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The new patch is here! - MongoJerry - 07-08-2004

They just announced that the servers are being taken down now so that they can deliver the latest patch. Get ready to download! (It's supposed to be a patch -- not a full game download this time).

The new patch is here! - Bolty - 07-08-2004

Patch notes: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/...h-7-07-04.shtml

Eat that, non-warriors and mages! :)

-Bolty

The new patch is here! - Bun-Bun - 07-08-2004

Nyahh, nyahh, at least we druids got ... um ... some spells renamed. Sigh. Wait, at least the enchanting system was ... um ... unchanged.

I don't think this is going to be my favorite patch. <_<

The new patch is here! - MongoJerry - 07-08-2004

Bun-Bun,Jul 8 2004, 03:31 AM Wrote:Nyahh, nyahh, at least we druids got ... um ... some spells renamed. Sigh. Wait, at least the enchanting system was ... um ... unchanged.
At least you got some spells renamed. It looks like Priests didn't get *anything!* Where's our priest-only quests, dangit?!

At least I can buy my pet owl now.

The new patch is here! - lemekim - 07-08-2004

Bolty,Jul 8 2004, 03:18 AM Wrote:Patch notes:  http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/...h-7-07-04.shtml

Eat that, non-warriors and mages!  :)

-Bolty
You mean non-warriors and non-mages =\

Seriously wtf is up with that. I'd rather wait and see them put in later then two classes get a boost while the remaining ones have to wait.

On the other hand, mages might need it with this change:

"Polymorph: New spell added. Polymorph transforms the enemy into a sheep, forcing it to wander around for the duration of the spell. While wandering, the sheep can not attack or cast spells and will regenerate health very quickly. Any damage will transform the target back into its normal form. Only one target can be Polymorphed at a time. Polymorph will only work on Beasts, Dragons, Giants, Humanoids and Critters.

Sleep: Sleep is being changed to Polymorph."

-----------------------------------------------------

Looking over various other main changes (so many trivial "spell named blah is now named bleh" changes it's not funny):

"All melee abilities now require the target to be in front of the attacker. " Depending on just what counts in front, it can either make it a bit more difficult to hit enemies that try to run away, to downright impossible for melee characters.

"Bucklers have been removed from the game. Shamans now have the ability to use shields; Rogues and Hunters can no longer use shields. All existing bucklers have been turned into shields. " Shamans just got a nice boost. Or shields got a nerf.

"Wands can now be used by all classes that possess the Wand Proficiency; fire, frost and shadow skills are no longer necessary. " Interestnig - I wonder if a Warlock can add cold damage in such manner to his arsenal.

"Quest experience has been modified to be more in line with previous patches. " Good!

"Resistances have been added to many creatures. " Should be interesting... mages might need those talents even more. On the other hand, this could also mean a lot to Priests and Warlocks and even Druids/Shamans as well.


-------------------------------------------------------

Other interesting changes (from my opinion):

"Engineering: New recipes added up to skill 250. Goblin Rocket Boots have been temporarily removed and will reappear once the Goblin Engineering Line is added. Engineering may have a slower skill-up rate than it did previously. The Mechanical Squirrel has a new mechanical graphic and requires malachite to make. " As a hardcore engineer, I am quite high in engineering on my chars that use it. Still, unless they added Artisan engineering, the skill cap is 225...

"Survival: Crackling sounds have been added to player created campfires. " Yes!!! Let's improve the virtually useless tradeskill by... Adding crackling noises!!! Lame.

The new patch is here! - JustAGuy - 07-08-2004

So.... What are some of the talents available now, then?

The new patch is here! - lemekim - 07-08-2004

A sneak at Warrior's Talents =) I am sure you have been wondering what it's like, and it's reminiscent of Diablo 2 skills system. There are 3 different areas you can improve in.

[Image: wow2.jpg]

Just like in Diablo, you have to get certain skills or certain amount in some skills to be able to get other skills.

[Image: wow3.jpg]

However the attributes are capped at different values. A talent to increase one's armor by 10 (Toughness) can have up to 5 talent points in it, but a talent to reduce your taunt rage cost (which is normally 5) can only have 2 talent points in it. Moreover, some of the high-end talents require a substantial investment into one of the three specializations.

[Image: wow1.jpg]

My guess is that most people will opt to max one specialization, judging by mutual benefits, focus of the specialization and requirements between talents. Then, if they have leftover talent points, they can go for another specialization. I have not looked at it too much, but this is a very serious leg up. Other classes that did not get the talent system yet will feel completely gimped.



P.S. Forgot one important tidbit! Experience required to level seems to have been lowered significantly across the board. My level 40 Shaman got reduction from 120k to about 75k; my 32 rogue got reduction from about 95k to 55k. And with increased quest reward experience, hopefully this will not be as much of a grind as previous push was.

The new patch is here! - Bolty - 07-08-2004

lemekim,Jul 7 2004, 11:45 PM Wrote:You mean non-warriors and non-mages =\
No, I meant what I said.

Mages have been hit With a gigantic nerf bat. The switchover from Sleep to Polymorph has once again turned mages into a class that's only good for one thing: doing damage, and as a class they don't do nearly enough damage to be worth having along in a group. Since Polymorph turns the monster into a sheep (an obvious change for PvP without thinking of the PvE ramifications), the Mage's crowd control is now gone. I'll explain.

Sheep cannot be attacked or they'll come back to normal. They also regenerate very quickly. But the main problem is that the sheep run off, and when they morph back they invite any buddies in the vicinity to come and smack you down. If you use Polymorph in a dungeon, start running, because you're dead meat. Mages are now back to phase 1 - they have very little party usage, and will be shunned by other classes because they're just troublemakers. Remember that Mages, in a party, can't just let loose like they do solo or they draw aggro. When a Mage, physically weak as they are, draws aggro, the party has to stop what they're doing and save him/her. In the end, without Sleep, mages will simply be the annoyances they were in phase 1, when I recall having a tough time finding groups who would play with me in the dungeons as a mage.

At least mages get talents. I have not yet seen the talents for mages, so I can't comment on if there's anything there that would help mages out.

See, Sleep was too powerful in PvP, so it needed a change. But this was too drastic. I don't understand why they didn't just try seeing what would happen with the diminishing returns system of crowd control implemented this patch for PvP (see the patch notes). Every class can bring something to a party now, except for mages - and don't tell me passing out conjured food and water makes up for all the other deficiencies, because it doesn't. :)

As usual, there are a ton of changes not listed in the patch notes, and those are coming out on the Blizzard general forums. Good to take a look.

-Bolty

The new patch is here! - TaiDaishar - 07-08-2004

Bun-Bun,Jul 8 2004, 06:31 AM Wrote:Nyahh, nyahh, at least we druids got ... um ... some spells renamed. Sigh. Wait, at least the enchanting system was ... um ... unchanged.

I don't think this is going to be my favorite patch.&nbsp; <_<
A word from Kat:
Quote: The current Enchanting system will eventually be replaced as Enchanting is getting a complete overhaul in the near future. This is why the Enchanting tradeskill has not received any improvements over the last several patches.

So have patiance and be thankful you're in the beta!

The new patch is here! - Cryptic - 07-08-2004

>>See, Sleep was too powerful in PvP, so it needed a change ...

The change as implemented is silly. Polymorph should be *added* to the Mage's arsenal, not taking away its bread and butter.

The simple solution, which might be worth /suggesting:

Give Sleep back to Magi, so they have it for PvE. When it is used in PvP, change its effect so that it slows the target by a percentage. (Similar to Decrepify in Diablo II). The percentage could be based on level difference between caster and target, perhaps 5% per caster level of superiority, to a maximum of 50%.

The new patch is here! - Ruvanal - 07-08-2004

The problem with the Polymorph to sheep that apparently was not sufficently considered is that the AI is changed to the one that the sheep use. This critter AI will normally just have them wander around a little (apperently what the devs were thing of). But the problem is that with the critter AI, if the critter comes within melee range of an active fight then they jump to the fear response to 'get out of the way' and then they go running off.

If you as a single player polymorph one target at the start of the battle then you can spell away at a mob next to the sheep without a problem. This also has the effect of attracting nearby mobs if used in a 'social' type group did just as sleep used to do. This allows one to use the polymorph to take one mob out and seperate a cluster into a smaller number to deal with. By keeping the melee action away from a ploymorphed target, they do not wander much. Different style of play that will require a different coordination of team members. No more turning a mob that is already in melee combat off without dire consequences as used to be the most frequent use I saw demanded of sleep. It takes planning on what to do, not just quick reaction to a situation that is going bad.

I am of the opinion thought that this change is not very good for the mage overall. Perhaps if they set it up so that the polymorphed target had a different AI that was less susceptable to being frightened off it would not be so bad. My first thought of the change when downloading was that "Oh, the sheep will just mill about in the area and maybe have a chance of waking up a mob alerady very close to it." Not what this change is actually ending up doing to the the polymorphed target.

Quote:At least mages get talents. I have not yet seen the talents for mages, so I can't comment on if there's anything there that would help mages out.

There are options to help them. It may be necessary to use the talents in particular combinations to make the character the most 'party friendly' but it should be possible. Some of the talents gave effects such as reduced stuttering (mage will not be held up from casting as bad as currently). Effects to add stun chances and DoT effects to some the fire spells that will help hold mobs in place and spread the damage out more to cut back on the single massive aggro that used to happen with many of the fire spells. Cold spells getting more chilling and freezing effects that will give more opportunity to to root the mobs. Arcane talents that shorten their cool downs (or casting times) and make their spell less subject to being interupted and also generating less aggro when used. Off hand it looks like the mage that specializes in the arcane tree may be the most party friendly without needing to be a skilled player or in a skilled group with the lower rate of aggro on spells and less interuption to those spells. But time will tell when all the different parts get to be seen in action.

The new patch is here! - MongoJerry - 07-08-2004

Ruvanal,Jul 8 2004, 04:15 PM Wrote:Perhaps if they set it up so that the polymorphed target had a different AI that was less susceptable to being frightened off it would not be so bad.&nbsp; My first thought of the change when downloading was that "Oh, the sheep will just mill about in the area and maybe have a chance of waking up a mob alerady very close to it."&nbsp; Not what this change is actually ending up doing to the the polymorphed target.
This was my thought exactly when I read the patch notes, and I thought it was a good PvE change. Sleep, no matter what class had it, was always too powerful, and I felt that this was a creative and funny way to make one have to *think* a bit before using it. In particular, it eliminates the boring and overpowered "sleep pull." If one tried a "polymorph pull," then the sheep could wander and wake up more targets. However, if one pulled mobs and then polymorphed them when near you, then you should be OK, although you still might have to watch out a bit. I like the idea very much, actually. They just need to get rid of the "scared" AI that sends the sheep running.

Regarding PvP, the change has no effect and I have no clue why anyone would think this was intended as a "nerf" to sleep in PvP. I was turned into a sheep last night in the Shimmering Flats (man, the racetrack where everybody gets and turns in quests is a war zone), and the effect was the same. I couldn't do anything for 30 seconds -- only this time I wandered a bit, felt the burning humiliation of being a sheep and enjoyed shackling that undead mage all the more once the polymorph was over. In fact, if anything, polymorph is better than sleep in PvP, because as the sheep wanders the person gets all turned around.

No, this was clearly intended as a PvE change, and I agree with the change -- as long as they get rid of the "scared" sheep AI.

The new patch is here! - --Pete - 07-08-2004

Hi,

I'm glad that they are finally using the patch system. Perhaps the future changes will be more evolutionary than revolutionary.

They've made a further "improvement" in the rest system -- now it is down to 2 states, just one more than they really need :) The fact that they keep nerfing it shows what a bad idea it is (Will the system as it is now really help anyone?) The fact that they don't get rid of it shows what a great marketing tool it is ("You too can have a level 9999 character in just minutes a week!") What's left of it is hardly "a pimple on the butt of progress." I still object to it in principle, but since it hardly exists in practice (and so they can balance the game without it), I can live with it. What is interesting is the comment, "This has enabled us to greatly reduce the experience necessary for all players to level" indicating that the rest system as it had been implemented was indeed a penalty system. But enough -- even Blizzard seems to realize that this is indeed a dead horse.

Looked over the "talents" for a warrior. Not too impressed by the whole system, and it isn't clear to me what differentiates "talents" from "abilities". Sure, they are on two different panes, one is bought with money and level, the other with points (which come from level). But the function seems about the same. Clearly Blizzard couldn't figure out how to balance money, making it possible to buy all the abilities on each level up. However, they could pretty easily get rid of trainers and abilities and make the whole smear talent based. The concepts become murky indeed when no one is steering the boat (sorry for the mixed metaphors).

Tried the "click to move" system. It fits right in with the rest of the UI -- i.e., it is a patchwork of poor concepts poorly implemented by a group that clearly lacks a UI designer. The mouse buttons were badly overloaded as is, adding more functions to them is . . . ? I'm not sure what it is other than wrong.

The "balancing" of classes looks to me like PvP is a the main focus. Since the AI of the mobs is nowhere near the intelligence of the users, and since mobs and users represent different challenges requiring different (and often conflicting) character abilities, I suspect that whichever way Blizzard goes on this one, one group or another is going to be very disappointed. Unless, of course, Blizzard compromises just right, in which case both groups will hate it.

The New Guard System looks like another admission that a concept went wrong. The idea that people would come flocking to the defense of their towns on the PvE server is a joke. The reason people are on that server is that they don't want PvP in the first place. Apparently even the PvP players don't care nearly as much about defending their towns and people as they do about going out and playing yet another version of DOOM.

Glad to see the auction houses in. Haven't tried them yet, but if they make the selling of items a "fire and forget" process, I'm all in favor. Now if there were just some items to actually sell (other than raw materials).

The PvP diminishing returns looks like a patchwork solution for the lack of resistances. It's interesting to speculate why resistances are taking so long. Does Blizzard have a new concept for them? After all, they have been in at least two Blizzard games in the past.

The removal of the buckler is a step backwards. While the shield was always a device that took great skill and a fair degree of strength to use and thus reserved for the trained warriors, the buckler was usually the tool of the common people. A druid with a *shield*??? And a rogue who cannot fight "backsword and buckler"?

Many of the minor changes (aside from the long list of "renamed") are about what should be going on to balance the game. But with some major pieces still missing or just now being implemented, I don't know how valid those tweaks may be.

But the thing that scares me most is that the basic *concepts* of the game are still not nailed down. With the mood at Vivendi being what it is, and with about four months left till Vivendi's announced release date, Blizzard may very well take the "ship what's done and put what's needed to actually finish the game into the expansion" attitude that they largely took with D2 and completely took with WC3.

--Pete

The new patch is here! - MongoJerry - 07-08-2004

Quote:The PvP diminishing returns looks like a patchwork solution for the lack of resistances. It's interesting to speculate why resistances are taking so long. Does Blizzard have a new concept for them? After all, they have been in at least two Blizzard games in the past.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Prior to yesterday's patch, there seemed to be a resistance mechanism of some sort. I know when I dueled another priestess who had her Holy and Shadow resistance buffs on (+50 to each resistance), I couldn't do a darned thing to her with spells. Only after I dispelled her buffs was I able to do any damage with spells (and then I pwned her). So there's obviously resistances of some kind in place.

Also, I know that when I took on the voidwalkers in the Tower of Athalaxx, I was doing about a quarter of the damage I would expect with shadow spells but holy spells did the expected damage. That indicated to me that voidwalkers had some sort of shadow resistance mechanism.

It's possible that the belief that there is no resistance system could come from the fact that, as I understand it, many mobs had 0 resistances. Therefore, even though a resistance mechanism was in place, most mobs didn't benefit from it. However, the patch notes said that they added resistances to many mobs. It seems clear that resistances are in fact already in place.

Quote:The New Guard System looks like another admission that a concept went wrong. The idea that people would come flocking to the defense of their towns on the PvE server is a joke. The reason people are on that server is that they don't want PvP in the first place.

Pete, you really are too negative about a game that is in beta and is constantly being improved. The previous version of PvP was the first quick and dirty implementation of it, designed to allow Blizzard to test some concepts. They said right from the beginning that this was not how PvP would be in the final implementation and that they had a lot more planned. In the case of the PvP server, I've actually found myself enjoying the experience a lot. I think a lot of the complaints with the PvP system stem ironically with the PvE server, where you can't do anything to a potential griefer until that griefer attacks an NPC. So, a griefer can just walk right up to a quest-giving NPC or a gryphon master and you can't do a darned thing about it until that person gets their first shots in with the NPC. And by then, it's basically too late. And if the person runs off, five minutes later you can't kill that person anymore, so there's no point for a high level character to run in defence of a lower level zone. But on the PvP server, griefers have a lot more territory in which they're exposed, and indeed high level characters will with reasonable frequency run to the aid of an attacked zone, because they know they can hunt the raiders down. It's actually quite fun. I'm finding myself in the surprising position of encouraging people to move to the PvP server, even if PvP isn't really your "thing." There's a lot more comraderie, a lot more protection, and less griefing than you see (or at least that I've seen) on the PvE server.

The new patch is here! - MongoJerry - 07-08-2004

This is what Kat wrote on the mage's Polymorph spell:

Quote:When a creature is polymorphed into a sheep, it can and will still call for help. It will also wander around in a 5 yard radius (this is a very small wandering distance). This is how the spell is intended to work.

Players who are using Polymorph to pull a camp (like using Sleep previously) may find that in doing so they will in fact aggro the camp as the sheep will wander around in its 5 yard radius calling for help.

If however, Mages are experiencing sheep running around in a wider area, then there is a problem with the Polymorph spell. I have already reported the possibility of this problem to the QA department for research but feel free to post any additional comments you have here as well.

So if sheep are indeed bolting beyond the five yard radius, then it's a bug and not a feature. If they remove that bug, then I would be very happy with this change from sleep to polymorph. I think they moved in the right direction.

The new patch is here! - lemekim - 07-08-2004

To Bolty - the polymorphed sheeps are suppose to only wonder about 5 yards at most. The devs confirmed that its a bug with their AI that it acts like critter. Maybe they will even make the polymorphed animal stick in one place... --- Mongo beat me to it =\

On the other hand your complaint that mages don't do enough damage to be taken into group now is really not valid. Last push they were the best damage dealing class, and with a new change to rogues (most special attacks now miss at pretty abnormal rate - about 1/3 of the time, and the stealth openers and finishers miss about 50% of the time), the only other class geared towards high damage output, the mages are the best damage dealers period. Combine that with AOE capabilities, free food/drink for party, intelligence buff for casters, and the new talents and I don't see why anyone would not want one in their party.

Of course priests will still be the first choice, and warriors will be second now more then ever, but thats a different story =).

The new patch is here! - --Pete - 07-08-2004

Hi,

So there's obviously resistances of some kind in place.

Some resistance of some kind is hardly a working system. I did not say there were *no* resistances, I said there was a *lack* of it. Anyone using any form of "spell" even two pushes back has seen the "resists" flash on their screen Some character types and some monsters under some conditions seem to have it. Balancing spell effects against those that have it ends up with way overpowered effects against those that don't have resistance yet. Balancing it against those that don't have it results in spells that are totally ineffective when they encounter it.

Pete, you really are too negative about a game that is in beta and is constantly being improved.

The game is in beta, I'm allowing for that. I'm also allowing for the fact that this game has been under development for well over three years, that Vivendi effectively gave them a time limit (and from the example at Sierra, Blizzard needs to take that limit seriously) and that whole major parts of the game not only aren't implemented, they aren't even fully thought out.

As to "constantly being improved", that's a craps shoot. Constantly being added to, yes. And some of the additions are improvements. But not all.

My cynicism and negativity stem from two main sources. First is the obvious fact that this game, like all Blizzard games and most games in general, has not been designed. The outline of a concept was implemented and then a random walk process is being used that will, hopefully, yield a fun, challenging, interesting, and balanced game. The fact that that process has yet to achieve more than one or two of those goals at a time and often fails at achieving any of them does not seem to bother Blizzard. Whether that's confidence from experience or hubris remains to be seen.

The second is related. Both of the last two games Blizzard has put out were highly incomplete at release and even their respective expansions didn't fully deliver the game that each *could* and should have been. The MMOG market is close to saturation. I want a good game from Blizzard, I want it to succeed for the selfish reason that if it doesn't, I will not be able to play it.

The problem is that Blizzard may generate a "successful" game that will have mass appeal and be the MMORPG equivalent of The Sims. The game will be available, but I will not be interested in playing it. Or they might push a seriously broken or incomplete product out the door. In which case, the game might have a good "core" but not last long enough to have it show. And again I would not be playing it (of course, neither will anyone else).

Of course, the Blizzard "answer" is "we'll ship it when it's done." That was true of D1 (buggy, but done). Of SC/BW (their most "polished" game(s)). It was not true of D2 (arenas, guild halls, greatly abbreviated act 5) nor of WC3. The rep of the company might sell enough boxes to make the game a success, even if most people play it for a few weeks and toss it. But the economics of a MMOG require something better.

So, yeah, I am taking the fact that this is beta into consideration. I'm also taking track record, method of development, and the climate in the game industry into consideration. A great lesson can be learned by reading game magazines with some care. All "future" products they talk about are reported with great positive superlatives (most of them bestowed on features promised but not implemented). The reviews of products actually shipping are much less positive, with flaws and bugs usually overshadowing features. And no one seems to review games that have been out for a while for longevity.

If I must base my opinions on the three pillars of "it's Blizzard", "they've promised", and "it's a beta", then I can join the chorus of the fans who are chanting praises. And when it ship I can join that same chorus in the lamentation of "what happened?" I do not choose to fill that role.

--Pete

The new patch is here! - Roane - 07-08-2004

Pete,Jul 8 2004, 01:29 PM Wrote:The PvP diminishing returns looks like a patchwork solution for the lack of resistances.
Actually, the concept of diminishing returns for repeated crowd control spells in PvP was done in DAoC prior to this (two years ago or so?), and relatively effectively. As such, I don't see it as a 'patchwork' solution. It certainly made RvR combat much more survivable for those not playing in CC-overloaded Midgard, my little Champion included. It also led me and the others I spoke to regarding it at the time to just feel less frustrated with PvP/RvR combat, as you didn't stand there mezzed or stunned for ten minutes while a much smaller group picked your entire party off one by one.

The new patch is here! - Cryptic - 07-08-2004

Blizzard is taking the “throw $#*& out there” approach to designing this game. They throw concepts out. The beta crowd either howls in protest at the idea, or offers quibbling nitpicks for refinement. In the “howling” case, they redesign or add a new feature to compensate. If it’s just “quibbles,” they muck around and change the numbers a bit. It’s very hit and miss, but seeing them improvise, actually listen to feedback, and respond is quite interesting. I think the result will be an erratically good and ever-changing game. I just wish I understood their agenda more.
:P

The new patch is here! - Guest - 07-09-2004

"actually listen to feedback,"

Having played DAoC and watching Mythic deal with feedback, I hope the Bliz makes a hard delineation between beta and live, development practices.

Once a game goes live I feel a company needs to focus on what players are actually doing in game rather than what they complain about. Players are pretty smart, but also selfish - they will make a mess of your total game to help themselves if they are empowered to noticably effect change.