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Priestly Diversions - Dyntheos - 11-25-2004
Whoops! I must've hit Edit instead of Reply. Sorry, I'm still getting used to the new buttons and things.
Dyntheos had posted that he was making a Night Elf Priestess and asked some questions about priest talents. My sincerest apologies. -- MongoJerry
Priestly Diversions - MongoJerry - 11-25-2004
Quote:I've read countless topics on builds and what not for talents and which is best, for what, most detailing Holy as useless.
Blizzard overhauled the Holy tree in the open beta patch, making the tree suddenly very useful. I suspect that what you've read is old information or information written by crotchety inflexible people. There is some variety to builds, but generally they come down to a Holy-Discipline spec or a Shadow-Discipline spec. In short, Holy-Discipline is far and away the best for group and instance play. Shadow-Discipline spec is best for solo and PvP situations. As I am an addicted instance runner, I spent most of my time Holy-Discipline speced. Remember, though, that you can retrain talents if you're willing to put up the cash, so don't be too worried about trying something that you fear you might regret later.
Priestly Diversions - Lissa - 11-26-2004
MongoJerry,Nov 24 2004, 06:34 PM Wrote:Blizzard overhauled the Holy tree in the open beta patch, making the tree suddenly very useful. I suspect that what you've read is old information or information written by crotchety inflexible people. There is some variety to builds, but generally they come down to a Holy-Discipline spec or a Shadow-Discipline spec. In short, Holy-Discipline is far and away the best for group and instance play. Shadow-Discipline spec is best for solo and PvP situations. As I am an addicted instance runner, I spent most of my time Holy-Discipline speced. Remember, though, that you can retrain talents if you're willing to put up the cash, so don't be too worried about trying something that you fear you might regret later.
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Well, Holy still needs some work to make it really worth going more than 10 to 15 deep. Discipline, on the other hand, is very worth going 21 deep into. Prior to launch, a lot of Priests got talking on the Priest board about what would be a good setup for a Priest now, I came up with something like the following (a good number agreed with me on it too):
Holy Tree
Improved Renew (5/5)
Spiritual Speciality (can't remember, the name, but the one that gives +10% to healing spells, 5/5)
Shadow Tree
Spirit Tap (5/5)
Black Out (3/5)
Improved SW:P (2/2)
Mind Flay (1/1)
Discipline Tree
The decreased chance of stun talent (5/5)
Improved PW:F (2/2)
Improved PW:S (3/3)
The one that decreases the cast cost of instant spells by 10% (5/5)
The one the increases mana by 10% (5/5)
Inner Focus (1/1)
This will complete the Talents at 51 and leave you with 9 points to play with going toward level 60. You can pick up the reduced threat from healing, Improved Mana Burn, or what have you with those 9 points to tailor your character to the way you want to go.
Priestly Diversions - MongoJerry - 11-27-2004
Lissa,Nov 26 2004, 08:57 AM Wrote:Well, Holy still needs some work to make it really worth going more than 10 to 15 deep. Discipline, on the other hand, is very worth going 21 deep into. Prior to launch, a lot of Priests got talking on the Priest board about what would be a good setup for a Priest now, I came up with something like the following (a good number agreed with me on it too):
I disagree with you completely. I had 30 points holy, 21 discipline (enough to get Inner Focus). The Shadow tree is boolean for me. Either you're a shadow priest and spend 31+points in it or you should spend nothing in it. Since literally every priest I saw in the last two weeks of the beta who were involved in high level instances and raid instances had Spirit of Redemption, something that requires a minimum of 21 points spent in the holy tree, I think plenty of others would disagree with you as well. Improved Prayer of Healing is a godsend considering how much aoe there is at the high levels, and knocking a half second off the cast time on Greater Heal with Master Healer in addition to improving Greater Heal's mana efficiency using Improved Healing makes a huge difference.
Priestly Diversions - Lissa - 11-27-2004
MongoJerry,Nov 26 2004, 11:02 PM Wrote:I disagree with you completely. I had 30 points holy, 21 discipline (enough to get Inner Focus). The Shadow tree is boolean for me. Either you're a shadow priest and spend 31+points in it or you should spend nothing in it. Since literally every priest I saw in the last two weeks of the beta who were involved in high level instances and raid instances had Spirit of Redemption, something that requires a minimum of 21 points spent in the holy tree, I think plenty of others would disagree with you as well. Improved Prayer of Healing is a godsend considering how much aoe there is at the high levels, and knocking a half second off the cast time on Greater Heal with Master Healer in addition to improving Greater Heal's mana efficiency using Improved Healing makes a huge difference.
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I disagree that Holy has been truly improved to make it worth going that deep. Likewise, the build I listed allows you to do a lot from soloing, to PvP, to instance runs.
As to a couple of those additions, if half a second is that much that you need, then you're not timing your spells right. Also, if Spirit of Redemption kicks off, you're party is already in more trouble than they realize and once you die, the party is likely going to follow you. Improved PoH is nice, but you definitely don't need it to be successful (in truth, I have rarely needed to use it in instances and the only one I haven't ran are the raids and scholo).
The reason I state putting those points into Shadow is for an additional combat spell that can be easily cast early on and the extra 2 ticks of damage on SW:P is very useful.
If a Shadow Priest can effectively heal while having no Holy talents (and just healing in an instance, not slipping into damage mode), they can be just as effective as a Holy Priest, slightly less efficient (which I did in Stratholme). Simply put, the changes they made to Holy lower down are not worth going that deep IMO (and I have tried them and found them lacking).
Priestly Diversions - MongoJerry - 11-27-2004
Quote:As to a couple of those additions, if half a second is that much that you need, then you're not timing your spells right.
It's the difference between having Greater Heal being worthless and being somewhat useful. That half-second really does make a difference. Now, if they would just make it a full second reduction, then I'd use greater heal all the time.
Quote:Also, if Spirit of Redemption kicks off, you're party is already in more trouble than they realize and once you die, the party is likely going to follow you.
How many times have you been in a battle where your group is *almost* able to win it but not quite? After all, if it was a hopeless battle, you or your paladin/shaman would have run long before you got in trouble. But in this case, you *thought* you could make it but that extra add came in or you figured just a little wrong. So, your group is taking a pounding and you die and can't quite give the group that additional heal they need. But wait! What if you could send off a last ditch Prayer of Healing and cast Renew on everyone before you die? Yes, Spirit of Redemption can save so many party wipes that way.
Quote:Improved PoH is nice, but you definitely don't need it to be successful (in truth, I have rarely needed to use it in instances and the only one I haven't ran are the raids and scholo).
You don't need it to be successful, but it's extremely nice, and considering the other Holy talents have now become useful, it's no longer a waste of talents to go get it anymore.
Quote:If a Shadow Priest can effectively heal while having no Holy talents (and just healing in an instance, not slipping into damage mode), they can be just as effective as a Holy Priest, slightly less efficient (which I did in Stratholme).
Yes, but since a Shadow Priest can't effectively heal while having no Holy Talents in an instance, that point is moot. You must've always had at least one secondary healer with you and maybe more covering for you. Like I said, for me it's boolean. If you're soloing and/or PvPing, then you should go shadow/discipline. If you're running instances and raids, you should go holy/discipline. If you're PvPing as a holy priest, you're not as effective as a PvPer as you should be. If you're running instances or raids as a shadow priest, you're hampering your party. It only costs a little bit of gold to switch between the two, so there's no reason to hamper yourself in any situation by spreading out the talent points.
Anyway, that's neither here nor there. The original discussion was whether Holy Tree was useful or not, and the fact that we're talking about it as a place where *some* people could reasonably choose to put talent points means that it is indeed useful now. Some people might prefer shadow over holy and some might like holy over shadow, but holy is no longer the ridiculous tree it once was.
Priestly Diversions - Lissa - 11-28-2004
MongoJerry,Nov 27 2004, 04:51 PM Wrote:It's the difference between having Greater Heal being worthless and being somewhat useful. That half-second really does make a difference. Now, if they would just make it a full second reduction, then I'd use greater heal all the time.
A full second would be nice, but even that reduction isn't necessary. If you plan effectively, you can use GH all the time occasionally throwing out a Flash with Renew to give you the little extra time you need to get GH off. I used it all the time and quite effectively without needing the reduced cast time.
Quote:How many times have you been in a battle where your group is *almost* able to win it but not quite? After all, if it was a hopeless battle, you or your paladin/shaman would have run long before you got in trouble. But in this case, you *thought* you could make it but that extra add came in or you figured just a little wrong. So, your group is taking a pounding and you die and can't quite give the group that additional heal they need. But wait! What if you could send off a last ditch Prayer of Healing and cast Renew on everyone before you die? Yes, Spirit of Redemption can save so many party wipes that way.
If a single ADD shows up and that wipes the party or is getting you killed, you aren't using all your spells to their full potential. In the case of ADDs attacking you as the Priest you have Fade. With that, you should have enough time for the Warrior to get a taunt up and take back the agro management from you. Simply put, SoR is a safety net for sloppy play.
Quote:You don't need it to be successful, but it's extremely nice, and considering the other Holy talents have now become useful, it's no longer a waste of talents to go get it anymore.
Again, Improved PoH isn't needed. How many times did you actually need to use it? I can count on one hand the number of times I needed to use it. Likewise, PoH will garner you the most agro of any spell a Priest can cast.
Quote:Yes, but since a Shadow Priest can't effectively heal while having no Holy Talents in an instance, that point is moot. You must've always had at least one secondary healer with you and maybe more covering for you. Like I said, for me it's boolean. If you're soloing and/or PvPing, then you should go shadow/discipline. If you're running instances and raids, you should go holy/discipline. If you're PvPing as a holy priest, you're not as effective as a PvPer as you should be. If you're running instances or raids as a shadow priest, you're hampering your party. It only costs a little bit of gold to switch between the two, so there's no reason to hamper yourself in any situation by spreading out the talent points.
Wrong. As I stated previously, I have run BRS, BRD, Stratholme, and Temple under Shadow Spec (all the way to Shadowform and as high as I could go in Discipline with no Holy talents) and was quite successful. You do not have to be Holy spec, or even have any talents in Holy to be effective. Also, those times when I ran, the secondary healer was s'pose to be a Paladin and the Paladin wasn't casting any Healing spells, but using Seals and the like to increase agro on themselves and decrease agro on me and the other casters, thereby making me the only healer in the group.
Quote:Anyway, that's neither here nor there. The original discussion was whether Holy Tree was useful or not, and the fact that we're talking about it as a place where *some* people could reasonably choose to put talent points means that it is indeed useful now. Some people might prefer shadow over holy and some might like holy over shadow, but holy is no longer the ridiculous tree it once was.
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This is true. Holy was stupid before, but it still has a ways to go IMO. Holy Fire needs to be rethought seriously. The cast time reduction, Master Healer, needs to effect more spells than just Heal and GH, but should effect all timed healing spells and should decrease by a percentage instead of a given amount of time for as deep as it is in the tree. I would prefer to see a return of Combat Res and allow the Priest to be the only class capable of rezzing in combat due to a talent.
Priestly Diversions - MongoJerry - 11-28-2004
Lissa,Nov 27 2004, 11:47 PM Wrote:If a single ADD shows up and that wipes the party or is getting you killed, you aren't using all your spells to their full potential. In the case of ADDs attacking you as the Priest you have Fade. With that, you should have enough time for the Warrior to get a taunt up and take back the agro management from you. Simply put, SoR is a safety net for sloppy play.
Come on, Lissa. All wipes are due to sloppy play to begin with. We can stand here in our ivory towers and say "if you just play right, you wouldn't need this or that spell," but how often are priests called upon to make up for the blunders of others? Over the course of a several hour instance run, bad judgements are made, bad pulls are made, mistypes are made, etc., and it's always helpful to have contingincy plans in place. If you didn't believe that, you wouldn't want Combat Resurrection. After all, if your party plays perfectly, there wouldn't ever be a need for in-combat resurrection. SoR is one available contingency plan when all else fails for those fights that are *close*. It can save your party in the end and is darned useful.
Quote:Again, Improved PoH isn't needed. How many times did you actually need to use it?
"Need" is a funny word. I suppose if PoH were removed, I could get by without it. The same could be said of any spell. The real question is "How many times is PoH the best spell to use in a given situation?" And the answer I've found is, "a lot" as I've gone into the higher level instances. Basically, PoH your most mana efficient spell when you want to heal three or more people. It's a beautiful mana cost effective spell, especially when your party is being hit by lots of aoe attacks. Improved PoH helps even more, obviously.
Quote:I can count on one hand the number of times I needed to use it. Likewise, PoH will garner you the most agro of any spell a Priest can cast.
That's not a problem. You have to make a judgement call on when to use it, but it won't cause any more aggro than using flash heals on all the same people.
Quote:Wrong. As I stated previously, I have run BRS, BRD, Stratholme, and Temple under Shadow Spec (all the way to Shadowform and as high as I could go in Discipline with no Holy talents) and was quite successful. You do not have to be Holy spec, or even have any talents in Holy to be effective. Also, those times when I ran, the secondary healer was s'pose to be a Paladin and the Paladin wasn't casting any Healing spells, but using Seals and the like to increase agro on themselves and decrease agro on me and the other casters, thereby making me the only healer in the group.
Sorry, I point-blank don't believe that you were the solo healer in a 5-man party while shadow speced in a high level instance. What's more, I don't believe that you were the solo healer of the primary tank in a raid group as while shadow speced. No way. Maybe you were healing a secondary party in a raid group. That doesn't take much to do, but no way did you shadow spec and keep the raid's tank alive solo.
Priestly Diversions - Ajax - 11-29-2004
Dyntheos,Nov 24 2004, 05:08 PM Wrote:Whoops! I must've hit Edit instead of Reply. Sorry, I'm still getting used to the new buttons and things.
Dyntheos had posted that he was making a Night Elf Priestess and asked some questions about priest talents. My sincerest apologies. -- MongoJerry
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Like that quote? I referenced it just to jab at MongoJerry :-P hang in there bud, you'll get this admin thing under control soon! :-)
Anyway, I was hoping to ask a question about weapon choices for priests. I know many people use staves, but why? Is it not possible to get a good caster dagger or mace, and have like an orb, torch, or stein in your off-hand?
I ask because Phelot (Brasslock on the forums here) found a Stein while we were playing the other day (ask him about it, he's so proud!) and it fits nicely with his warlock dagger. And it looks so cool! So, are 1H weapons that inferior to staves that they aren't advised?
Thanks.
Priestly Diversions - MongoJerry - 11-29-2004
Ajax,Nov 28 2004, 05:19 PM Wrote:Anyway, I was hoping to ask a question about weapon choices for priests. I know many people use staves, but why? Is it not possible to get a good caster dagger or mace, and have like an orb, torch, or stein in your off-hand?
You'll see most priests using staves, because staves tend to have higher dps than one-handed maces or daggers and because the stats on staves are usually better than the combined stats on similar level one-handed weapons and off-hand items. However, that doesn't mean that the staff that *you* have at the moment is better than a one-hand/off-hand combination that you own. For example, Neriad used a Dire Nail of Spirit, a dagger found in the Sunken Temple, with an off-hand item for a few levels, because the combination was better than the staff she had at the time.
Also, it's a good idea to store away some one-handed weapons and off-hand items for situational flexibility. One neat thing that happened to me was when the Onyxia raid was added, it became clear that we all needed to stock up on a *lot* of fire resistance. Looking over some gear I had in the bank, I had a Magmus Stone that I had found in Blackrock Depths, which had +15 fire resistance and some spirit. So, I switched out my staff for that and a one-handed mace that gave a bonus to healing.
So in the end, use both! But yeah, you'll probably find yourself using staves most of the time.