fold wrought iron, and indeed do so to work the excess carbon out and still maintain manageable proportions), while it should come before steel with nickel and high carbon steel (which should be reversed). And high carbon steel was what you got if you worked out enough of the carbon from pig iron, so it should go way back (not a good material because of its brittleness).
Frankly his whole post is technically wrong in addition to being "wrong" in the gaming sense.
--Pete
Too good to miss - TheDragoon - 06-19-2004
I think you've not really addressed his main point that was "The reason iron wasnt used as armor is mainly that it was rare commodity and not all that easy to work into large or thin forms." I don't think he meant to question you knowledge about how certain armors (for example, say, Kevlar :) ) work, but that those facts don't really fit in with what happened.
Too good to miss - --Pete - 06-19-2004
Hi,
Well, given that iron ore is more common than copper ore or tin ore, even the "history" bit is crap. Let's see, you said:
The reason iron wasnt used as armor is mainly that it was rare commodity and not all that easy to work into large or thin forms
OK, once it was figured out how to smelt it, it ceased being rare -- it was common as dirt.
Pig iron had to be worked into thin pieces so that the excess copper from the primitive smelting process could be worked out.
It wasn't until the high middle ages that a lot of plate armor came about. Scale, ring, chain were all more common throughout history. So, no need for any big pieces.
Three swings, three misses, you're out.
--Pete
Too good to miss - dkass - 06-19-2004
Sorry about missing your post about the guns being modern. I'm not in the playtest and didn't realize the discussion invovled modern guns. I was assuming flintlocks or maybe even match fired things...
Are the guns "damaged" by getting wet (ie swimming or rain)? I suppose the more correct approach would be to make them inoperable for some fairly long duration (minutes to hours).
The more I hear the less I'm interested in WoW. I don't mind when magic and modern mix, but I expect it to then make sense. Swords and especially armor need serious explaining in a world with AK-47 and the like. Or even with gatling guns or "six-shooters." I suppose if the game works and is fun, a lot can be forgiven, but the more mediocre (for a strategy game player), the harder its going to be to suspend my disbelief and achieve any "world immersion."
Too good to miss - --Pete - 06-19-2004
Hi,
Sorry about missing your post about the guns being modern. I'm not in the playtest and didn't realize the discussion invovled modern guns. I was assuming flintlocks or maybe even match fired things...
Well, I'd say that the behavior and firing speed of the guns are about equal to "Brown Bess*". And if anyone actually *used* a sword at Waterloo (except maybe in a cavalry charge), *I* don't know about it :)
Are the guns "damaged" by getting wet (ie swimming or rain)?
Hahahahahah. Oops, sorry. You must be thinking of an *RPG*. No, there *is* no rain and people can swim (even in full armor -- powerful arms those) with no effect whatsoever.
I expect it to then make sense
Are we speaking of the same Blizzard? You know, the one where Cain and the barbarians wait until you save them so that *they* can cast Town Portal*?
I suppose if the game works and is fun, a lot can be forgiven, but the more mediocre (for a strategy game player), the harder its going to be to suspend my disbelief and achieve any "world immersion."
Indeed. WoW is a "beer and pretzels" game. Or as some have dubbed it "RPG lite". The social aspect will make it fun for a while, but like cotton candy it has no real value (at least now, and I don't see any coming).
--Pete
* âBrown Bessâ
(THE ARMY MUSKETâ1700 â 1815)
Rudyard Kipling
IN THE days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despiseâ
An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
With a habit of looking men straight in the eyesâ
At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.
Though her sight was not long and her weight was not small
Yet her actions were winning, her language was clear;
And everyone bowed as she opened the ball
On the arm of some high-gaitered, grim grenadier.
Half Europe admitted the striking success
Of the dances and routs that were given by Brown Bess,
When ruffles were turned into stiff leather stocks
And people wore pigtails instead of perukes
Brown Bess never altered her iron-grey locks,
She knew she was valued for more than her looks.
âOh, powder and patches was always my dress,
And I think I am killing enough,â said Brown Bess.
So she followed her red-coats, whatever they did,
From the heights of Quebec to the plains of Assaye,
From Gibraltar to Acre, Cape Town and Madrid,
And nothing about her was changed on the way;
(But most of the Empire which now we possess
Was won through those years by old-fashioned Brown Bess.)
In stubborn retreat or in stately advance,
From the Portugal coast to the cork-woods of Spain
She had puzzled some excellent Marshals of France
Till none of them wanted to meet her again:
But later, near Brussels, Napoleonâno lessâ
Arranged for a Waterloo ball with Brown Bess.
She had danced till the dawn of that terrible dayâ
She danced on till dusk of more terrible night,
And before her linked squares his battalions gave way
And her long fierce quadrilles put his lancers to flight:
And when his gilt carriage drove off in the press,
âI have danced my last dance for the world!â said Brown Bess.
If you go to Museumsâthereâs one in Whitehallâ
Where old weapons are shown with their names writ beneath,
You will find her, upstanding, her back to the wall,
As stiff as a ramrod, the flint in her teeth.
And if ever we English had reason to bless
Any arm save our mothersâ, that arm is Brown Bess!