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Big Changes Coming Next Push - Bolty - 08-09-2004
First, http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx...4285#Post184285
Second, http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx...4531#Post184531
I like this. But at first, things will be pretty rough until they balance out the monsters. Now that Mage talent that adds mana regeneration rate becomes much more important (before, I considered it useless). I hope Priests get something similar, because Priests are by far the most mana-dependent class, being unable to conjure their own water or transfer hit points to mana like Warlocks can.
I am most definitely getting First Aid with my warrior next phase, now. :)
-Bolty
Big Changes Coming Next Push - TheDragoon - 08-09-2004
I definitely agree that the Mage Arcane Talents are getting a huge step up with this as efficiency will mean a lot in the future with these changes. This fix will also make the difference between the "sustained" DPS classes and the "burst" DPS classes more evident. Currently, the "burst" is more continuous than it should be since all they have to do is take some time off to drink and then start blasting again. Conversely, Rogues and Warlocks will be able to continue their sustained DPS. In addition, with Rogues picking up Talents, I think I'm going to start up and Undead Rogue to see how they compare.
I think the thing that's up in the air is going to be the Priests. Currently, they can run through an entire mana bar pretty quick in some of the tougher fights. When you run out, spirit regeneration just never seems to be enough to keep your team alive. Perhaps we'll see some talents that give better bang for your buck with healing spells that will fix this problem.
We'll see what all is going to happen with this next patch, but, honestly, I think this was a necessary change given that the current design has mages drinking in fights left and right, allowing them to blast everything into submission, making the high sustained DPS classes rather useless in many cases.
Big Changes Coming Next Push - JustAGuy - 08-09-2004
Quote:I think the thing that's up in the air is going to be the Priests. Currently, they can run through an entire mana bar pretty quick in some of the tougher fights. When you run out, spirit regeneration just never seems to be enough to keep your team alive. Perhaps we'll see some talents that give better bang for your buck with healing spells that will fix this problem.
I think a mana regen talent would be a nice idea. If that doesn't come to pass, potions can make the difference in certain situations. I've effectively kept myself and party members alive by sucking down mana potions in some of the more dire situations.
Not all Priests need to be alchemists, but keeping potions for the emergencies is always a good idea. Picking some up at auction should be a viabale alternative to making them. The only problem is that you're not likely to find them cheap, cheap enough to justify buying and using them on a regular basis, if you find them at all. If Mageroyal was more abundant, that would drive the price down, allowing for the Alchemy skill to become a money maker, and give mana depleted classes a way to get back in the fight when they're on empty. Especially since they won't be able to drink during a battle after the next patch.
Currently, from my observation, Kingsblood (required for lesser mana potions) is pretty abundant, moreso than Mageroyal. Considering Mageroyal is used in at least 15 recipes (enchanting and alchemy), including the Healing Potion (The level 3 health potion), I think it would be useful for the dev team to give us a bit more of it. That way, Priests and other mana hungry classes can load up on lesser mana potions for that one-extra-cast. At the time of this posting, there was one auction for a lesser mana potion, and no one wanted it, and the others were Mana Potions, each going for at least 1 gold (good lord!). Making the ingredients more freely available would make it easier for us to create, sell, and as a result, consume mana potions. Well, at least, the lesser potions. I've never seen a greater mana potion at auction, nor do I think I ever will. Talk about hot commodity, that one!
Big Changes Coming Next Push - MongoJerry - 08-09-2004
Quote:I think the thing that's up in the air is going to be the Priests. Currently, they can run through an entire mana bar pretty quick in some of the tougher fights. When you run out, spirit regeneration just never seems to be enough to keep your team alive. Perhaps we'll see some talents that give better bang for your buck with healing spells that will fix this problem.
This won't hurt my priest play very much at all, as I have gathered tons of +spirit gear (I'm at 187 spirit now at lvl 50) and have learned to be mana efficient with my play when necessary, meaning that I rarely drink in the middle of combat. I also have First Aid and mana potions as backups. The main problem will be during long fights with big bosses. Spirit and First Aid will help, but it won't be enough. Perhaps with this change, I'll use First Aid more often, even when I have plenty of mana left, just to conserve on mana. However, I suspect that priests will also have some sort of mana regeneration talent or some kind of prayer that gives them a full mana bar once every hour or something that can be used against big bosses.
We'll have to wait and see. I also like this change. It's a very nice balance change to mages and will force them to change their playstyle. Heck, they might even become unpopular enough that I'll want to make one. :lol:
Big Changes Coming Next Push - Bolty - 08-09-2004
MongoJerry,Aug 9 2004, 05:09 PM Wrote:It's a very nice balance change to mages and will force them to change their playstyle. Heck, they might even become unpopular enough that I'll want to make one. :lol:I wouldn't count on it. Mages will still rule the PvP roost due to the insane burst damage they can produce on a single enemy. Who cares about drinking in combat if the enemy's dead? :) Likely there are more nerfs to Mages in the works than this.
From what I see, Rogues will rock. They will be unconcerned with this mana change and can pound away on the enemy as before. With talents added in, look out.
However, if Priests are not given something via Talents, their usefulness in PvE will be hurt even more. Already I can see with my level 45 Priest why they're unpopular - they just aren't very hot at soloing, requiring a lot of downtime unless you get a mage friend to make you some mana every time you log on.
-Bolty
Edit: fixed typo. I do NOT have more than one level 45 Priest. :)
Big Changes Coming Next Push - Roane - 08-09-2004
MongoJerry,Aug 9 2004, 05:09 PM Wrote:It's a very nice balance change to mages and will force them to change their playstyle.It's not really a huge change to playstyle for me. What it means is, if I pull a group of two (intentionally or accidentally), I sheep the add, kill the first one, and then move far enough away that it won't chase me. Before, I would have sat and drank and killed the sheep, and that's what I won't be able to do.
I /think/ other mages might play that a bit differently though. I'm big into choosing my battles anyway. And I use a lot of potions, and use my mana gems.
And of course, that wouldn't work for PvP, where there's no such thing as a limit to the aggro range.
So, this makes me curious. I can definitely see the huge impact this is going to have on Priests. But how do you think this is going to affect most mages? How do you see their fight styles/patterns changing?
Big Changes Coming Next Push - Jini - 08-09-2004
You are aware that Pyroblast's initial damage is being reduced by 25%, right?
Big Changes Coming Next Push - MongoJerry - 08-09-2004
Quote:I wouldn't count on it. Mages will still rule the PvP roost due to the insane burst damage they can produce on a single enemy. Who cares about drinking in combat if the enemy's dead? :) Likely there are more nerfs to Mages in the works than this.
The only reason mages are great in PvP is invisibility. If the person is patient enough to wait for me to engage an enemy and then pyroblast me from behind, there's nothing I can do. But in a straight-up fight, I kill the mage 60% of the time, the mage is forced to run 30% of the time, and I die about 10% of the time. Give me some kind of Detect Greater Invisibility ability, and I'll go out and slaughter every mage on the PvP server. (And I would, too!)
Quote:However, if Priests are not given something via Talents, their usefulness in PvE will be hurt even more. Already I can see with my level 45 Priest why they're unpopular - they just aren't very hot at soloing, requiring a lot of downtime unless you get a mage friend to make you some mana every time you log on.
Wierd. I don't have any trouble soloing. I mix in Pain and a mind blast or two with a lot of melee fighting, a style that is fairly mana efficient. The battles may be a little slower, but there's very little downtime. I certainly am never in any danger unless I pull too many elite mobs or something.
Quote:So, this makes me curious. I can definitely see the huge impact this is going to have on Priests. But how do you think this is going to affect most mages? How do you see their fight styles/patterns changing?
Well, for one thing, the stereotypical mage wears all-int gear, figuring if they ever need mana, they can sheep their opponent and take a drink. Or, if the target is immune to sheep, then they can frost nova the enemy/enemies and take a quick sip. This change will certainly make it harder on mages to solo elites and particularly hard bosses that can take more than one mana ball's worth of damage. Mages will have to look to other ways of getting a recharge during a battle -- wearing +spirit gear, stocking up on tons of mana potions (which could be expensive or time consuming to do), or rearrange talents to get more mana regeneration (which would hinder the all-damage skills crowd).
There are lots of ways that this will affect the typical mage, although perhaps Roane your play-style isn't the same as most mages. Most mages I've seen in action -- both solo and in groups -- drink liberally during battles even for just a few quick sips. After all, water is free for mages, so they can afford to drink only for a short spurts at a time. I think priests will be just fine, because most priests are used to not always having a large supply of mage-created water and are therefore used to being more mana efficient in their play. Like I said, I only see this being a problem against big nasty instance bosses, and hopefully priest talents will have ways of dealing with those situations.
Big Changes Coming Next Push - Roane - 08-10-2004
It does seem that my playstyle is different. I rarely take on things I can't kill in one mana pool (intentionally). I'd say I never do, but there's always exceptions. It's definitely not something I look for. Also, I'm evenly split between spirit and int gear. Huh. Now I feel special. ;)
You know, the first time I was playing my druid in EQ as a main healer for a group and someone let me know that I was expected to sit on my bottom if I ran out of mana and med, it frustrated me to no end (still had to stare at the spellbook then -- couldn't even see the fight, let alone help). I think that this change may lead to some new ways of looking at things, especially for the 'traditional MMO' crowd that's caught up in the way EQ did things, or DAoC did things, etc.
Big Changes Coming Next Push - lemekim - 08-10-2004
MongoJerry,Aug 10 2004, 12:31 AM Wrote:The only reason mages are great in PvP is invisibility.Mages are still among the two best PvPer classes even without the invisibility. While invisibility is a great asset to mages, it's not their only tool. Both sheep and pyroblast add to the issue. Often a mage, even if they don't get the first shot, can simply sheep the person, drink/eat to restore manafe, then calmly pyroblast/fireblast you for about 2k damage. It's so powerful, that a lot people I've seen who duel avoid it, unless absolutely necessary. Frost nova, blink, all these skills makes them hard to catch, and mana shield makes them hard to kill as well.
Consider a rogue. While they do sort of get the invisibility (current issues with stealth aside), even if they get the jump it's not an automatic win. You might see it differently being a priest, which just happens to be the other top PvP class. I won't include here warriors who use the Charge-MS-MS-MS cheese, considering that Mortal Strike will have cooldown next patch.
As for the original discussion, while the changes might make the priests/mages a bit less powerful in groups without drinking, it will hurt other mana dependent classes even more (warlock is more of a "life-depending" class considering Life Tap =). If we look at a druid - while their heals are comparable to that of a priest, their mana pool is smaller, and they also get .25 mana regen per tick per point of spirit as opposed to priests .33 mana per tick per point of spirit. With smaller mana pool and slower mana regeneration, no one will ever want one in their group as a primary healer. While the change is indeed necessary to prevent various abuses, certain encounters need to be changed somewhat to account for the new system.
I don't see the mages changing much though, or getting less desired in groups. It just makes evocation a must-have - essentially a talent that refills your mana ball in 5 secs with 15 min cooldown. And certain mage playstyles (mainly Ice) can provide much higher damage output then a rogue or said warlock could, while still lasting a long time.
Big Changes Coming Next Push - Tal - 08-10-2004
Bolty,Aug 9 2004, 04:28 PM Wrote:However, if Priests are not given something via Talents, their usefulness in PvE will be hurt even more. Already I can see with my level 45 Priest why they're unpopular - they just aren't very hot at soloing, requiring a lot of downtime unless you get a mage friend to make you some mana every time you log on.Looks like priest talents will help on this score. But since BWhittle is giving hints on making your mana last in the same post I somehow doubt it will be enough. We'll have to see. :)