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+--- Thread: Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance (/thread-8034.html)
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - Any1 - 08-24-2004
I was thinking of building a PvM Defiant Vindicator for my next build.
Naturally, I'm interested in the highest defense shield I can find. I've been saving runes, across almost a dozen high clvl characters, ever since they were introduced. I have the necessary runes for making an Exile runeword. I also have a Ethereal Superior (+15% defense) Sacred Rondache.
I want to build an "old-school" Defiant, meaning using the Defiance aura almost exclusively. I also plan to use as much high defense Crushing Blow gear as possible. I was wondering how the two Defiance auras (one from skill point investment and one from the Exile runeword) are going to interact?
In 1.09 I remember that when the same auras, from two separate characters, used to switch back and forth, using their individual 3-second pulses. So assuming a high slvl and a low slvl Holy Freeze aura, each would be statically effecting the surrounding environment only half of the time. Is this still the case with auras emanating from the same character?
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - lfd - 08-24-2004
The quick (and very slightly inaccurate) answer is "no, they don't interact - only the higher slvl aura will be operational". For a more detailed answer, you might want to check out this ongoing thread at the Amazon Basin.
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - gekko - 08-25-2004
One important thing to note about the defiant build is that it's not only about defence. Simply put, you could have infinite defence, and that alone won't make a good build.
My point is that, once you acchieve a sufficient level of defence (sufficient depending a great deal on your gear and and your goals), you should definately be willing to trade even hundreds of defence rating points for what will be more important stats -- including resists, damage, leech, hit recovery and attack speed.
My own personal preference for this type of build is now an avenger coupled with a defiance merc (though a zealot with a definance merc would also be interesting). This pally is designed more as a party character, though he has great solo potential. The combination of 75% blocking, very high resists (85+ in fire/coldghtning thanks to guardian angel and points in the resistance auras), fast hit recovery, and high defence (around 10k last time I checked -- enough for the Lying Character Screen (LCS) to put most enemies around 20-25% to hit, anyways) makes him a very solid tank. This allows him to hack away at one target at a time. While some footwork is required in very open areas to combat swarming, against small groups, his tanking ability is all the crowd control you'll ever need.
If you DO decide to invest more heavily in defiance, just keep in mind the other neccessary gaps you'll need to plug to both stay alive, and drop the baddies. Also keep in mind that, if you keep the defiance aura active from the skill itself (ie not exile or a merc), that leaves your offensive options weakened.
gekko
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - Any1 - 08-25-2004
lfd,Aug 24 2004, 11:56 PM Wrote:The quick (and very slightly inaccurate) answer is "no, they don't interact - only the higher slvl aura will be operational". For a more detailed answer, you might want to check out this ongoing thread at the Amazon Basin.Thanks! That's exactly what I was looking for. I don't know how I missed that one on AB. :huh:
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - Ajax - 08-25-2004
Also, never forget the awesome power of Holy Shield and its ability to increase blocking %. If you choose to go "natural Defiance" over the Exile, then you can get a goodly increase to your shield's defense rating as well (610% Defense).
But as long as we're on the topic of multiple auras active, how about this idea: your character has the Exile equipped, which gives him a Defiance aura of slvl 13-16. You use conviction/vengence or fanatacism/zeal as your actual character build. And to supplement this defensive concentration, you get a Holy Freeze merc from Nightmare/Act 2. Your enemies will be swinging slower, meaning less attacks on you over time. When they do attack, they have to do an attack calculation against your high defense and then get past your maxed blocking shield. Talk about crowd control.
The net result of this is, you have a defensive bonus of 190~220% from the Defiance; your shield is maxed blocking from even a few points in Holy Shield; and your enemies are drastically slowed by your mercenary. To top it off, your offensive power is undiminished from skill point diffusion.
Does this sound reasonable? If there are others out there with specific experience, please pitch in! I'd like to hear it. Specifically, how do I calculate the monster probabilities to hit the character, given a monster attack rating and the player's defense?
To maximize on the defiance, though, you'd have to concentrate on the higher-defense gear. The Leviathan (1514-1722), Steel Carapace (1618-1785), and Templar's Might (1622-1923) have the highest defence ratings of the Elite Unique armors; notable rune words are:
Enigma-- (+750~775 Defense)
in average Sacred Armor this gets you: 1318
Gloom-- (+200~260% Enhanced Defense)
in average Sacred Armor this gets you: 1412
Stone-- (+250~290% Enhanced Defense)
in average Sacred Armor this gets you: 1574
Of course, your gear choices are going to be limited by concerns outside of Defense Rating--gekko pointed them out well. Good Leech, FHR, resists, Damage Reduced by and MRD gear are all important properties to have in a defensive character, and gear choice has to take this into account. Specifically, you'll be loving your MDR and resists when you're pinned by a crowd and some Ghoul Lord lights you up with a firewall or meteor. :-(
I'm currently building a classic defiant (using only his Defiance aura). Over the years, I've managed to acquire a Leviathan (it actually inspired the Defiant) and can scrape together some various High-defense gear. If anybody is interested, I'll chronicle his development (albeit, in the Armory rather than the Workshop.)
Hope this helps!
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - Any1 - 08-25-2004
Ajax,Aug 25 2004, 09:27 AM Wrote:Also, never forget the awesome power of Holy Shield and its ability to increase blocking %. If you choose to go "natural Defiance" over the Exile, then you can get a goodly increase to your shield's defense rating as well (610% Defense). Max Holy shield is a given, of course.
But as long as we're on the topic of multiple auras active, how about this idea: your character has the Exile equipped, which gives him a Defiance aura of slvl 13-16. You use conviction/vengence or fanatacism/zeal as your actual character build. And to supplement this defensive concentration, you get a Holy Freeze merc from Nightmare/Act 2. Your enemies will be swinging slower, meaning less attacks on you over time. When they do attack, they have to do an attack calculation against your high defense and then get past your maxed blocking shield. Talk about crowd control.
The net result of this is, you have a defensive bonus of 190~220% from the Defiance; your shield is maxed blocking from even a few points in Holy Shield; and your enemies are drastically slowed by your mercenary. To top it off, your offensive power is undiminished from skill point diffusion.
Does this sound reasonable? If there are others out there with specific experience, please pitch in! I'd like to hear it. Specifically, how do I calculate the monster probabilities to hit the character, given a monster attack rating and the player's defense?
To maximize on the defiance, though, you'd have to concentrate on the higher-defense gear. The Leviathan (1514-1722), Steel Carapace (1618-1785), and Templar's Might (1622-1923) have the highest defence ratings of the Elite Unique armors; notable rune words are:
Enigma-- (+750~775 Defense)
in average Sacred Armor this gets you: 1318
Gloom-- (+200~260% Enhanced Defense)
in average Sacred Armor this gets you: 1412
Stone-- (+250~290% Enhanced Defense)
in average Sacred Armor this gets you: 1574
Of course, your gear choices are going to be limited by concerns outside of Defense Rating--gekko pointed them out well. Good Leech, FHR, resists, Damage Reduced by and MRD gear are all important properties to have in a defensive character, and gear choice has to take this into account. Specifically, you'll be loving your MDR and resists when you're pinned by a crowd and some Ghoul Lord lights you up with a firewall or meteor. :-(
I'm currently building a classic defiant (using only his Defiance aura). Over the years, I've managed to acquire a Leviathan (it actually inspired the Defiant) and can scrape together some various High-defense gear. If anybody is interested, I'll chronicle his development (albeit, in the Armory rather than the Workshop.)
Hope this helps!
In 1.09D I had Defiant Avenger that used a Holy Freeze merc. I remember standing in a pack of 20+ Hell Bovine and not even blinking.
I already have a Slinger (throwing Paladin), a Hammerdin, a Ranger, a Frost Zealot, and an Avenger in 1.10. I try to have as little in common between my builds as possible. Hence, the Defiant Vindicator.
I'm still undecided about the arnor. I definitely don't have the runes to make an Exile and a high-end armor runeword. All my builds are based on what I've found myself. These days there are so many duped rune-words and runes going around, that trading for one is pretty pointless, IMO. I do have two Leviathans and a Templar's Might (+1 OA). We'll have to wait and see.
Thanks for your advice.
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - gekko - 08-25-2004
Any1,Aug 25 2004, 11:10 AM Wrote:I'm still undecided about the arnor. I definitely don't have the runes to make an Exile and a high-end armor runeword. All my builds are based on what I've found myself. These days there are so many duped rune-words and runes going around, that trading for one is pretty pointless, IMO. I do have two Leviathans and a Templar's Might (+1 OA). We'll have to wait and see.Two of the bestest armors to consider are the fairly accessable Smoke and Lionheart. Lionheart has better all-around stats, but the resists and defence on smoke -- arguably the two most important attributes to a defiant -- can take you a long, long way.
Since it'll be a while before you can wear that templar's might, you'll at least have a long career where either of these two excellent runewords can be the rock around which you build your defiant.
gekko
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - Any1 - 08-25-2004
gekko,Aug 25 2004, 08:25 PM Wrote:Two of the bestest armors to consider are the fairly accessable Smoke and Lionheart. Lionheart has better all-around stats, but the resists and defence on smoke -- arguably the two most important attributes to a defiant -- can take you a long, long way.Lionheart is definitely one of my favorite rune-words. However, it lacks the defense boost I'm looking for in this build. I understand that the majority of my DR is going to come from my shield. I also undestand that you don't need to be in the 5% to-be-hit range, for a successful build (as you pointed out before). However, insane defense will be the goal for this build. Smoke maybe a mid-clvl option for this build.
Since it'll be a while before you can wear that templar's might, you'll at least have a long career where either of these two excellent runewords can be the rock around which you build your defiant.
gekko
With a lot of CB gear and Atma's Scarab, I'm not too worried about offensive capability. The wonderful thing about playing a Paladin is that there is so much room for variation even within a single build.
-Cheers
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - Guest - 08-26-2004
Is Avenger+fanatism a good combo?
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - Assur - 08-26-2004
The best aura for an Avenger is Conviction.
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - Brista - 08-26-2004
Ajax,Aug 25 2004, 09:27 AM Wrote:If you choose to go "natural Defiance" over the Exile, then you can get a goodly increase to your shield's defense rating as well (610% Defense).In 1.10 Holy Shield's defence bonus applies to all gear not just the shield
Also 3 second pulses have been changed to 2 second pulses and of course auras don't stick (or hardly stick) so aura flashing is gone
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - Ajax - 08-26-2004
I really should have thought of this one before, but if the idea of a Holy Freeze merc appeals to you (and you have a significant resource base to draw upon) you can try finding a polearm with the "Doom" runeword. The Cham runeword puts the clvl requirement up at 67, so you'll have to go probably all the way through Nightmare without it equipped; but once your merc his lvl 67 you can get the Holy freeze going. The Might-aura mercs are found on Nightmare difficulty "Offense" type. This will add to your damage even more, while you still get a slowing effect (enemies slowed by 50%) and your merc gets some reasonably cold damage (85-90) on his attack.
Unfortunately, I can't find the aura-level for mercs, so I can't give you a number on how much this will help out your damage; but the benefit of Might ranges from DMG +40% at slvl1 to DMN+230% at slvl20. The +40% isn't bad; the +230% would be a real boon.
Sorry I'm not much of a help here.
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - Any1 - 08-26-2004
Ajax,Aug 26 2004, 07:09 AM Wrote:I really should have thought of this one before, but if the idea of a Holy Freeze merc appeals to you (and you have a significant resource base to draw upon) you can try finding a polearm with the "Doom" runeword. The Cham runeword puts the clvl requirement up at 67, so you'll have to go probably all the way through Nightmare without it equipped; but once your merc his lvl 67 you can get the Holy freeze going. The Might-aura mercs are found on Nightmare difficulty "Offense" type. This will add to your damage even more, while you still get a slowing effect (enemies slowed by 50%) and your merc gets some reasonably cold damage (85-90) on his attack. A Might merc with a Doom weapon would be very nice. Unfortunately I don't have that significant a resource to draw upon, especially when it comes to runes. However, Reaper's Toll
Unfortunately, I can't find the aura-level for mercs, so I can't give you a number on how much this will help out your damage; but the benefit of Might ranges from DMG +40% at slvl1 to DMN+230% at slvl20. The +40% isn't bad; the +230% would be a real boon.
Sorry I'm not much of a help here.
(unique Thresher) is cheaper alternative with the "33% Chance To Cast Level 1 Decrepify On Striking" modifier.
The Might merc has slvl 20 at clvl 98. Since clvl 17 Might adds 200% ED, and is achievable in the 80's clvl range, that's the goal I usually set for my ACT-2 mercs.
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - adeyke - 08-26-2004
Quote:Enigma-- (+750~775 Defense)
in average Sacred Armor this gets you: 1318
Gloom-- (+200~260% Enhanced Defense)
in average Sacred Armor this gets you: 1412
Stone-- (+250~290% Enhanced Defense)
in average Sacred Armor this gets you: 1574
I'm not sure how you're getting those values.
Enigma in a normal-quality sacred armor has from 1237 to 1375 defense. The range is based on both the variable base defense and the variable defense bonus. The average would be 1306. Yours is close enough.
Gloom in normal-quality sacred armor has 1461-2160 defense, average of 1810.5. Your 1412 is much too low.
Stone in normal-quality sacred armor has 1704-2340 defense, average of 2022. Your 1574 is again much too low.
You also missed one of the highest-defense runewords: Prudence (MalTir). While it only has 140-170% ED, it has self-repair, so it can be used in ethereal armour. That makes the 140-170% approximately equivalent to 260-305% ED. Prudence in a normal-quality ethereal sacred armor has 1752-2430 defense, average of 2091.
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - Ajax - 08-27-2004
You are right. I have two faults to confess to: (1) I cut corners by taking the average value of Sacred Armor and (2) I forgot to add the base armor class to the "% enhanced Defense" armors. That's why the Enigma is "close enough;" it has + to defense not a % enhancement. *sigh* I screwed up, you are right. I apologize to anybody who's read this thread. Again, my bad.
For completeness' sake, this is how I got my numbers. First, I took the average AC for Sacred Armor. From the Arreat Summit, Sacred Armor has a AC of 487-600. Assuming sacred armors are generated on a normal distribution, the average AC will be 543.5 (and I rounded down to 543, I believe).
I then used this value and enhanced it with the highest-end defense modifiers. (So much for my consistency :() In Enigma this gets (543+775=1318). This number should be a good enough ballpark as you pointed out; the reason being it is not a % enhanced defense modifier, so I didn't screw it up so much as I just approzimated the Sacred Armor AC.
The others are way off. Take, for example, Gloom. My math for Gloom was to take the base AC (543) and multiply it by the modifier (2.6) which gives the enhancement alone, not the whole AC for the item! :-( (543*2.6=1411.8 or 1142). This should be added to the base AC to get the ballparked figure (here, 1142+543=1955)
That's both me cutting corners as well as simply not thinking at 0300 when I was posting! Thanks for the correction!
And as to Prudence, here I also missed that one. (I just scrolled through the runewords and looked at the defense enhancements; I forgot about doing ethereal armor with the self-repair). Trusting your numbers (better yours that mine!!!) that would put it in competition with the highest-defense armors in the game. Good Eye!
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - adeyke - 08-27-2004
No worries. My approach actually does cut corners, too. The best way to get the average defense would be to find the average base defense, the average enhanced defense, and the average +defense and calculate the defense of an armour with those. Rounding issues aside, this would give a correct result. My (min+max)/2 is a bit quicker, and, while not perfectly accurate, it's also "close enough."
(The reason for the inaccuracy is that, since you're multiplying a uniformly random variable by another uniformly random variable, you end up with something that's no longer uniform, but skewed towards one side. The (min+max)/2 only really works if the distribution is symmetrical).
Another thing about the defense of armour is superior quality. If you have a sacred armor with any enhanced defense on the item itself (not the sockets or runeword bonuses), the "base" defense will always be 601. That really increases the defense. It also makes the repair costs skyrocket, but that's not a problem with Prudence. You do still have to find the superior item, though.
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - Ajax - 08-28-2004
Quote:In 1.10 Holy Shield's defence bonus applies to all gear not just the shield
Didn't know that one, thanks.
Quote:Also 3 second pulses have been changed to 2 second pulses and of course auras don't stick (or hardly stick) so aura flashing is gone
Hm.... I knew that the 3 second pulses had been made more frequent and therefore aura "sticking" was not practical. But is it really aura "sticking" if you have multiple auras active at once? It seems like two different situations here. You're not switching back and forth between auras--both are active simultaneously. And the aura rotation beneath your feet is only an in-game reminder you have multiple auras active. (Just like if a Barb. you're partied with casts Battle Orders on your Paly. Your extra HP and Mana don't go away when the Battle Orders graphic at your feet cycles with your own aura.)
I just assumed it should be similar with auras from the runewords. Am I mistaken here? (I have low confidence in my understanding of game mechanics after my previous post about the AC of the runewords :))
Anyone?
Natural Defiance vs. Exile Defiance - gekko - 08-28-2004
You're correct -- if multiple auras are granted from runewords, they will stack, just as if you have two allied pallys using different auras at the same time.
What doesn't stack are multiple auras being actively rotated by one pally. In previous patches, a pally could turn on holy freeze to "tag" enemies with the chill effect, then switch to fanatacism to rip through the now slowed monsters. Or swap between concentration and defiance. Nowadays, switching auras during combat is usually a waste of effort -- you can only have the benefits of one aura at a time.
Such a distinction is important for a build such as a defiant, because one of the "neccessary" skills -- defiance -- is not an offensive aura. The lack of any offensive aura takes a huge bite out of a pally's effectiveness. In 1.09 defiants could combat this by "flashing" between defiance and, say, concentration.
[rant]
It's one of the reasons the new runewords that grant auras are, in my opinion, so icky. Blizzard simultaneously tells pallys they may only benefit from one aura at a time... unless they have access to the new runewords. So we've made things tougher, but provided an obvious loophole and tied it to items we know will be heavily duped. Bravo.
[/rant]
gekko